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Thread: Meditation and Concentration

  1. #11
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    Re: David Godman explains enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Namste atanu,
    Yes, agreed...ultimately SELF has all, prana + all the senses. Yet my point was, if one contols prana and befriends prana, all else follows e.g. the mind. Yet I see your point.

    Now, one place I will need your POV is A+ha+m. I do not see this as mind. I see this as pure SELF, pure I.

    ----
    Control of Prana is a recommended practice since Prana is the vehicle of mind. However, mind is the owner of the vehicle. The whole evolution as per Lord Shiva (from Yoga Vashista) is as below:

    From Yoga Vashista

    -----Jiva is the vehicle of Consciousness (God), ego sense is the vehicle of jiva, intelligence of ego sense, mind of intelligence, prana of the mind, the senses of the prana, the body of the senses and motion is the vehicle of the body. Such motion is karma. Because prana is the vehicle for the mind, where the prana takes it the mind goes; but when the mind is merged in the spiritual heart, prana does not move; and if the prana does not move, the mind attains a quiescent state. Where the prana goes the mind follows it. even as the rider goes where the vehicle goes .
    ---------------------------------

    Ignorance of the fact that the Jiva is the Lord of the body makes the Jiva become a servant and follow the vehicles. Similarly mind often loses control to prana.

    As in a later paragraph Lord explains:

    When the mind is divested of its support, it remains alone in the self.

    ----------------------------
    Further

    The reflection of consciousness within itself is known as puryastaka. Mind alone is puryastaka, though others have described it more elaborately (as composed of the five elements, the inner instrument - mind, buddhi, egosense and citta - prana, the organs of action, the senses, ignorance! desire, and karma or action). It is also known as the linga-sarira, the subtle body. Since all these arise in consciousness, exist in consciousness and dissolve in consciousness, that consciousness alone is the reality.


    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 23 October 2007 at 12:54 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  2. #12
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    Re: Meditation and Concentration

    Quote Originally Posted by Znanna View Post
    Namaste,

    The breath is the unification of inside and outside, when breathing in and out is simultaneous, there is no difference.

    ZN
    Dear ZN,

    In deep sleep also there is no inside and outside yet one remains ignorant. Self realisation is just one step ahead yet very distant.

    That is not to mean that Pranayama is not adequate method, but eventually the one who is doing the Pranayama has to know what one is --- and remain un-forgetful.

    And this knowing will require neti-neti.

    Keno Upanishad

    IV-2. Therefore, these gods viz. Agni, Vayu and Indra excelled other gods, for they touched Brahman who stood very close and indeed knew first that It was Brahman.
    IV-3. Therefore is Indra more excellent than the other gods, for he touched Brahman who stood very close and indeed knew first that It was Brahman.
    IV-5. Then (follows) the instruction through analogy on the aspect of the individual self. (It is well-known that) the mind seems to attain to It, that It is continually remembered by the mind, and that the mind possesses the thought (regarding It).

    Indeed now I comprehend why breath methods, when devoid of mind involvement with God/Brahman, can only be preparatory. When the mind is full of Brahman/God it is Bhakti or Meditation. And when the mind is full of Brahma Jigyasa, it is enquiry.
    ----------------------------

    a) Mind is just one degree apart from the Self. It is the mind that is closest to Brahman and it must know first.
    b) It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.
    c) It is by mind that one falls and it is the mind which attains perfection.

    Regards

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 23 October 2007 at 01:04 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #13
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    Re: David Godman explains enquiry

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Control of Prana is a recommended practice since Prana is the vehicle of mind. However, mind is the owner of the vehicle. The whole evolution as per Lord Shiva (from Yoga Vashista) is as below:

    From Yoga Vashista

    Where the prana goes the mind follows it. even as the rider goes where the vehicle goes ...Om
    Yes, I concur - where prana goes mind follows...this is my experience, and the wisdom of the Chandogya Upanishad and Yoga Vashista. Re: Chandogya -Chapt 5.1 and 5.2 It nicely places prana as jyestha and shrestha. So when we view prana there are multiple views on this matter. Parana with apana, samana, vyana and udhana.
    Another view in this CHapter is Prana as Atma. Thge logic used in this stotra is Pra + an and with ana as food
    Pra is used as properly + an for breathing. Yet we also have ana, for food. This rishi of this mantra sugests
    prana and ana are insepreable and equates prana with atman, he who eats everything. FOr me it clearly indicates the importance of this life-force that accompanies breath, but not limited to it. This is rejoiced in the panchagni vidya Chapt 5.19.

    that said, and so I undersand your POV, you also suggesting the mind Owns Prana is that correct? and the 'rider' here is prana?

    re: Reflection - in Kasmir Shaivism the whole universe is a reflection [ pratibimbavada ]. It's siad its a refection of svatantrya, His will (some call this His independent will and some call this His freedom).
    The game that is played is we experience individual consciousness. The is the blemish or mala of 3's:
    • the feeling of incompleteness - so we get looking for more, yet we are whole-ness itself.
    • the experience of fragmented knowledge vs. whole knowledge
    • the impressions of pleasure and pain being real - with pleasure it offsets pain and we pursue it, yet it still binds
    When by hearing some sound , good or bad, you are carried away from your own nature... Spanda Karika 3.13

    What is that nature? the Fullness of SELF.


    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 October 2007 at 04:35 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #14
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    Re: Meditation and Concentration

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Dear ZN,

    In deep sleep also there is no inside and outside yet one remains ignorant. Self realisation is just one step ahead yet very distant.

    That is not to mean that Pranayama is not adequate method, but eventually the one who is doing the Pranayama has to know what one is --- and remain un-forgetful.

    And this knowing will require neti-neti.

    Keno Upanishad

    IV-2. Therefore, these gods viz. Agni, Vayu and Indra excelled other gods, for they touched Brahman who stood very close and indeed knew first that It was Brahman.
    IV-3. Therefore is Indra more excellent than the other gods, for he touched Brahman who stood very close and indeed knew first that It was Brahman.

    IV-5. Then (follows) the instruction through analogy on the aspect of the individual self. (It is well-known that) the mind seems to attain to It, that It is continually remembered by the mind, and that the mind possesses the thought (regarding It).


    Indeed now I comprehend why breath methods, when devoid of mind involvement with God/Brahman, can only be preparatory. When the mind is full of Brahman/God it is Bhakti or Meditation. And when the mind is full of Brahma Jigyasa, it is enquiry.

    ----------------------------

    a) Mind is just one degree apart from the Self. It is the mind that is closest to Brahman and it must know first.
    b) It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.
    c) It is by mind that one falls and it is the mind which attains perfection.

    Regards

    Om

    Namaste,

    The parallels or synchronicity of memes never ceases to amaze me.

    "neti-neti" seems analogous to "neither-neither" as proposed by Spare ... or is it just my imagination?

    The Neither-Neither principle asserts that there is no truth anywhere that is not balanced by an equally true opposite somewhere, and there is only perspective and circumstance to determine which seems more true at any given time. To apply this principle to conjuring, wait until you are absolutely positive something is true, then search for its opposite. When you find it, oppose it to your 'truth' and let them annihilate one another as well as they may.Any residue should oppose to its opposite, and so on until your truth has been dismembered and the passion converted into undirected energy - free belief. By applying the Neither-Neither we can gut the meaningless convictions that obsess us every day and use the power released to cause the changes we desire(38).
    http://www.spiralnature.com/magick/c...igservgod.html



    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

  5. #15
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    Post Re: David Godman explains enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post

    One who pavate -- is one God of Brihadarayanaka, and I understand it as one who breathes.
    Namaste Atanu and Yajvan,

    pavate (from pU) means being purified, clarified, or winnowed, or become pure, clear, or bright; pav means to go, move, flow, or blow; and pava is purification, winnowing, air, or wind.

    And pavate generally refers to the clarified flow of soma.

    The deity, however, would normally be pavamAna, which also means being purified or strained, or flowing clear, referring to soma or to vAyu, or to the son of agni and svAhA.

  6. #16
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    Re: David Godman explains enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    -------
    you also suggesting the mind Owns Prana is that correct? and the 'rider' here is prana?
    pranams,

    Namaskar Yajvan Ji

    From Yoga Vashista (This is Lord Shiva teaching Vashista muni)

    Jiva is the vehicle of Consciousness (God), ego sense is the vehicle of jiva, intelligence of ego sense, mind of intelligence, prana of the mind, the senses of the prana, the body of the senses and motion is the vehicle of the body. Such motion is karma. --------- when the mind is merged in the spiritual heart, prana does not move.-----

    Also: When the mind is divested of its support, it remains alone in the self.

    Also: The reflection of consciousness within itself is known as puryastaka. Mind alone is puryastaka,
    -------------------------

    Further from Brihadaraynaka

    He asked: 'Who is the one god and a half?'
    Yagnavalkya replied: 'He that blows.'

    9. Here they say: 'How is it that he who blows like one only, should be called one and a half (adhyardha)?' And the answer is: 'Because, when the wind was blowing, everything grew (' pa`vate`,atha katha\`ma\`dhyardha i\`ti |ya\`dasminnida\`{\m+} sa\`rvamadhyA\`rdhnot.hte\`nA\`dhyardha i\`ti )

    He asked: 'Who is the one god?'
    Yagnavalkya replied: 'Breath (prana), and he is Brahman (the Sutratman), and they call him That (tyad).'
    --------

    It does not, however, end here. Prana is the manifest aspect -- comprehensible. The inanimates apparently do not have prana yet they belong in consciousness -- the incomprehensible, which comprehends everything through its pratibimba called Mind.

    26. Sakalya said: 'And in what dost thou (thy body) and the Self (thy heart) abide?'

    Yagnavalkya said: 'In the Prana (breath).'
    Sakalya said: 'In what does the Prana abide?'
    Yagnavalkya said: 'In the Apana (down-breathing).'
    Sakalya said: 'In what does the Apana abide?'
    Yagnavalkya said:'In theVyana (back-breathing).'
    Sakalya said: 'In what does the Vyana-abide?'
    Yagnavalkya said: 'In the Udana (the out-breathing).'
    Sakalya said:'In what does the Udana abide?'

    Yagnavalkya said: 'In the Samana. That Self (Atman) is to be described by No, no! He is incomprehensible, for he cannot be comprehended; he is imperishable, for he cannot perish; he is unattached, for he does not attach himself; unfettered, he does not suffer, he does not fail.'

    --------------------------

    Finally, it is the Samana, which is the Atman -- ever present as pure consciousness, from which the MIND and UDANA both arise. The individual self (the heart) abides in Prana, which abides in Apana, which abides in Vyana, which abides in Udana, which abides in Samana – the Atman. So, in the tranquil equilibrium of 'Anuloma-Viloma' (or in the sandhi between 'out and in breath' or in 'kumbhaka'), the unmoving Samana is attained. Now the problem is who ascertains that I am this Samana in essence? If not the mind?

    True, the mind is pratibimba of Atman and as pratibimba it is unreal. Mind is Brahman, when the Mind is absorbed into the primordial:

    When the mind is divested of its support, it remains alone in the self. (Note: Isn't that the whole purpose of Yoga?)

    Kumbhaka (abidance in Samana) happens automatically on Brahma Jigyasa -- that is Jnana Yoga. Saying all this, I agree that all paths are valid, yet the mind itself has to know its root to be the Samana and abide/subside in Samana. Prana cannot know it without mind (consciousness).

    I hope that from this discussion, the distinction between Atman (transcedental, higher Brahman, incomprehensible truth of truth -- the seed of I) and Brahman (lower Brahman, pratayaksha truth - One God - "I am" or "I exist") will be evident. Supportless, the Mind is Atman alone from which is Udana and life. In Prana, as sutraatman, there are near infinite number of beads, but the higher Brahman is Advaita Shiva.

    Namaskar ZN,

    Spare's 'Neither Neither', which you have posted seems to me to be partial pratibimba of Shankara's purports (except that Shankara does not intend to use the power for any further use, as proposed by Spare). Shankara teaches that the certainty that the Brahman is Anantam, Jnanam, Anandam, etc. are subsequently opposed by Neti Neti (There is of course great fight over this).

    Namaskar Sarabhanga Ji,

    In the particular context, 'pavate' has been translated by most as 'One who blows or breathes', which is also supported by your possible choices. It is also pertinent that it is Prana who is the guardian of impure Soma and who assists Soma in purifying itself.


    Regards to all

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 24 October 2007 at 09:22 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #17
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    Re: David Godman explains enquiry

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga View Post
    Namaste Atanu and Yajvan,

    pavate (from pU) means “being purified, clarified, or winnowed”, or “become pure, clear, or bright”; pav means “to go, move, flow, or blow”; and pava is “purification, winnowing, air, or wind”.

    And pavate generally refers to the clarified flow of soma.

    The deity, however, would normally be pavamAna, which also means “being purified or strained, or flowing clear”, referring to soma or to vAyu, or to the son of agni and svAhA.
    Namaste sarabhanga & atanu (et.al)
    Yes, this congruent with my previous post [below] and thank you for pointing out the roots of this word.

    my past post:
    'So the 'one who pavate' = the one who is purified, unless we use it in the Rig Ved term for flows or ksarati, the flowing of soma. With that in mind, do you wish to connect pavate to SELF, or prana? just wondered...'

    I am not yet certain how atanu is positioning this, yet sure he will advise accordingly as I look to his posts to connect the dots. That is, I am figuring out atanu's post i.e.

    ' In the particular context, 'pavate' has been translated by most as 'One who blows or breathes', which is also supported by your possible choices. It is also pertinent that it is Prana who is the guardian of impure Soma and who assists Soma in purifying itself.' and how it fits... that is, Prana + pavate + Soma protector ( guardian). Prana was the main conversation topic. Pavate fits if the 'guardian' and then must be = to Prana.

    The 'connection point' , if we go back to the original discussion, is that prana and mind are tightly coupled. As goes prana so goes the mind.

    This I will have to await atanu's POV and his intent.

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #18
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    Re: David Godman explains enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ----
    The 'connection point' , if we go back to the original discussion, is that prana and mind are tightly coupled. As goes prana so goes the mind.

    This I will have to await atanu's POV and his intent.

    pranams,
    Namaste Yajvan,

    Why wait for my intent?

    Yes, the mind/prana link is a granthi. Mind must disengage from prana and experience:

    Om. I am neither the mind,
    -----
    I am neither the prana,
    -----
    I am eternal bliss and awareness -
    I am Shiva! I am Shiva!
    --------------

    That "I am is not prana", is the knowledge that mind has to experience before dissolving in the Self, like camphor, before Prana can fly away with the mind, leaving me dead.

    Else, if I am Prana, then I am never the immortal one, since as soon as Prana leaves I am dead.
    -------------------

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 24 October 2007 at 01:13 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  9. #19
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    Re: David Godman explains enquiry

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,
    Why wait for my intent? Yes, the mind/prana link is a granthi. Mind must disengage from prana and experience:

    Om. I am neither the mind,
    -----
    I am neither the prana,
    -----
    I am eternal bliss and awareness -
    I am Shiva! I am Shiva!
    --------------

    That "I am is not prana", is the knowledge that mind has to experience before dissolving in the Self, like camphor, before Prana can fly away with the mind, leaving me dead.

    Else, if I am Prana, then I am never the immortal one, since as soon as Prana leaves I am dead.
    -------------------
    Om
    Namaste atanu,
    the waiting was, how you were going to tie in pavate + Prana+pavamAna and if there was a need to bring pavate into the picture.

    Prana and mind explanations were sufficient IMHO.

    And re: That "I am is not prana", is the knowledge that mind has to experience. Yes, fine. And this is Aham, just I. Now we are back to the original conversation if we follow the bread-crumbs backwards

    Yet let me be over-detailed on this matter and I know you are not suggesting this... If this "I am is not prana" is a conscious pursuit, a internal conversation , a debate to get to Aham, then the road will be long. You use the optimal word, 'experience' - and that is key, that makes it all work.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 24 October 2007 at 08:09 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #20
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    Post Re: Meditation and Concentration

    Namaste,

    pavate is a reflexive form, and the implied action is intransitive ~ e.g. the soma itself is flowing clear, and the prANa itself is moving, and the wind is itself blowing (of its own nature).

    pavate particularly refers to intrinsic or natural purity ~ being itself purified, rather than purifying another.

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