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Thread: Stock Trading

  1. #31
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    Re: Stock Trading

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    WRT to the statement "This is the first time in my life i heard a Hindu use that word ---", i remind that Veda teaches us of Manyu, before Bible or Koran did.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    The english term "god fearing" is not at all comparable or can be associated with description in the hindu shastras that are concerned with the at times dangerous wrath of devatas that are symbolised by ugra murtis like Bhairava, Rudra, Narasimha, atharvana Bhadrakali etc.

    Unlike as within the monotheistic conception this wrath is not directed at the bhaktas, but at the obstacles and impediments that hinder their growth.

    Thats why rudra is asked to direct his wrath against exactly these obstacles. Thats why i never heard a hindu use the term "god fearing" of "Fear of god" before, especially not in the context of fear of punishment because of a Sin such as gambling. This mindset was only to be found in Islam Judaism and Christianity, but nowaday a lot of spirituality is only a copy of concepts of Islam and Christianity. So i really don´t mind, please keep your fears.

  2. #32
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    Re: Stock Trading

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~

    namasté

    If we look to the taittirīya upaniṣad , brāhmaṇanda vallī, we are offered the following:
    bhīśā 'smād vātaḥ pavate. bhīṣodeti sūryaḥ. bhīṣā' smādagniścendraśa mṛtuyr dhāvati pañcana iti
    What does this say? bhīśā is the key word in this śloka - it is defined as the act of frightening , fear of. It says,

    Thus (iti) through fear of Him the wind (pava) blows (vātaḥ) .
    Through fear ( or being afraid of Him) the sun (sūryaḥ ) rises.
    Being afraid of Him fire (agni) and indra function.
    And death (mṛtuyr) runs as the 5th (pañcana) or is the 5th item offered here.


    What is the widsom here? One cannot take this śloka separately without considering all of the brāhmaṇanda vallī. The wisdom is keyed in the previous śloka and suggests to us, When one finds (this) fearlessness ( or abhaya - fearlessness, absence or removal of fear , peace , safety , security ) as one's firm support then he has reached fearlessness. However, if one differs even slightly from this then for him there is fear.

    But what is 'differing slightly' ? It is the following: Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati - Fear is born of duality so says the bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad - puruṣavidha-brāhmaṇa, 2nd śloka.

    So, I can see both points made - from atanu and mahahrada... In ignorance there is no doubt duality and hence the possibility of fear. In union there is only one, and fearlessness presides.

    But what of the sun, death, the wind? Why does the upaniṣad offer this analogy? It has much to do with acting independently. Fear arises even in these great elements if it thinks it is seperate from the whole (bhūman) is my understanding.

    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 08 June 2010 at 11:25 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #33
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    Re: Stock Trading

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~

    namasté

    If we look to the taittirīya upaniṣad , brāhmaṇanda vallī, we are offered the following:
    bhīśā 'smād vātaḥ pavate. bhīṣodeti sūryaḥ. bhīṣā' smādagniścendraśa mṛtuyr dhāvati pañcana iti
    What does this say? bhīśā is the key word in this śloka - it is defined as the act of frightening , fear of. It says,

    Thus (iti) through fear of Him the wind (pava) blows (vātaḥ) .
    Through fear ( or being afraid of Him) the sun (sūryaḥ ) rsies.
    Being afraid of Him fire (agni) and indra function.
    And death (mṛtuyr) runs as the 5th (pañcana) or is the 5th item offered here.


    What is the widsom here? One cannot take this śloka separately without considering all of the brāhmaṇanda vallī. The wisdom is keyed in the previous śloka and suggests to us, When one finds (this) fearlessness ( or abhaya - fearlessness, absence or removal of fear , peace , safety , security ) as one's firm support then he has reached fearlessness. However, if one differs even slightly from this then for him there is fear.

    But what is 'differing slightly' ? It is the following: Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati - Fear is born of duality so says the bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad - puruṣavidha-brāhmaṇa, 2nd śloka.

    So, I can see both points made - from atanu and mahahrada... In ignorance there is no doubt duality and hence the possibility of fear. In union there is only one, and fearlessness presides.

    But what of the sun, death, the wind? Why does the upaniṣad offer this analogy? It has much to do with acting independently. Fear arises even in these great elements if it thinks it is seperate from the whole (bhūman) is my understanding.

    praṇām
    Fear or aversion of displeasure or pain and extinction and its natural counterpart desire or attachment to what is pleasurable is what is bringing everything into being and therefore is the cause of any Karma, (activity) and because of these driving powers, the movement (or the life) of great natural powers such as sun and vayu or agni, infact even their separete existence, is caused and therefore this "push and pull" also governs their movement. Surya Agni Indra and Vayu are also referring to our internal life functions (prana etc) if they are active, also death flees i.e. we stay healthy and alive.

    A god fearing person avoiding sins. like gambling etc. because of his fear of punishment by a creator God this concept was missing from bharata dharma until it was introduced by Monotheism and its idea of a jealous and angry god who delights in punishing his servants.

    In bharata dharma our own deeds already carry their results within, like a seed contains the tree. That is called the Law of Karma. The concept of a creator god who punishes or curses us or sents us to hell to be tortured because of what sins we do, or did in the past and who must therefore be feared, giving rise to such linguistic constructs as "god fearing" or "fear of god" to denote a pious person is meaningless for a Hindu and i can only repeat i cannot remember that i ever heard the use of that word before, it is such a very contrary bhava to the loving devotion trust and emotional attachment shown to ones devata i am used to. So i was only wondering if this is a useful or healthy attitude. But to each his own.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 08 June 2010 at 03:22 PM.

  4. #34
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    Re: Stock Trading

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ

    So, I can see both points made - from atanu and mahahrada... In ignorance there is no doubt duality and hence the possibility of fear. In union there is only one, and fearlessness presides.

    But what of the sun, death, the wind? Why does the upaniṣad offer this analogy? It has much to do with acting independently. Fear arises even in these great elements if it thinks it is seperate from the whole (bhūman) is my understanding.

    praṇām
    Namaste yajvanji

    Thank you. In respect of gambling, the intrepid gambler -- even if such a one professes to be a Hindu, will express fearlessness because of ignorance of spiritual principles. On the other hand, one who is aware of spiritual principles but is yet to attain the perfection of advaita, will hold back from gambling like activities for fear of god's wrath. At another extreme, only a jivan mukta can be truly fearless.

    This is a very general principle which operates in every sphere. A child who is ignorant of electric shocks will be fearless till he/she experiences a shock. At the other end of the spectrum, an expert electrician who knows how to handle the electricity will be fearless. The middle ground, where most people (and me) abide is the ground of reverence towards the stupendous power of elecetricity.

    The point is that the highest sages who saw/wrote Vedas did not cavil to express fear of God's wrath called Manyu who is Indra of Vedas and who is feared and worshipped. Probably these highest sages did not possess correct bhava and were influenced by Bible and Koran?

    Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #35
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    Re: Stock Trading

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~

    namast atanu

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste yajvanji

    At another extreme, only a jivan mukta can be truly fearless.
    Yes , I whole-heartedly agree. And courage is that ability to still take action, even when possessed of fear.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #36
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    Re: Stock Trading

    namaste everyone.

    In the karma mArga--path of karma, bhaya/bhayana--fear, of the known and unknown, because of the perception of duality is obvious. In the jnAna mArga, there is no duality, so there is no fear.

    In between these two paths, is the bhakti mArga, where bhaya/bhayana--fear, has a role to play. This is the reason Hindus use a popular term 'bhaya-bhakti' or 'bhayana-bhakti' for children as well as seekers. And bhaya-bhakti is expressed both as an expression of awe for the might of BhagavAn--God, and for removal of fear from the hearts of the bhakta.

    There are two classifications of bhakti: mukhya--primary and gauNa--secondary. The type of bhakti we normally express through pujas and rituals is gauNa bhakti, while bhagavat-smaraNa--thinking of God, at all times with indescribable love is mukhya bhakti, which requires no rituals to reinforce devotion.

    RUpa GosvAmi classifies mukhya bhakti under five rasas--tastes/flavours:

    • santa--neutral/passive, dAsya--servitude, sAkhya--friendship, vAtsalya--parental love, and mAdhurya--sweetness/transcendental love. These rasas are arranged in an ascending order.

    and gauNa bhakti under seven rasas:

    • hAsya--humour, adbhuta--wonder, vIra--chivalry, kAruNya--compassion, raudra--anger, bhayanaka--fear, and bIbhatsa--disguest

    and goes on to explain how these seven gauNa-rasas are compatible or incompatible with the five mukhya-rasas. For more details,
    http://bvml.org/SBNM/JaivaDharma/30.html
    http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/19/187/en1

    Thus, the point is that bhayanaka--fear, although a gauNa-rasa, plays an important part in bhakti-mArga, with a view to yoke the bhakta in dharma and reverential love for God.

    *****
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  7. #37
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    Re: Stock Trading

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~

    namast

    In kaśmir śaivism it is bhairava that liberates beings from fear and is incorporated in His name. Tantrāloka 1.96 says the following:
    viśvam bibharti pūraa
    dhāranayogena tena ca bhriyate
    savimarśatayā rava
    rūpataśca sasārabhīruhitakcca

    He who carries the whole universe, who nurishes and supports it,
    and who is carried by it (bha)
    He is the sound (rava)
    who by His power of awareness
    protects those who are frightened (bhīru)
    by the world of transmigration (saskra)


    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #38
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    Re: Stock Trading

    Thus, the point is that bhayanaka--fear, although a gauNa-rasa, plays an important part in bhakti-mArga, with a view to yoke the bhakta in dharma and reverential love for God.
    Whatever you say, it is still unusual that a bhakta should be called "god fearing" instead of "devoted to god" and ridicolous to suggest a bhakta should not be trading stocks for fear of some kind of punishment by his "God" because of his "Sin". Threats of damage and fear of punishment by "God" has no place in Bharata dharma. Harbouring such a fear is an useless evil tendency, and a backward state of mind. It has nothing to do with a respect for the might or power of a god. As of lately i am reminded rather of Islam than of Hindu Dharma when i read the proposals and advices in this forum.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 09 June 2010 at 12:44 PM.

  9. #39
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    Re: Stock Trading

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post

    A god fearing person avoiding sins. like gambling etc. because of his fear of punishment by a creator God this concept was missing from bharata dharma until it was introduced by Monotheism and its idea of a jealous and angry god who delights in punishing his servants.

    In bharata dharma our own deeds already carry their results within, like a seed contains the tree. That is called the Law of Karma. .

    MahaHrada ji,

    I strongly agree with your views, indeed it is monotheistic philosophies which have brought the concept of fearing god, for a true sanatan dharmi, eshwara should only be object of love.

    consider the interpretation of following verse of isavasya Upanishad which is given by followers of madhwacharya

    अन्धं तमः प्रविशन्ति येऽसम्भूतिमुपासते ।
    ततो भूय इव ते तमो य उ सम्भूत्याँ रताः ॥१२॥ (Isavasya up, 12th verse)

    Those who worship Visnu with the understanding that He is not the Creator, enter dense, unrelenting darkness; to a greater darkness than that go they, who merely think of Him as the Creator alone but not as the Sustainer or Destroyer.


    Being a hindu I am quite disgusted with the interpretation of above verse, as it is almost in same colour as dubious verses of koran. Also i agree in shri rudram, the the deeper meaning is rudra finishes of our difficulties & tamas and makes us auspicious, if I fear him I will really never reach him.

    I will say we should be karma- conscious as it karma which primarily drives us forward, but certainly god fearing is dubious concept to me.
    Last edited by isavasya; 09 June 2010 at 01:19 PM.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

  10. #40
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    Re: Stock Trading

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast isavasya

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    अन्धं तमः प्रविशन्ति येऽसम्भूतिमुपासते ।
    ततो भूय इव ते तमो य उ सम्भूत्याँ रताः ॥१२॥ (Isavasya up, 12th verse)

    Those who worship Visnu with the understanding that He is not the Creator, enter dense, unrelenting darkness; to a greater darkness than that go they, who merely think of Him as the Creator alone but not as the Sustainer or Destroyer.

    Being a hindu I am quite disgusted with the interpretation of above verse,
    We have talked much regarding the wisdom/brilliance of the īśāvāsya upaniad. Consider HDF posts found here if there is interest: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4677

    That said, I see your point of angst regarding the 12th śloka. I do not see śrī viṣṇu in the form mentioned , yet further in my post I offer a possible alignment to śrī viṣṇu , but I am not a proponent of this view.

    FYI only - the 16th śloka hails īśāvara's greatness and recognized as:
    • pūṣan पूषन्- is connected with the sun ; the surveyor of all things ,conductor on journeys on the way to the next world, and bringer of prosperity, the sun nourishes the world, without it there is no earth.
    • yama यम- as a noun it is He who presides over the and rules the spirits of the dead ; He is regarded as the first of men and born from vivasvat , ' the Sun'. And what do we know of yama in its masculine definition? the act of checking or curbing , suppression , restraint.
    • sūrya सूर्य- the sun i.e. luminance, brilliance.
    • prājāpati - is the Lord (pati) of prajā or bring forth. What is brought forth? family , race , posterity , descendants , creatures, mankind
    12th śloka, īśāvāsya upaniad offers us the following:

    andha tama praviśanti
    ye' asabhūtim upāsate |
    tato bhū ya iva te tamo
    ya u sabhūtya ratā ||

    In this 12th verse blindness is clearly called out i.e. andha or andha is blind, darkness, or dark and says ( in brief) the following:

    Into the blinding darkness enter those who adore asabhūti. This asabhūti is asa+bhūti or even a+sa+bhūti which is non + completeness + existence some call non-being or non-becoming. It continues and says , more pitch black enter those who (take) delight (ratā ) in sabhūtya.
    Once again we have sa+bhūti yet without the prefix of 'a' which makes it 'no' or 'not' or 'non'. So we have becoming sabhūtya and non-becoming asabhūti. Some may call this the unmanifest (asabhūti) and the manifest (sabhūti).

    It must be called out that bhūti is a name for śrī viṣṇu & śiva , not to mention welfare personified or lakmī. Yet I do not see how this adds value to the śloka's translation as the key word is asabhūti.
    I have checked 3 translations other then my POV. All three have different ideas yet of the 3 svāmī muni nārāyaa prāsad stays close to the actual word translation of the śloka and says the following:
    Into blinding darkeness enter those who adore non-becoming, and more pitch black as it were is the darkness entered by those who delight in creative becoming.

    We can go deeper and wider if you wish, but thought you would have an appreciation for the afore-mentioned.
     
    praām

    references
    3 translations considered from the following:
    • svāmī muni nārāyaa prāsad
    • svāmi śivānanda
    • Board of Scholars - edited by KL Joshi, O.N. Bimala and Bindia Trivedi
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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