Stock Trading

[MahaHrada]

WRT to the statement "This is the first time in my life i heard a Hindu use that word ---", i remind that Veda teaches us of Manyu, before Bible or Koran did.

Om Namah Shivaya

The english term "god fearing" is not at all comparable or can be associated with description in the hindu shastras that are concerned with the at times dangerous wrath of devatas that are symbolised by ugra murtis like Bhairava, Rudra, Narasimha, atharvana Bhadrakali etc.

Unlike as within the monotheistic conception this wrath is not directed at the bhaktas, but at the obstacles and impediments that hinder their growth.

Thats why rudra is asked to direct his wrath against exactly these obstacles. Thats why i never heard a hindu use the term "god fearing" of "Fear of god" before, especially not in the context of fear of punishment because of a Sin such as gambling. This mindset was only to be found in Islam Judaism and Christianity, but nowaday a lot of spirituality is only a copy of concepts of Islam and Christianity. So i really don´t mind, please keep your fears.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namasté

If we look to the taittirīya upaniṣad , brāhmaṇanda vallī, we are offered the following:
bhīśā 'smād vātaḥ pavate. bhīṣodeti sūryaḥ. bhīṣā' smādagniścendraśa mṛtuyr dhāvati pañcana iti
What does this say? bhīśā is the key word in this śloka - it is defined as the act of frightening , fear of. It says,

Thus (iti) through fear of Him the wind (pava) blows (vātaḥ) .
Through fear ( or being afraid of Him) the sun (sūryaḥ ) rises.
Being afraid of Him fire (agni) and indra function.
And death (mṛtuyr) runs as the 5th (pañcana) or is the 5th item offered here.

What is the widsom here? One cannot take this śloka separately without considering all of the brāhmaṇanda vallī. The wisdom is keyed in the previous śloka and suggests to us, When one finds (this) fearlessness ( or abhaya - fearlessness, absence or removal of fear , peace , safety , security ) as one's firm support then he has reached fearlessness. However, if one differs even slightly from this then for him there is fear.

But what is 'differing slightly' ? It is the following: Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati - Fear is born of duality so says the bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad - puruṣavidha-brāhmaṇa, 2nd śloka.

So, I can see both points made - from atanu and mahahrada... In ignorance there is no doubt duality and hence the possibility of fear. In union there is only one, and fearlessness presides.

But what of the sun, death, the wind? Why does the upaniṣad offer this analogy? It has much to do with acting independently. Fear arises even in these great elements if it thinks it is seperate from the whole (bhūman) is my understanding.

praṇām

[MahaHrada]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namasté

If we look to the taittirīya upaniṣad , brāhmaṇanda vallī, we are offered the following:
bhīśā 'smād vātaḥ pavate. bhīṣodeti sūryaḥ. bhīṣā' smādagniścendraśa mṛtuyr dhāvati pañcana iti
What does this say? bhīśā is the key word in this śloka - it is defined as the act of frightening , fear of. It says,

Thus (iti) through fear of Him the wind (pava) blows (vātaḥ) .
Through fear ( or being afraid of Him) the sun (sūryaḥ ) rsies.
Being afraid of Him fire (agni) and indra function.
And death (mṛtuyr) runs as the 5th (pañcana) or is the 5th item offered here.

What is the widsom here? One cannot take this śloka separately without considering all of the brāhmaṇanda vallī. The wisdom is keyed in the previous śloka and suggests to us, When one finds (this) fearlessness ( or abhaya - fearlessness, absence or removal of fear , peace , safety , security ) as one's firm support then he has reached fearlessness. However, if one differs even slightly from this then for him there is fear.

But what is 'differing slightly' ? It is the following: Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati - Fear is born of duality so says the bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad - puruṣavidha-brāhmaṇa, 2nd śloka.

So, I can see both points made - from atanu and mahahrada... In ignorance there is no doubt duality and hence the possibility of fear. In union there is only one, and fearlessness presides.

But what of the sun, death, the wind? Why does the upaniṣad offer this analogy? It has much to do with acting independently. Fear arises even in these great elements if it thinks it is seperate from the whole (bhūman) is my understanding.

praṇām

Fear or aversion of displeasure or pain and extinction and its natural counterpart desire or attachment to what is pleasurable is what is bringing everything into being and therefore is the cause of any Karma, (activity) and because of these driving powers, the movement (or the life) of great natural powers such as sun and vayu or agni, infact even their separete existence, is caused and therefore this "push and pull" also governs their movement. Surya Agni Indra and Vayu are also referring to our internal life functions (prana etc) if they are active, also death flees i.e. we stay healthy and alive.

A god fearing person avoiding sins. like gambling etc. because of his fear of punishment by a creator God this concept was missing from bharata dharma until it was introduced by Monotheism and its idea of a jealous and angry god who delights in punishing his servants.

In bharata dharma our own deeds already carry their results within, like a seed contains the tree. That is called the Law of Karma. The concept of a creator god who punishes or curses us or sents us to hell to be tortured because of what sins we do, or did in the past and who must therefore be feared, giving rise to such linguistic constructs as "god fearing" or "fear of god" to denote a pious person is meaningless for a Hindu and i can only repeat i cannot remember that i ever heard the use of that word before, it is such a very contrary bhava to the loving devotion trust and emotional attachment shown to ones devata i am used to. So i was only wondering if this is a useful or healthy attitude. But to each his own.

[atanu]

hariḥ oṁ

So, I can see both points made - from atanu and mahahrada... In ignorance there is no doubt duality and hence the possibility of fear. In union there is only one, and fearlessness presides.

But what of the sun, death, the wind? Why does the upaniṣad offer this analogy? It has much to do with acting independently. Fear arises even in these great elements if it thinks it is seperate from the whole (bhūman) is my understanding.

praṇām

Namaste yajvanji

Thank you. In respect of gambling, the intrepid gambler -- even if such a one professes to be a Hindu, will express fearlessness because of ignorance of spiritual principles. On the other hand, one who is aware of spiritual principles but is yet to attain the perfection of advaita, will hold back from gambling like activities for fear of god's wrath. At another extreme, only a jivan mukta can be truly fearless.

This is a very general principle which operates in every sphere. A child who is ignorant of electric shocks will be fearless till he/she experiences a shock. At the other end of the spectrum, an expert electrician who knows how to handle the electricity will be fearless. The middle ground, where most people (and me) abide is the ground of reverence towards the stupendous power of elecetricity.

The point is that the highest sages who saw/wrote Vedas did not cavil to express fear of God's wrath called Manyu who is Indra of Vedas and who is feared and worshipped. Probably these highest sages did not possess correct bhava and were influenced by Bible and Koran?

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namast� atanu

Namaste yajvanji

At another extreme, only a jivan mukta can be truly fearless.

Yes , I whole-heartedly agree. And courage is that ability to still take action, even when possessed of fear.

praṇām

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

In the karma mArga--path of karma, bhaya/bhayana--fear, of the known and unknown, because of the perception of duality is obvious. In the jnAna mArga, there is no duality, so there is no fear.

In between these two paths, is the bhakti mArga, where bhaya/bhayana--fear, has a role to play. This is the reason Hindus use a popular term 'bhaya-bhakti' or 'bhayana-bhakti' for children as well as seekers. And bhaya-bhakti is expressed both as an expression of awe for the might of BhagavAn--God, and for removal of fear from the hearts of the bhakta.

There are two classifications of bhakti: mukhya--primary and gauNa--secondary. The type of bhakti we normally express through pujas and rituals is gauNa bhakti, while bhagavat-smaraNa--thinking of God, at all times with indescribable love is mukhya bhakti, which requires no rituals to reinforce devotion.

RUpa GosvAmi classifies mukhya bhakti under five rasas--tastes/flavours:

• santa--neutral/passive, dAsya--servitude, sAkhya--friendship, vAtsalya--parental love, and mAdhurya--sweetness/transcendental love. These rasas are arranged in an ascending order.

and gauNa bhakti under seven rasas:

• hAsya--humour, adbhuta--wonder, vIra--chivalry, kAruNya--compassion, raudra--anger, bhayanaka--fear, and bIbhatsa--disguest

and goes on to explain how these seven gauNa-rasas are compatible or incompatible with the five mukhya-rasas. For more details,
http://bvml.org/SBNM/JaivaDharma/30.html
http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/19/187/en1

Thus, the point is that bhayanaka--fear, although a gauNa-rasa, plays an important part in bhakti-mArga, with a view to yoke the bhakta in dharma and reverential love for God.

*****

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namast�

In kaśmir śaivism it is bhairava that liberates beings from fear and is incorporated in His name. Tantrālokaḥ 1.96 says the following:
viśvam bibharti pūraṇa
dhāranayogena tena ca bhriyate
savimarśatayā rava
rūpataśca saṃsārabhīruhitakṛcca

He who carries the whole universe, who nurishes and supports it,
and who is carried by it (bha)
He is the sound (rava)
who by His power of awareness
protects those who are frightened (bhīru)
by the world of transmigration (saṃskra)


praṇām

[MahaHrada]

Thus, the point is that bhayanaka--fear, although a gauNa-rasa, plays an important part in bhakti-mArga, with a view to yoke the bhakta in dharma and reverential love for God.

Whatever you say, it is still unusual that a bhakta should be called "god fearing" instead of "devoted to god" and ridicolous to suggest a bhakta should not be trading stocks for fear of some kind of punishment by his "God" because of his "Sin". Threats of damage and fear of punishment by "God" has no place in Bharata dharma. Harbouring such a fear is an useless evil tendency, and a backward state of mind. It has nothing to do with a respect for the might or power of a god. As of lately i am reminded rather of Islam than of Hindu Dharma when i read the proposals and advices in this forum.

[isavasya]

A god fearing person avoiding sins. like gambling etc. because of his fear of punishment by a creator God this concept was missing from bharata dharma until it was introduced by Monotheism and its idea of a jealous and angry god who delights in punishing his servants.

In bharata dharma our own deeds already carry their results within, like a seed contains the tree. That is called the Law of Karma. .

MahaHrada ji,

I strongly agree with your views, indeed it is monotheistic philosophies which have brought the concept of fearing god, for a true sanatan dharmi, eshwara should only be object of love.

consider the interpretation of following verse of isavasya Upanishad which is given by followers of madhwacharya

अन्धं तमः प्रविशन्ति येऽसम्भूतिमुपासते ।
ततो भूय इव ते तमो य उ सम्भूत्याँ रताः ॥१२॥ (Isavasya up, 12th verse)

Those who worship Visnu with the understanding that He is not the Creator, enter dense, unrelenting darkness; to a greater darkness than that go they, who merely think of Him as the Creator alone but not as the Sustainer or Destroyer.


Being a hindu I am quite disgusted with the interpretation of above verse, as it is almost in same colour as dubious verses of koran. Also i agree in shri rudram, the the deeper meaning is rudra finishes of our difficulties & tamas and makes us auspicious, if I fear him I will really never reach him.

I will say we should be karma- conscious as it karma which primarily drives us forward, but certainly god fearing is dubious concept to me.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast� isavasya

अन्धं तमः प्रविशन्ति येऽसम्भूतिमुपासते ।
ततो भूय इव ते तमो य उ सम्भूत्याँ रताः ॥१२॥ (Isavasya up, 12th verse)

Those who worship Visnu with the understanding that He is not the Creator, enter dense, unrelenting darkness; to a greater darkness than that go they, who merely think of Him as the Creator alone but not as the Sustainer or Destroyer.

Being a hindu I am quite disgusted with the interpretation of above verse,

We have talked much regarding the wisdom/brilliance of the īśāvāsya upaniṣad. Consider HDF posts found here if there is interest: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4677

That said, I see your point of angst regarding the 12th śloka. I do not see śrī viṣṇu in the form mentioned , yet further in my post I offer a possible alignment to śrī viṣṇu , but I am not a proponent of this view.

FYI only - the 16th śloka hails īśāvara's greatness and recognized as:

• pūṣan पूषन्- is connected with the sun ; the surveyor of all things ,conductor on journeys on the way to the next world, and bringer of prosperity, the sun nourishes the world, without it there is no earth.
• yama यम- as a noun it is He who presides over the and rules the spirits of the dead ; He is regarded as the first of men and born from vivasvat , ' the Sun'. And what do we know of yama in its masculine definition? the act of checking or curbing , suppression , restraint.
• sūrya सूर्य- the sun i.e. luminance, brilliance.
• prājāpati - is the Lord (pati) of prajā or bring forth. What is brought forth? family , race , posterity , descendants , creatures, mankind

12th śloka, īśāvāsya upaniṣad offers us the following:

andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti
ye' asaṁbhūtim upāsate |
tato bhū ya iva te tamo
ya u saṁbhūtyaṁ ratāḥ ||

In this 12th verse blindness is clearly called out i.e. andhaṁ or andha is blind, darkness, or dark and says ( in brief) the following:

Into the blinding darkness enter those who adore asaṁbhūti. This asaṁbhūti is asaṁ+bhūti or even a+saṁ+bhūti which is non + completeness + existence some call non-being or non-becoming. It continues and says , more pitch black enter those who (take) delight (ratā ) in saṁbhūtyaṁ.
Once again we have saṁ+bhūti yet without the prefix of 'a' which makes it 'no' or 'not' or 'non'. So we have becoming saṁbhūtyaṁ and non-becoming asaṁbhūti. Some may call this the unmanifest (asaṁbhūti) and the manifest (saṁbhūti).

It must be called out that bhūti is a name for śrī viṣṇu & śiva , not to mention welfare personified or lakṣmī. Yet I do not see how this adds value to the śloka's translation as the key word is asaṁbhūti.
I have checked 3 translations� other then my POV. All three have different ideas yet of the 3 svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad stays close to the actual word translation of the śloka and says the following:
Into blinding darkeness enter those who adore non-becoming, and more pitch black as it were is the darkness entered by those who delight in creative becoming.

We can go deeper and wider if you wish, but thought you would have an appreciation for the afore-mentioned.
　
praṇām

references
3 translations considered from the following:

• svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad
• svāmi śivānanda
• Board of Scholars - edited by KL Joshi, O.N. Bimala and Bindia Trivedi