Yoga Inc. (Online Documentary)

[Philippe*]

MahaHrada,

I have already pointed the classical commentary (around 4th-6th centuries) of the YS (II-46) attributed to VyAsa which mentions several Asanas, some of them show that there was a discipline of Asanas developed such as krauncAsana, uShTrAsana. It is even written "and so on" implying that there are other Asanas. VijnAna bhikSHu another classical commentator named some Asanas such as mayUrAsana which is a difficult Asana. On the other hand, one does not need to master a vast series of Asanas to realize the goal of YS,YS was not meant to be technical and it is not a Natha text neither.

In haThayoga pradIpikA with the classical commentary of BrahmAnanda haTha yoga is clearly linked with rAja yoga cf. HYP I:1-3. Traditionally rAja yoga refers to Patanjali Yoga. HYP even includes practices related with therapy and ayUrveda : Shat karmas, six purificatory processes. There are some symbolic myths around haTha Yoga, Gorakshanath is said to be a direct disciple of Mastyendranath (a fish turned into a man) who revealed the haTha yoga teachings. Actually the Yoga practices were in existence long before Gorakshanath (10th-11th centuries) dynamized his tradition.

In some Indian regions, for instance Uttarakhand (Haridwar, Rishikesh aso...) which I know a bit, my in-laws living there, Patanjali Yoga in ashrams and daily life is clearly associated with some psycho-physical practices. In reality, what is put in the box haTha yoga and and in the box rAja yoga are often facets in some more or less integral yogic traditions and not clearly dissociated as if these aspects would have been developed without any mutual influence until today in India.

Moreover from a practical point of view prANAyAma (4th limb) is linked with the breath though the concept of prANa has several meanings and the results of prANAyAma described by Patanjali can be acquired without breathing practices. prANAyAma practices are usually easier and more efficient with an asana practice which is more developed than just taking a comfortable and steady sitting posture without physical preparation. Some efficient prANAyAma practices often include bandhas which need some training coming with Asana practice.

Traditionally, it is common that a yogi involved with psycho-physical practices does not relate mainly with some style of Yoga but first with a teacher : "I have learnt Yoga from... who learnt Yoga from..." thus he (or she) is a link in a living lineage of teacher-student. Texts such as yogayAjnavalkya samhitA (around 10th century) and yoga tArAvali also show some links between psycho-physical practices and rAja Yoga, yogayAjnavalkya samhitA gives details about the eight limbs. YS has been adopted as a normative and classical text over the centuries in India by various people and then lineages. It is not a recent phenomenon.

By the way, the self-claimed Natha yogis and tantrikas in France about whom I have written are not linked to this Romanian movement.

Philippe

[MahaHrada]

MahaHrada,

I have already pointed the classical commentary (around 4th-6th centuries) of the YS (II-46) attributed to VyAsa which mentions several Asanas, some of them show that there was a discipline of Asanas developed such as krauncAsana, uShTrAsana. It is even written "and so on" implying that there are other Asanas. VijnAna bhikSHu another classical commentator named some Asanas such as mayUrAsana which is a difficult Asana. On the other hand, one does not need to master a vast series of Asanas to realize the goal of YS,YS was not meant to be technical and it is not a Natha text neither.

In haThayoga pradIpikA with the classical commentary of BrahmAnanda haTha yoga is clearly linked with rAja yoga cf. HYP I:1-3. Traditionally rAja yoga refers to Patanjali Yoga. HYP even includes practices related with therapy and ayUrveda : Shat karmas, six purificatory processes. There are some symbolic myths around haTha Yoga, Gorakshanath is said to be a direct disciple of Mastyendranath (a fish turned into a man) who revealed the haTha yoga teachings. Actually the Yoga practices were in existence long before Gorakshanath (10th-11th centuries) dynamized his tradition.

In some Indian regions, for instance Uttarakhand (Haridwar, Rishikesh aso...) which I know a bit, my in-laws living there, Patanjali Yoga in ashrams and daily life is clearly associated with some psycho-physical practices. In reality, what is put in the box haTha yoga and and in the box rAja yoga are often facets in some more or less integral yogic traditions and not clearly dissociated as if these aspects would have been developed without any mutual influence until today in India.

Moreover from a practical point of view prANAyAma (4th limb) is linked with the breath though the concept of prANa has several meanings and the results of prANAyAma described by Patanjali can be acquired without breathing practices. prANAyAma practices are usually easier and more efficient with an asana practice which is more developed than just taking a comfortable and steady sitting posture without physical preparation. Some efficient prANAyAma practices often include bandhas which need some training coming with Asana practice.

Traditionally, it is common that a yogi involved with psycho-physical practices does not relate mainly with some style of Yoga but first with a teacher : "I have learnt Yoga from... who learnt Yoga from..." thus he (or she) is a link in a living lineage of teacher-student. Texts such as yogayAjnavalkya samhitA (around 10th century) and yoga tArAvali also show some links between psycho-physical practices and rAja Yoga, yogayAjnavalkya samhitA gives details about the eight limbs. YS has been adopted as a normative and classical text over the centuries in India by various people and then lineages. It is not a recent phenomenon.

By the way, the self-claimed Natha yogis and tantrikas in France about whom I have written are not linked to this Romanian movement.

Philippe

I do not really get what you are trying to say. Is it that you think Patanjali taught Hatha Yoga?
Or do you want to say that Patanjalis Yoga based on Samkhya darshana is taught within the Tradition of the original propounders of Hatha Yoga that is by the Nath Siddhas?

Both statements would be wrong. Authentic Hatha Yoga is based on the Tantras and Agamas and contains a wide variety of Asanas, traditionally 84 and this system is taught in shastras such as: Hatha yoga Pradipika, Gorakshagita, Goraksha sataka, Goraksha Paddhati, Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati, Amaraugha Sasana, Amaraugha Prabodha, Mahartha Manjari, Gheranda Samhita, Matsyendra Samhita etc.

Nath panth teaches Mantra shastra, Satchakrabheda and Kundalini jagaran and Laya Yoga and has a distinct definition of the Yoga angas such as dharana, dhyana, samadhi which widely differ from Patanjali Yoga and that relate to the internalisation of elements of the mantra marga, or siddhanta shaivaism,and other agamic and tantric traditions. It also teaches Nada anusandhana and Mantra ucchara all these practices are unknown in Patanjalis yoga system which is based on the Samkhya darshana and contains absolutely no elements derived from the Agamas or Tantras or anything related to the Shaivaite Mantra marga and Ati marga which are the basis of authentic Hatha Yoga.

I do not doubt that also in India it will be hard to find authentic Hatha yoga traditions nowadays and of course also in India Patanjali Yoga is erroneously mixed up with Hatha Yoga.
It is correct that students will relate to a teacher rather than a tradition which is another reason to doubt that teachers like Krishnamacharya and Shivananda the one a Vaishnava the other a Vedantin, (both darshanas that are averse and opposed to the doctrines of the shaivaite ati marga and mantra marga which form the background of authentic Hatha yoga), are so much as even aware of the purport of the hatha yoga shastras, and their aims and methods lacking the ground on which this originally shaivaite and tantric tradition of Yoga is based.

Probably you may find this article interesting which sheds some further light on the subject:
http://www.here-now4u.de/eng/yoga_ph...naneshvara.htm

[Philippe*]

The point was that Patanjali Yoga is connected with psycho-spiritual practices which are more developed than a mere sitting posture and that traditions using such psycho-physical practices predate the time of Gorakshanath, the Natha tradition since Gorakshanath is a tradition among others using such practices, there have been mixing since centuries. Such practices are not "foreign" to Patanjali Yoga thus the question of "authenticity" of the practices takes another dimension and what I have written in previous posts was correct. HYP has become a classical text not only for the Naths, mainly for technical reasons, I find many modern books about Yoga more useful but in those times there was no printing, people used to learn by heart some texts in the light of the explanation of the teacher and used to meditate upon them all life long, it has its advantages too.

Philippe

[MahaHrada]

The point was that Patanjali Yoga is connected with psycho-spiritual practices which are more developed than a mere sitting posture

I guess you have misunderstood me, i merely wanted to point out that Patanjali Yoga is distinct from Hatha Yoga and one reason is that it does not focus on diverse bodily postures but on meditation.

.... that traditions using such psycho-physical practices predate the time of Gorakshanath, the Natha tradition since Gorakshanath is a tradition among others using such practices, there have been mixing since centuries. Such practices are not "foreign" to Patanjali Yoga

Of course in a very general sense a few sitting postures are taught in other traditions also, but Hatha yoga is solely based on Nath shastras. If you can name any Hatha Yoga shastra unrelated to Nath panth or Siddha siddhanta than please do so.

the question of "authenticity" of the practices takes another dimension and what I have written in previous posts was correct. HYP has become a classical text not only for the Naths, mainly for technical reasons, I find many modern books about Yoga more useful but in those times there was no printing, people used to learn by heart some texts in the light of the explanation of the teacher and used to meditate upon them all life long, it has its advantages too.
Philippe

I do not doubt that Patanjali yoga sutras or Hathayogapradipika have become text books for other traditions, and that some practices culled from these shastras are also used in western therapeutic Yoga, it is just that all these people who adopted Nath texts lack the background to understand the deeper meaning and aim of these texts especially when they treat subjects beyond the purely physical exercises.

I append another study for consideration:

[MahaHrada]

second part

[Philippe*]

MahaHrada, I am aware of the differences, I do not deny it, and that such Natha texts are taken out of context especially when they do not have commentaries and that no teacher comments them. It is also the case with YS and sAMkhya kArikA.

In the Krishnamacharya, Desikachar tradition, the only important Nath book is HYP. shiva samhitA and GheraNDa saMhitA are more for the cultural knowledge as they have become famous too. Mantra mahodadhi from Mahidhara was considered interesting for mantras, though it is clearly a Tantric book. The other main texts are sAMkhya KArikA, YS, yogarahasya, bhagavad gItA, yogayajnAvalkya saMhitA, yoga tArAvali, various commentaries and texts from Vedas but still you do not have to "believe", there are mirrors for self-knowledge.

Though being a very conservative Southern Brahmin in his young days, Krishnamacharya even taught Vedic Chanting to women and foreigners later in his life with a justification taken from some shastra. He used to go further with his Brahmin students. It is not claimed to be haTha yoga but simply yoga related to Patanjali from a living tradition requiring some lifelong practice to discover, deepen all the aspects and become a competent teacher. He taught different people tailoring Yoga to the individual needs. As a result for a lot of people he was more famous as a therapist, he never claimed to be a guru.

In a way, I find the Tantric teachings more complete as a spiritual path in itself, but it is not what I have chosen, moreover I am not fond of "hidden teachings". Else I would have found some other tradition. On the other hand I see these teachings useful to enhance all fields in life and as a wonderful adjuvant for my spiritual journey which was the case for Krishnamacharya too, he was first a devout Vaishnava. This has been the case for a lot of Vedantins. For Shivananda too, nevertheless I am sceptical about their one-month programme to train teachers in Rishikesh or elsewhere. This is closer to what is commonly understood as mainstream yoga in India, it is more accessible. Other paths require a deep call from inside as a prerequisite. Natha tradition is very esoteric and hidden even in India.

I would add that Patanjali was a compiler and a link in some tradition, there are also various inspiring symbolic myths. Yoga and sAmkhya are mentioned in bhagavad gItA which is older than YS. Moreover in bhagavad gItA alone 18 types of yogas are named, the prANAyAma practice is mentioned too. The fact is that Yoga is very ancient, it comes from time immemorial.

Philippe

[MahaHrada]

MahaHrada, I am aware of the differences, I do not deny it, and that such Natha texts are taken out of context especially when they do not have commentaries and that no teacher comments them. It is also the case with YS and sAMkhya kArikA.

In the Krishnamacharya, Desikachar tradition, the only important Nath book is HYP. shiva samhitA and GheraNDa saMhitA are more for the cultural knowledge as they have become famous too. Mantra mahodadhi from Mahidhara was considered interesting for mantras, though it is clearly a Tantric book. The other main texts are sAMkhya KArikA, YS, yogarahasya, bhagavad gItA, yogayajnAvalkya saMhitA, yoga tArAvali, various commentaries and texts from Vedas but still you do not have to "believe", there are mirrors for self-knowledge.

Though being a very conservative Southern Brahmin in his young days, Krishnamacharya even taught Vedic Chanting to women and foreigners later in his life with a justification taken from some shastra. He used to go further with his Brahmin students. It is not claimed to be haTha yoga but simply yoga related to Patanjali from a living tradition requiring some lifelong practice to discover, deepen all the aspects and become a competent teacher.

In a way, I find the Tantric teachings more complete as a spiritual path in itself, but it is not what I have chosen, moreover I am not fond of "hidden teachings". Else I would have found some other tradition. On the other hand I see these teachings useful to enhance all fields in life and as a wonderful adjuvant for my life which was the case for Krishnamacharya too, he was first a devout Vaishnava. This has been the case for a lot of Vedantins. For Shivananda too, nevertheless I am sceptical about their one-month programme to train teachers in Rishikesh adn elsewhere. This is closer to what is commonly understood as mainstream yoga in India, it is more accessible. Other paths require a deep call from inside as a prerequisite. Natha tradition is very esoteric and hidden even in India.

I would add that Patanjali was a compiler and a link in some tradition, there are also various inspiring symbolic myths. Yoga and sAmkhya are mentioned in bhagavad gItA which is older than YS. Moreover in bhagavad gItA alone 18 types of yogas are named, the prANAyAma practice is mentioned too. The fact is that Yoga is very ancient, it comes from time immemorial.

Philippe

I have no doubt that the Yoga paths as they are, or were taught by Swami Shivananda and Krishnamacharya and Iyengar or others remain benefical for the student even if Hatha Yoga shastras are practised in the context of Vedanta or Vaishnavism.

Many practices in the original Hatha yoga are merely preparations for more subtle methods, in an old yoga song it is said "Nath convention is that one body eats the other" . Not only the physical body is purified but raw bodies are purified and assimilated into more "stable" undecaying subtle bodies.

When these higher methods are unknown the body is prepared and purified which is a good thing of course, but the second step cannot be applied because of a lack of knowledge as to why it was purified in the first place.

Therefore there is a danger that modern Hatha Yoga remains focussed on the therapeutic value of the asanas and pranayama, and the way hatha yoga practises Dharana, or Dhyana Samadhi and Kundalini jagaran is either seldom taken up or if taken up it is not properly understood, because of the lack of context of these teachings with orthodox vedanta.

The problem becomes even more frustrating when the concept of Patanjalis yoga angas are mixed up with the Yoga angas as understood in Hatha Yoga proper.

While Patanjalis Angas denote deepening stages of meditation, in Hatha yoga these Angas are a definend sets of activities, for instance dharana is focussing of prana in specified body regions (Marmas) using certain sequences and timing. This again is only a preparation to focus the life force in the chakras by gathering the mind and prana on the form and attributes of the panchabhutas, which is termend dhyana and so on.

Actually it is a sad state that so little background information about the original aims of Hatha Yoga are available, since Asana practice and Pranayama, are subjects that have gathered so much public attention in the west. Nowadays there is a myth, even in India, that Hatha yoga is focussed on the physical body, and it has become unknown that its maxim is rather "one body eats the other" and it should lead one forward to Samadhi by kundalini jagaran.

[TatTvamAsi]

Bikram Choudhury is a joke like Deepak Chopra.

They are in the States for one reason; to make gobs of money.

By manipulating yoga and other elements of Hinduism to sell to these mlecchas, they have made millions and are self-proclaimed gurus.

It is a travesty that yoga is so commercialized in the west. In fact, what these people call 'yoga' is not that at all.

This is what happens when you allow all sorts of fellows to do yoga and study Hinduism.

Caste. Another brilliant reason why caste is needed and these mlecchas should be disbarred from doing yoga or anything related to Hinduism.

[Sahasranama]

In the documentary first it seemed that the people who were sued by Bikram were genuinely concerned about the commercialisation of yoga. But when they made a deal with Bikram they dropped there case! That shows they were only thinking about saving their own asses.

This is what happens when you allow all sorts of fellows to do yoga and study Hinduism.

Caste. Another brilliant reason why caste is needed and these mlecchas should be disbarred from doing yoga or anything related to Hinduism.

I do not agree with you here. We can't generalise, there are Hindus and Indians too who will abuse their religion for money. Many pundits in India only read the Bhagavatam for material wealth without understanding the deeper meanings of the text or without devotion.

There are also many mlecchas who are concerned about authenticity of Hindu teachings, even though they might not be Hindus themselves. Just look at people like David Frawley and Georg Feuerstein.

Having said that, I do think that there are many western people who are undeserving to practice certain aspects of Hinduism. And yes, I do think that they have a major role to play in the commercialisation of Hinduism and yoga.

[TatTvamAsi]

In the documentary first it seemed that the people who were sued by Bikram were genuinely concerned about the commercialisation of yoga. But when they made a deal with Bikram they dropped there case! That shows they were only thinking about saving their own asses.

I do not agree with you here. We can't generalise, there are Hindus and Indians too who will abuse their religion for money. Many pundits in India only read the Bhagavatam for material wealth without understanding the deeper meanings of the text or without devotion.

There are also many mlecchas who are concerned about authenticity of Hindu teachings, even though they might not be Hindus themselves. Just look at people like David Frawley and Georg Feuerstein.

Having said that, I do think that there are many western people who are undeserving to practice certain aspects of Hinduism. And yes, I do think that they have a major role to play in the commercialisation of Hinduism and yoga.

I agree with you there. There are indeed several westerners who are genuinely interested in Hinduism. And that is a great thing.