Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14

Thread: Buddha and Shiva

  1. #1

    Buddha and Shiva

    MahaHrada

    Namaste,

    we can use this thread.

    Not only about Kalacakra.

    ok, you have post about many Great Rinpoche says about we must refuge only to the Buddha, and not Brahma, Indra, Vishnu and Shiva.

    let me answer this

    Even in Buddhism, refuge in the name of Buddha is not the final or true refuge.

    what is the Buddha ? is Shakyamuni ? which Shakyamuni ? prince Siddharta ? who has already pass away ?

    yes Sakyamuni , prince Siddharta !

    but problem is even Sakyamuni. Can you said Sakyamuni is one ? if one, one what ?

    Because different peoples have different opinion and understanding about Sakyamuni, even they learn from same text.

    If they said "No, Sakyamuni from Buddhist is same, only one."

    so if only one, please answer me, "So ever one in Buddhism is already enlightened ??? because you said Sakyamuni Buddha for everyone is same."
    "If same, why so many Buddhist student have different explain about Sakyamuni ? like Theravada and Mahayana, they have different ways to explain this Buddha.
    also if same, why some student need understand again about Sakyamuni from your teaching? "

    So, i said : refuge to the Buddha and anythings is not the FINAL
    that is only DRAMA.

    so what the different of word Buddha and Shiva ?

    the theory about supreme refuge is not appear again now.

    acctually unenlightened people only refuge to their mind !

    Buddha, Shiva, whatever is only product of their mind.

    Namo Buddhaya is only a ship, only a way, only a tools.

    said Buddha is superior better than ABC, or ABC is superior better than Buddha is only tools to make student have a faith !

    that is the first step only, dont be stuck there!

    OM. VAJRA. VISHNUYA. SVAHA
    OM. VAJRA. GARUDA. CALE CALE. HUM PHAT


    OM. AMOGHA VAIROCANA. MAHA-MUDRA. MANI PADMA JVALA PRAVARTTAYA. HUM

    Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
    Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
    Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
    Tejasvi Nau-Adhii-Tam-Astu Maa Vidviss-Aavahai |
    Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||


  2. #2
    Join Date
    November 2007
    Age
    67
    Posts
    844
    Rep Power
    560

    Re: Buddha and Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by shian View Post
    MahaHrada

    Namaste,

    we can use this thread.

    Not only about Kalacakra.

    ok, you have post about many Great Rinpoche says about we must refuge only to the Buddha, and not Brahma, Indra, Vishnu and Shiva.

    let me answer this

    Even in Buddhism, refuge in the name of Buddha is not the final or true refuge.

    what is the Buddha ? is Shakyamuni ? which Shakyamuni ? prince Siddharta ? who has already pass away ?



    so what the different of word Buddha and Shiva ?

    the theory about supreme refuge is not appear again now.

    acctually unenlightened people only refuge to their mind !

    Buddha, Shiva, whatever is only product of their mind.

    Namo Buddhaya is only a ship, only a way, only a tools.

    said Buddha is superior better than ABC, or ABC is superior better than Buddha is only tools to make student have a faith !

    that is the first step only, dont be stuck there!
    Dear Shian,

    For the third time please try to understand i am only describing the teaching of the Gurus of Vajrayana and why they think that it is praiseworthy to show other deities of the Hindu religion in a humiliated position, i have not invented this nor do i belive in any teaching like that. If you have objections to these tachings don´t tell them to me, tell this to the masters of Vajrayana, that would be a good idea.
    In Vajrayana the objects of Refuge is not only the historical Buddha it is the Buddhas,Gurus, Mandalas of Yidams (istha) and Dakinis.
    The Hindu Gods are described as worldly gods still under the influence of Samsara, as you can see this also include Shiva Brahma and Vishnu and certainly also Ganesha.

    They are considered impure because of their belief in a self (Atman) and an ultimate ground of being (brahman) instead of Non self and Emptiness. Therefore Vajrayana Gurus belive they, and the corresponding impurities in the nadis of the subtle body, have to be subjugated and humiliated and purified.

    "The Matam Rudra which clings to the ‘I’ will be dispelled, All forms of worldly happiness and pain, the Egoism of Speech (Akar Rudra) will be destroyed. The saying ‘this is mine’ of anything, the mental ‘I’ (Khatram Rudra) is freed. The true nature and distinguishing attributes of a Rudra Which is manifest outwardly, exists inwardly, and lies hidden secretly, In short all fifty-eight Rudras, with their hosts will be destroyed completely.
    [...]
    Unless the power of the Buddhas is exerted to subjugate the Rudra, the Faith of Buddhas will cease to spread and will degenerate. That body which has committed such violent outrages on every other being, must be made to suffer the agonies of being hurt by weapons wielded by avengers. If he is not made to feel the consequences of his deeds, the Jinas who have proclaimed the Truth will be falsified. He is not to be destroyed but to be subdued."
    [..]
    "Assume the forms and sexes of Chenrezi and Dolma (Avalokita and Tara) and subdue the enemy by assuming the shapes of the deities Horse-mane and Sow’s head (Hayagriva and Vajravarahi)."


    In case you have doubts that Rudra in this text means Shiva:

    Buddha Marmedzad having revealed this to him, the king wished to see whether this was the Rudra referred to in the prophesy. So he collected his army of rakshasas and went to engage in battle with the demon force.
    Matam Rudra was very angry and said:
    "I am the Great Invincible One, who is without a peer, I am Ishvara Mahadeva (The Great God, Lord Shiva).The four great kings of the four directions are my vassals,The eight different tribes of spirits are my slaves,I am the Lord of the whole world.Who is going to withstand and confront me?

    The Golden Rosary of the Lotus-born

    There are many more other such stories that explain why the Hindu Gods are shown subjugated. This is only one example.
    The position of Vajrayana towards Hindu Dharma is very clear without a doubt Hindu Gods are considered worldly forces that have to be subjugated. I have no problem with that belief people can belief what they want, i only object to the public depiction of trampled hindu gods, and do not think that worship of such pictures and murti is a good thing.

    This is a contrinuation of the discussion in this thread:http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...lakshmi+mantra post #7 onwards.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 13 April 2010 at 05:03 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    March 2010
    Location
    A bone-littered nest in the bottom of a pit deep in the jungles of Amesbury, Massachusetts.
    Posts
    216
    Rep Power
    45

    Re: Buddha and Shiva

    If it contributes at all to this, even though it has little basis in scripture other than what I consider philosophical compatibility, I personally believe Buddha may very well have been an avatar of Shiva (despite the fact that Saivas traditionally don't believe in avatars, but than I can hardly call myself traditional) or at least that Shiva likely had a hand in his enlightenment. I especially find zen philosophy helpful for understanding Shiva.

    Also, I'm pretty sure Siddharta came from a Saiva family, which could be seen as either evidence of Shiva's influence on him or as disproving it and being the explanation for the similarities.

  4. #4

    Re: Buddha and Shiva

    Yes MahaHrada, i know what you mean

    but that kind of explanation is not for all Vjarayana.

    My Guru has very respect to Hindu,
    He teach the Dharma and Sadhana about Ganesha
    when He was visite Hindu temple, He was pay homage to all deitys.

    I also have Buddhist Text (Chinesse canon) that said Shiva is manifestasion of Ancient Great Buddha, even sravaka like Mahamaudgalyana, Sariputra etc is cannot understand the deep of Shiva's wisdom, and Sakyamuni was smile and said : "only Buddha and Buddha will undertsand"

    but about this others Vajrayana is not my bussiness, they also have right to have their own explanation about teachings of the Buddha.

    So... not all of Buddhist like that
    (i also have meet many Buddhist has many misunderstand about Hindu teachings about atman etc) they see the sect who appear in life time of Siddharta was representation of all HINDU.
    They dont know HINDU have many sect and lineage who have different each others.

    when they said about Hindu atta, they become very arrogant. So they talk about anatman with arrogant style... LoL

    Rich of phyloshopy is beautifull, but the bad side is will have many misunderstand.

    OM. VAJRA. VISHNUYA. SVAHA
    OM. VAJRA. GARUDA. CALE CALE. HUM PHAT


    OM. AMOGHA VAIROCANA. MAHA-MUDRA. MANI PADMA JVALA PRAVARTTAYA. HUM

    Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
    Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
    Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
    Tejasvi Nau-Adhii-Tam-Astu Maa Vidviss-Aavahai |
    Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||


  5. #5

    Cool Re: Buddha and Shiva

    Namaste All,

    I can say that

    Buddha was disciple of two brahmans Alar Kalam and Rudrak Ramputra, so he was indeed a Hindu himself

    During post medival era, in Bengal were Vajryan sect was in force, a new sect Sahajyan was rised from it, the Sahajyanis call themselves 'Nath' and for them Bhagwan Shiv was Aadi Nath (original Nath), this sect was a Shaiv sect indeed.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    369

    Re: Buddha and Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by shian View Post
    but that kind of explanation is not for all Vjarayana.
    --
    They dont know HINDU have many sect and lineage who have different each others.
    when they said about Hindu atta, they become very arrogant. So they talk about anatman with arrogant style... LoL
    Rich of phyloshopy is beautifull, but the bad side is will have many misunderstand.
    Namaste Shian

    I hold your simple sayings in high esteem.

    The story of Matam Rudra is a peculiar one. There are many parallels in the Rig Veda where Indra mercilessly makes pieces out of Vritta. Indra also kills Bheda. Indra kills Visvarupa. Indra-Vishnu together overcome Krsanu - the archer equated to death. The adityas are said to defeat Death (Shiva) by entering into Him. All these defeated heroes bear the names of Shiva. But scriptures also teach that it is Death that puts up the immortal -- who again is Shiva. Rig Veda sings of Shiva who is said to guide and nourish Indra in all His valiant fights. Rig Veda also often calls Indra as Shiva friend and also as Rudra synonymously.

    Similarly the Vairochana/Virochana and Samantabhadra (of Buddhism) are unmistakebly Shiva. The meaning of Samantabhadra as All Good-All pervasive is one with the meaning of Shiva. Guru Padmasambhava was also called Guru Zwiva (Shiva?).

    However, what makes the story of Matam Rudra dicey (and probably sectarian) is the proclamation of Matam Rudra "I am Mahadeva". And also the role of a dicey Kali who is supposed to have played in escalating the ego of Matam Rudra. That smells of sectarian tantra/purana reading but no Purana or Tantra of Hindu origin puts the words: "I am Mahadeva" in the mouth of vritta (Matam Rudra) or in the mouth of Manyu (wrath). In fact Indra wins by bringing Manyu, Agni, and Soma on His side. In fact vritta on his disintegration tells Indra "I was what you are now" . Hindu scriptures (veda) indicates that Indra kills the father upon His birth. Indra humiliates the Lord of Shakti. Brahmanas also teach that the All pervasiveness (vishnu) is destroyed on account of pride and that no one in this world is above pride as no one is outside of Vishnu. But the unborn consciousness (the revelaer of consciousness-the Self called Shiva) and the revealed conciousness (the Pragnya) are indestructible.

    Though all these seem to teach that even the post of Supreme Regulator in this world is not permanent, the Veda does not teach defeat of Ishwara Rudra. (There are expansions of 100 rudras that bring jara (disease) etc. and they are overcome by prayer to Rudra).

    I also have Buddhist Text (Chinesse canon) that said Shiva is manifestasion of Ancient Great Buddha, even sravaka like Mahamaudgalyana, Sariputra etc is cannot understand the deep of Shiva's wisdom, and Sakyamuni was smile and said : "only Buddha and Buddha will undertsand"

    It is somewhat like this. Jesus comes at horizon and Jesus followers forget the Eternal. Similarly Krishna coms on the horizon and some devotees do not mind killing off the eternal. It is mild to say that Shiva is a manifestation of ancient Buddha (who as a person or as the eternal Great is known only after the manifestation of physical Buddha). Intending to teach to oppose the temporal, Buddhism however, seems only to support upholding of temporal.

    Veda, as per my and our understanding, is devoid of such linkage to any birth. And the Lord of Veda is not manifestation of any temporal name-form.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 16 April 2010 at 12:50 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #7

    Re: Buddha and Shiva

    Namaste,

    the most important things is, the ways Many Ancient Gurus use to teach.

    Story like that is simbolism of mind.

    Not only in India, its also for Abrahamic religion

    but sadly , that kind of theory become a one "reason" to hate each others!

    ***

    Kalacakra, yesterday my friend opened his Vedic astrology book
    He tell me the text who said :

    "Oh God (Kalacakra) please protect me."

    Kalacakra is also the one of God name in Hindu.

    ***

    about Ganesh,

    Shiva is Mahakala,
    after Parvati "create" Ganesh, Mother Parvati said Ganesh must protect in front of door, dont let anyone enter the place during Mother Parvati still bathing.

    Shiva (Mahakal) was come to meet Mother Parvati
    that time Ganesh is not have discern choice who can enter, coz Mother already tell Him everyone cannot enter!

    So Shiva (Mahakal) was cuting Ganesh head !

    In Buddhist text also have TWO STORY by Tripitaka (canon) about Ganesh

    1. Ganesh is very mercyfull Deity , He cannot refuse what bhakta ask from Him. So even that is bad or good things , all is be grant to bhakta!
    So Mahakala was subjugating Ganesh.

    2. Shiva has two Great sons,
    first is Vinayaka (Ganesh) who get mission to lead ganas, to give all beings many obstacle and bad things
    second is Kumara ! who get mission from Shiva to give all beings good things! and become lead of Angels.

    (Kumara / Subrahmanyam and Ganesh was get important position in Garbhadhatu Mandala. Garbhadhatu Mandala is manifestation of Vairocana in this universe to do a karma (Saguna brahman) Kumara and Ganesh was Protector deitys to Buddhist)

    that time Avalokiteshvara was know about this (Ganesh give obstacles to Buddhist also - coz He must give do it to all beings)
    and Avalokiteshvara was become a female Vinayaka

    When Ganesh saw Her , He falling in love
    Female Vinayaka said : "Great King, i am is female Vinayaka (obstacle Goddess) , but i wearing a robe as Buddha student. I protect Buddha Dharma. If you want me to be your wife, you should do like Me first."

    Ganesh said : "Princess, we all have a nidana to know each other! so until now i will become a protector to Buddhist."

    and then they are smilling and hug each others.(I will post the image who was used by Japanesse Tantric , Ganesh and Female Vinayaka who originally is Avalokitesvara was hug each other)

    Off course this kind all of story is have deep meaning

    not mean Ganesh have worldly lust etc.

    In Buddhist also have teaching how to subjugatin Ganesh . Must be use Amrta Kundali Vidyarajah.

    this is seems like not right

    but why have that teachings?

    you should be know.

    In Hindu, a wrong people who do black magic can use one deitys as Isthadevata. (not mean this deitys is bad)
    this is the wrong of the people who use that deity to do bad things
    so some sect will have a sadhana to subjugating this deity WHO WAS CREATED BY THIS BAD PEOPLE MIND, EVEN THIS DEITY IS HAVE USED IN OTHER SECT AS A BENEVOLENT GOD!!!

    Please think, why this text said this God is good but another text said a sadhana about way to subjugating this God ???

    i think people who learn about India phylosophy must be know and understand this.

    OM. VAJRA. VISHNUYA. SVAHA
    OM. VAJRA. GARUDA. CALE CALE. HUM PHAT


    OM. AMOGHA VAIROCANA. MAHA-MUDRA. MANI PADMA JVALA PRAVARTTAYA. HUM

    Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
    Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
    Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
    Tejasvi Nau-Adhii-Tam-Astu Maa Vidviss-Aavahai |
    Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||


  8. #8

    Re: Buddha and Shiva

    This is Ganesh image , He hug Avalokitesvara (as female Vinayaka)
    this image is made from instruction by the canon !

    Here Ganesh is named as 大圣欢喜天 (Gerat Sacred Joyfull Deva)
    sanskrit originall text was said this name is

    MAHA ARYA NANDIKESVARA









    OM. VAJRA. VISHNUYA. SVAHA
    OM. VAJRA. GARUDA. CALE CALE. HUM PHAT


    OM. AMOGHA VAIROCANA. MAHA-MUDRA. MANI PADMA JVALA PRAVARTTAYA. HUM

    Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
    Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
    Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
    Tejasvi Nau-Adhii-Tam-Astu Maa Vidviss-Aavahai |
    Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||


  9. #9

    Re: Buddha and Shiva


    (

    t



    Namaste

    This is Ganesh image (Hindu style) ,
    my Guru was sign in foot of Ganesh!

    My Guru is have original lineage from Tibetan and also East Tantra (originally - India - China - Japan)

    What i say is not mean please become Buddhist. Absolutelly not!
    What i want is please let us peace and understand each others.













    OM. VAJRA. VISHNUYA. SVAHA
    OM. VAJRA. GARUDA. CALE CALE. HUM PHAT


    OM. AMOGHA VAIROCANA. MAHA-MUDRA. MANI PADMA JVALA PRAVARTTAYA. HUM

    Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
    Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
    Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
    Tejasvi Nau-Adhii-Tam-Astu Maa Vidviss-Aavahai |
    Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||


  10. #10

    Re: Buddha and Shiva

    The image above (Ganesha) in Hindu style, also used by us (Buddhist lineage) to install on the mandala.

    and under Ganesh foot is have chinesse text, that is read :
    "Om Ganapatiye Svaha"

    (the short Heart Mantra my sect use to Ganesh)

    My Guru also teach us Long Mantra of Ganesha :

    「嗡諾那諾那諾奴諾奴。嘎那巴底。嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎。嘎那巴底。主汝主汝,

    嘛奴巴雜,汝汝汝汝,嘎嘎打耶,嘎那巴底耶。梭哈。」

    that is from sanskrit , with Chinesse pronociation, but i not sure the sanskrit version , i only can translate the chinesse prounonciation :

    "Om NUONA NUONA NUONU NUONU - GANAPATI - GAN GAN GAN GAN GAN GAN GAN GAN - GANAPATI - ZHURU ZHURU (SURU SURU ?)- MANI PACA (MANIVAJRA?) - RU RU RU RU - GAGA TAYE (GANGAN DAYE??) - GANAPATIYE SVAHA"

    My Guru said Ganesh have many form, you can choose the one to visualisation

    He not advice we must use image of Ganesh from text, and dont use HIndu style.

    so, in my spritiual practice, i never have any CRASH bettwen Hindu and Buddhism by my own mind ! never.

    so somtimes i feel not really understand the reason what Hindu and Buddhist peoples use to slander each others!

    but i also know this is a normal phenomena in this dirty world.

    OM. VAJRA. VISHNUYA. SVAHA
    OM. VAJRA. GARUDA. CALE CALE. HUM PHAT


    OM. AMOGHA VAIROCANA. MAHA-MUDRA. MANI PADMA JVALA PRAVARTTAYA. HUM

    Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
    Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
    Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
    Tejasvi Nau-Adhii-Tam-Astu Maa Vidviss-Aavahai |
    Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •