do you have to be vegetarian to be hindu ?

[Riverwolf]

I'm not surprised by your view. Most flesh-eaters have a problem with the idea of vegetarianism.

I don't fall under that "most". I'm working on being a vegetarian, but I can't right now.

The "plants are alive" counter-point is old and trite. Plants don't defend their young and run from danger. Sure, I hear rubbish about plants enjoying nice music and the like but in the end they are not sentient. Killing and destroying plants for no reason is himsa, but so is punching a wall. Eating plants is the best and easiest way to avoid killing sentient life.

To me, life is life, sentient or not.

You seem to advocate killing in your post as though being acceptable because it is the way of nature. You wouldn't want to be killed would you?

I'd defend myself if a tiger wanted to eat me, but I wouldn't bear a grudge against it. After all, for all I know, I could be the last chance for the mother to feed her child, and if she doesn't kill me, the child could die.

Through death there is life.

Neither do chickens, pigs and other beasts of burden. You have the ability to WANT to live. So do all sentient animals. Plants do not have wants, desires, thoughts or any ideas about life and death.

So? Life is life. Besides, from what I've understood, most animals don't know about their own mortality. We're among the only animals (if not the only; I'm not sure) who understands our own mortality.

When I hear people justify flesh eating I get a few thoughts in my head.

1) They enjoy it and are therefore attached to it. People justify all sorts of dumb stuff (drugs, alcohol, illicit sex, nuclear bombs) because doing so suits them. Stopping living for yourself and something as small as an appetite.

I eat meat because it's what's around. I don't buy my own food. When I eat at a restaurant, I order vegetarian.

Besides, with one exception (sushi), my favorite foods aren't meat. And even sushi can be vegetarian.

2) They just don't get mercy. People who deny vegetarianism are probably, even if unseen, very violent people. How else can one justify the murder and torture of animals. We aren't dumb, we know what happens to them. Angels don't come kiss them to death in their beds. These animals are ripped to pieces like fabric. Give me a break, there is no justification. This is the only thing in the world that makes me say "I'm right and you are wrong"

I understand mercy. I don't kill anything with my own hands. You seem to be stereotyping, here.

3) They don't understand Atman and that all animals are our brothers. They view animals as commodities, just like slave owners saw their slaves. Shame!

I'm not quite at that level yet. You're basically saying I should be ashamed for not having a PH.D., yet. I'm working on it, and the farther I get, the farther I get from eating meat. One day, I'll be able to go fully into vegetarianism.

The way my disposition works, I can't just jump into something and expect results; I'd dash right back out. I need to take it slowly.

Please have mercy on all creatures. Please allow to live and let live. Please do not treat animals like machines. Please do not kill Gods beautiful creatures. Please stop putting yourself before other creatures. These lives aren't just animals, they are parents to other animals, they have family just like us. They aren't just animals, they are like us, someone with Atman.

Consider someone else, stop consuming animals!

Atman, i.e., Brahman, is in all things. ALL things. The rocks, the wall, the CD that just stopped playing on my player. Therefore, it includes plants, bacteria, insects, my food, myself, everything. That's what I keep reading in the Scriptures, at least when dealing with advaita.

Sorry, but trying to play to my emotions just pushes me further away. More so if you try to guilt trip me. IMO, guilt tripping is just an underhanded way to get someone to agree with you.

According to both science and spirituality, plants are alive. Therefore, they can be killed. Sentience has nothing to do with it.

You're not my guru, and you don't know me personally. Therefore, you are in no position to judge me or instruct me.

[Riverwolf]

Many Hindus are vegetarian for two or three days or even just one day of the week to make themselves feel good about themselves. Then on the other days they feast on meat like they have been fasting for months. I don't know if it's the taste of the meat or the feeling of deprivation they get when excluding meat. They have become codependent on meat consumption, they can't really part from it.

Meat is one of the primary sources of protein for humans, and therefore of energy. It's addictive in the same way that caffeine is.

If someone decides to stop eating meat, they need to know other forms of protein, or they'll just go back to meat.

[NetiNeti]

1) So? Life is life. Besides, from what I've understood, most animals don't know about their own mortality. We're among the only animals (if not the only; I'm not sure) who understands our own mortality.

2) I understand mercy. I don't kill anything with my own hands. You seem to be stereotyping, here.


3) You're not my guru, and you don't know me personally. Therefore, you are in no position to judge me or instruct me.

1) We are aware of animals mortality, therefore the burden to preserve life is on us.

2) Paying someone to kill is as bad as killing. This is what purchasing flesh is.

3) I am not your guru. I do, however, have the right to advocate against the killing of animals just as I have the right to advocate against the killing of humans. I fight for their rights in the secular world as well as non-secular. I do feel I am in a position to judge though. I would not stand idle as my family or friends were killed. I would not stand by and let you be a victim of violence either. The fact of the matter is that animals are being killed and I will always speak up against those who say it is o.k.

This is not a personal attack. You are my spiritual brother. I just want people to see that compassion is crucial during the Kali-yuga.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Riverwolf:

I'm not sure where you're getting your information on nutrition. Protein is not a source of energy. It is a bone and muscle builder. Carbohydrate is the primary source of energy. The average meat eater gets about 300% of the daily protein requirement. Canada's Food guide recommends 6-8 servings of fruit/vegetables.

Meat is not at all addictive in the same way caffeine is. Withdrawal from caffeine includes headaches, restlessness, drowsiness, and general discomfort. There are no such physical withdrawal symptoms from meat.

I would encourage a browse on these things on line, so you don't just believe what I have said, and I shall do same. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...php?p=63906295

Aum Namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

Plants don't have cute faces and round human like eyes...

Perhaps they are rooted to the ground and can not run as other beings run when in danger. But some plants will respond to being cut upon...don't they?

Sap is the blood and it runs from a one hundred year old tree, just as it does from a 1 year old calf.

Some of the oldest beings on this rock are trees...with deep connected relationships to each other.

Everything we do impacts others...if we eat bread...the soil that was upturned to make the wheat killed the gophers and other living animals as the plow ran through the field....and the innocent children of the mouse as they lay in shallow burrows within the corn were taken as the field was turned over.

Just because you do not know of this fact, doesn't make their death any less.

Every person on this planet leaves an undeniable footprint...

I am not saying we should not try to avoid killing things and eating them. We should avoid killing things as best we can.

But, I am saying that every life...wether it has a face like ours or not...is precious.

I am concerned when one would be so quick to judge a meat eater or other person based on their level of spiritual ability to decline such things, but would have to be consuming some sort of life to be here.

I consume the grass which consumed the cow....which consumed the grass which consumed me.


We each have a price upon our head...an amount we cost to be here. Be it plants, small animals that are knocked dead by the plow...or even the large bovines which fill our planet with methane and eat the starving masses potential food/grain.

A recent United Nations report entitled Livestock's Long Shadow concludes that eating meat is "one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global". The report finds that eating meat causes almost 40 per cent more greenhouse-gas emissions than all the cars, trucks, ships and planes in the world combined.


Meat is a food choice, a last resort. The amount it takes to feed one cow to slaughter could feed many dozen starving people...and that cow itself can only feed few.

Our family is conscientiously avoiding all meat, and not just because we are Dharmists...but because we don't want our decision of a casual food choice to encourage increased population of cattle. As more cows mean less cheap grain would be available for the world's hungry.

Just do the best you can.<3

[NetiNeti]

P



1) I am concerned when one would be so quick to judge a meat eater or other person based on their level of spiritual ability to decline such things, but would have to be consuming some sort of life to be here.


2) Our family is conscientiously avoiding all meat, and not just because we are Dharmists...but because we don't want our decision of a casual food choice to encourage increased population of cattle. As more cows mean less cheap grain would be available for the world's hungry.

Just do the best you can.<3

1) Interesting point. I will ponder upon it
2) Well said and very accurate. Good for you, my friend!

[Riverwolf]

Plants don't have cute faces and round human like eyes...

Perhaps they are rooted to the ground and can not run as other beings run when in danger. But some plants will respond to being cut upon...don't they?

Sap is the blood and it runs from a one hundred year old tree, just as it does from a 1 year old calf.

Some of the oldest beings on this rock are trees...with deep connected relationships to each other.

Everything we do impacts others...if we eat bread...the soil that was upturned to make the wheat killed the gophers and other living animals as the plow ran through the field....and the innocent children of the mouse as they lay in shallow burrows within the corn were taken as the field was turned over.

Just because you do not know of this fact, doesn't make their death any less.

Every person on this planet leaves an undeniable footprint...

I am not saying we should not try to avoid killing things and eating them. We should avoid killing things as best we can.

But, I am saying that every life...wether it has a face like ours or not...is precious.

I am concerned when one would be so quick to judge a meat eater or other person based on their level of spiritual ability to decline such things, but would have to be consuming some sort of life to be here.

I consume the grass which consumed the cow....which consumed the grass which consumed me.


We each have a price upon our head...an amount we cost to be here. Be it plants, small animals that are knocked dead by the plow...or even the large bovines which fill our planet with methane and eat the starving masses potential food/grain.

A recent United Nations report entitled Livestock's Long Shadow concludes that eating meat is "one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global". The report finds that eating meat causes almost 40 per cent more greenhouse-gas emissions than all the cars, trucks, ships and planes in the world combined.


Meat is a food choice, a last resort. The amount it takes to feed one cow to slaughter could feed many dozen starving people...and that cow itself can only feed few.

Our family is conscientiously avoiding all meat, and not just because we are Dharmists...but because we don't want our decision of a casual food choice to encourage increased population of cattle. As more cows mean less cheap grain would be available for the world's hungry.

Just do the best you can.<3

Thanks. I needed that. ^_^

Good news is, I'm getting closer to being a full vegetarian according to the Scriptures. Pork has lost its taste for me, and chicken is starting to.

[PARAM]

Animals are always needed but many flesh eaters have things to say to justify themselves, many people are dying starving, cost of food is rising, and we have lakhs of ton of foodgrains rotting, it's not animals who are responsible for this.

We cannot just blame monkeys for rising prise of fruits, nor any other for anything, we have a culture for this.

People do not have to become vegetarian to be a Hindu, there are many NV sects in Hinduism, but NV is strictly avoided as Tamsik in every Dharm Granth.

[NayaSurya]

Perhaps you having rotting grain in your country...but here in the U.S. we have a program in which the government buys up the surplus grain and distributes it to the poor and hungry.

But, because of increased grain uses such as cows and alternative fuels....not to mention the new laws on our fed reserves of grain, our country has lost much of it's surplus.

Animals here are responsible for much of our problems...for creating so much methane and for taking surplus grain. Grain which could not only feed our hungry, but others...as it once did.

http://www.commodityfoods.org/about_acda.php

http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...d-supply_N.htm


"U.S. government food surpluses have evaporated because, with record high prices, farmers are selling their crops on the open market, not handing them over to the government through traditional price-support programs that make up for deficiencies in market price.


Worldwide, food prices have risen 45&#37; in the past nine months, posing a crisis for millions, says the United Nations' Food and Agriculture Organization.

Because of the current economics of food, and changes in federal farm subsidy programs designed to make farmers rely more on the markets, large U.S. reserves may be gone for a long time.

The upshot: USDA has almost no extra food to supplement the billions in cash payments it spends to combat hunger at home and in developing nations."

Oh, and I do not blame ignorant filthy animals for this...I blame the humans...who continue to eat massive quantities of these creatures in places such as McDonalds and Burger King...eating there almost daily.

As I said before...we do not eat these things: "because we don't want our decision of a casual food choice to encourage increased population of cattle."

This problem rests upon the humans who breed and slaughter these animals and the humans so quick to consume.

[NayaSurya]

I think this story would be pertinent to this conversation.

One time, one of my sons was born critically ill. His lungs were ruptured down the center and I was at Ronald McDonald House in louisville. This is a hotel for parents of children staying at the hospital. McDonald's has a good side and it rests upon this charity.

While there, a black car pulls up and out of it comes about eight Amish. Their child had drowned in a bucket of milk and was barely clinging to life right alongside my own son.

I was surprised to see that these devoted beings had each, in their hand, a McDonald's value meal. But, we became very good friends of the Father of this baby. What I discovered is that even the Amish are allowed to ride in cars...eat McDonald's if this is the only food available.

It made sense to me...these folks had no way to eat anything else...and they had to use a car to ride around the city.

So perhaps this is logical for everyone? We do what we can. Perhaps it's not always feasible to give up a certain food...or foods. Perhaps we just don't have the time or ability.

We do what we can...the very best we can. What else can we do?<3