Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

[Ramakrishna]

My summer vacation is coming up soon and before heading off to college I plan on reading the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Are all of the stories told in these two epics actual historical events that happened? Or were some of the stories more like allegories and symbolic stories to teach the readers morals and lessons about life?

I have read in multiple places that Lord Rama is an example of the ideal man, the perfect husband, and the perfect leader. Sita is an example of the ideal woman and the perfect wife. Lord Hanuman is an example of a perfect and steadfast devotee and servant of God. This website (http://hinduism.about.com/od/godsgod...tp/deities.htm) says that Lord Rama "is widely believed to be an actual historical figure." But are we to believe that every single story from the Ramayana actually happened here on Earth, such as Lord Hanuman lifting an entire mountain? Are certain aspects or stories to be taken symbolically or allegorically?

I am wondering the same about the Mahabharata as well. This website (http://hinduism.about.com/od/scriptu...a/itihasas.htm) has given me plenty of information about the Itihasas. I know Itihasas is the Sanskrit word for "histories", but were all of the events described in them actual historical events that took place on Earth? The website says that the Mahabharata "is a treasure house of Indian lore and holds within it a code of life for ethical, social and spiritual relations. Throughout this great epic every sort of human situation is described and every kind of emotion is aroused. There is a saying that if it is not in the Mahabharata then it is not to be found." That would lead me to think that not all of the events actually literally occurred, but were made up as allegorical and symbolic stories to teach us morals and life lessons. But the Bhagavad Gita is part of the Mahabharata and I have always thought of the Gita as something that actually occurred here on Earth.

Please help me and clarify this because I am pretty confused right now.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Ramakrishna:

As far as I know, there are two viewpoints, and a wide range of emotional attachment to both. Perhaps you will have to ask, "What makes the most sense to me?"

For me personally, it is myth and allegory. (I know this will come across as insulting to some that hold its all reality.) When I read condensed versions, it just sounded more like historical fiction than history. There were too many miracles like flying for me. But I could be dead wrong, as I have been before many times.

There is also the other possibility that stories were based on real historical figures, but then later additions were made.

Regardless, if one gleans lessons and can apply them to this life, then really why the question. We often get good lessons from current fiction as well, especially what not to do.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

Ithihas by definition = history

i would not want to insult those highly elevated personalties who wrote it as such. sure there is a lot i do not comprehend but then not so long ago people use to think the world was flat.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Sahasranama]

I have no doubt that Hanuman lifted the mountain or that Krishna lifted the govardhan with his pinky, or that Narasimha came out of a pillar to kill hiranyakashipa. They are the manifestations of Ishvara, so why would it be any problem that they can do the unbelievable? They came with style. There are many people these days who call their guru an avatar. The original avatars of the itihasas and puranas do put a lot of expectation on the modern flood of avatars, they can't live up to it.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam EM

There were too many miracles like flying for me. But I could be dead wrong, as I have been before many times.
Aum Namasivaya

I find this amazing that the flying could render the History of Bharat and reduced it to myth or fiction, off course you are entitle to your opinion, but there are documented design of Viman and how it works, we are simply unable to understand it, that does not prove it worked but i am inclined to believe those ancestors of ours were far superior then we could imagine.

We all are flying with mother earth this very moment and we can not even feel it.how amazing is this miracle, we know the earth is in motion yet we say sun is rising and setting, just shows how faulty our perceptions are.



Jai Shree Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam GP:

I am not in the least trying to discourage you from your view. OP asked a question, and I said there would be varying views, and you and I together have proved that statement. I'm not the kind of person who thinks in the "I'm right, you're wrong' mode, and neither are you.

In my Saiva tradition, Tirujnana Sambandar was said to have walked into the sanctum with his whole wedding party and disappeared into the Sivaloka. Do you believe in that one? I'm not sure if I do or not.

Aum Namasivaya

[smaranam]

Namaste

Sahasranama said :

I have no doubt that Hanuman lifted the mountain or that Krishna lifted the govardhan with his pinky, or that Narasimha came out of a pillar to kill hiranyakashipa. They are the manifestations of Ishvara, so why would it be any problem that they can do the unbelievable? They came with style. There are many people these days who call their guru an avatar. The original avatars of the itihasas and puranas do put a lot of expectation on the modern flood of avatars, they can't live up to it.

We have to look at the concept of avatAr first - for the sake of all readers.

When Bhagavan/ Parameshwar (Ishvar)/ ParaBrahman descends, He does so in numerous varieties.

KRshNa is svayam BhagavAn. He is also considered PUrNa AvatAr of VishNu = God in all His completeness. When He expands into 100% Himself - this is sva-aMsha (svaMsha) avatAr.

The Supreme Lord has
guNa avatAr - to preside over each of the 3 guNas
Yuga avatAr - special for each of the 4 Yugas
LIlA avatAr - that perform pastimes (Matsya KUrma RAm NarsiMha VAman, VArAha)
Manwantara avatAr - to do the Supreme Lord's designated service for a specific period of a Manu

shaktyAvesha avatAr - ( shakti + Avesha ) : empowered beings sent with many of His powers and qualities (shaktis) , but not necessarily all.

vibhutis - Living entities with sparkles of His glories (Bhagavad Gita Chapter 10)
aMsha avatars - an aMsha is a fraction. HanumAn is an aMsha of Lord Shiva

It is said that the Supreme Lord is triYuga. That is, He comes in all/most of His opulence in only the first three Yugas - Sat, TretA, DwApar.

In Kali Yug, we have mostly Guru avatArs. The Lord is compassionate enough that He does not just leave the Kali Yug beings abandoned to their fates. He does send His aMshas, shaktyAveshas, Guru avatArs.

These avatArs are obviously not here to show us the full prabhAv (glorious opulence) of BhagavAn. They don't lift Govardhans , expand into 16,000 selves , or send the Sudarshan Chakra to annihilate evil. (Well, this too is done by the Guru avatArs at subtle , philosophical levels). However, they are One with The Supreme Lord in all respects - Atmic ekatva .
The Kali Yug avatArs are mainly to keep the common people on the path of goodness and dharma. To revive their faith in Him. To annihilate the internal demons of kAm , krodh, lobh... (the vices) - the Duryodhans of Kali Yug.


Yada YadA hi dharmasya glanir bhavati ... Whenever and wherever there is decline in religious principles, the Lord is compassionate enough to keep His promise and send shaktyAvesha avatArs of Him, many of which are His pure devotees in Vaikuntha.

NArad Muni (Devarshi) , is a pure devotee of Shri VishNu, but he is really an avatAr (He is called the mind of VishNu) . The 4 Kumars , sons of BrahmA are shaktyAvesha avatArs (empowered beings), but at the same time they are His pure devotees, yearning to see BhagavAn VishNu , at the gates of VaikuNtha.

Some avatArs are prophesied in scriptures, "channa avatArs" , disguised as devotees - like Chaitanya MahAprabhu.

Devotees of Shirdi Sai Baba consider Him an avatAr of DattAtreya (who in turn is VishNu-avatAr playing the role of Guru). Datta-Guru. I am not aware of any scriptural ref. about Him, His devotees do not feel the need for scriptural support.

For some, Jesus is a pure devotee of the Supreme (Father in Heaven) and a shaktyAvesha avatAr. He also brings people to KRshNa. These are personal experiences.

Others do not have to consider all these as avatArs , perhaps simply as saints. There is no force or punishment - the Lord will never impose Himself or His devotees on anyone. He just makes sure there are (1) enough worshippable forms and (2)enough empowered beings sent into the world for the variety of souls out there.

This is the beauty of SanAtan Dharma. There are no ultimatums given, but plenty of Free Will. If one does not surrender to any one of His forms, they may just continue in the kArmic cycle of birth and death. Yet, [non-dogmatic] faith in any one of these forms is auspicious, what to speak of devotion to svayam BhagavAn.

Love cannot be forced. Many in the world have to learn this. If they do, all these religious wars will not exist. KRshNa is smart - He gives Free Will. Set the birds free. If they come back to Him on their own, they are His forever.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam EM

In my Saiva tradition, Tirujnana Sambandar was said to have walked into the sanctum with his whole wedding party and disappeared into the Sivaloka. Do you believe in that one? I'm not sure if I do or not.

Aum Namasivaya

I have no reason to judge on some thing I not familiar with, sure there are many examples of Bhakta where Viman from Vainkutha came to get them what to speak off Mirabai who merged in to Dwarkadhis murti.

These are faith that is hard to verify or judge by mere mortal like me. But I will relate a story and I keep it short, Naradmuni once informed a bhakta that Vishnu was threading elephant through the eye of a needle upon hearing that the Bhakta was overjoyed, seeing that Nardmuni asked how could you believe that? Simple he said if the Lord can have banyan tree in a seed, what is so difficult in there to thread an elephant through the eye off a needle?

Funny thing this faith, Vedas, very few study or understand but Ramayan and Mahabharat and Puranas form the bases of most Hindus beliefs, we reduce it to fiction then very foundation is questioned, yes if the ithihas is reduced to allegoric or fiction that is what it amount to. We might as well forget about the Rameshvaram and the bridge that was built by Vanaras. It would have been hard to believe someone could converse with somebody miles apart before the advent of telephone, yet that is what ten Headed Ravan did with Ahiravan continent apart.

It is hard to believe elephant head Ganesh with four hand or six heads of Kartik what to speak of 5 headed Shiva with garland of snakes, crescent and Ganga on his head. All these are enough to tax my brain but for me it is either all or nothing.

That is not to say there are no metaphor spoken in there or extrapolation by various interested parties, yet I stand firm in the belief all this is true, for the Lord there is nothing impossible.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste,

Please understand that I do not think that anything is off limits to the Lord. I believe God can do literally anything. The issue for me is not whether God was capable of doing these things, but whether these things actually happened here on Earth.

One of the biggest problems I have with Christianity is that a lot of Christians interpret the Bible literally, and because of that they believe that the Earth is 6,000-10,000 years old, humans are the same age, and humans coexisted with dinosaurs. They also believed that just a few thousand years ago there was a giant flood that destroyed nearly all life on Earth, and somebody built a giant boat to save two of every creature. To literally believe all of those things is just ridiculous. I have no doubt that Lord Hanuman, being divine, was capable of lifting and moving a mountain. But did that actually occur here on Earth? Where is that mountain now?

I am inclined to take Eastern Mind's view that the Itihasas are sort of like historical fiction. If I were to believe that the whole thing is fiction, then serious problems would arrive with my beliefs. What would I think of all of Lord Vishnu's nine avatars then? As a strong devotee of Lord Krishna, I do believe that He was here on Earth and spoke the Bhagavad Gita to Arjuna. I believe that Lord Rama really was an actual king, but perhaps some of the tales about His life were exaggerated?

I read that Valmiki is the author of the Ramayana and Vyasa is the author of the Mahabharata. Would you view them as historians then who wrote these epic history books? Or more as poets who wrote these epic poems describing possible historical events with exaggerations? Can you or anyone else tell me more about these two figures? How did they gain the knowledge to write these two books? Were they actual witnesses to the events or were they divinely guided? I know Christians believe the people who wrote the books of the Bible were divinely guided by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps more knowledge of the two men known as the authors of the Itihasas will help me formulate an opinion on the reality of the works.

Hare Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam all:

I do believe that with God, basically anything is possible. I've had too many personal unexplained events in my life to deny that. (And no its not just the fact I found a life mate for a beast like me.) But just because it is possible doesn't mean I believed it happened.

If we are to throw scorn at the Christian creation belief or at least cast severe scientific doubt on it, then also I would say that of our puranas. Its not just flying, its a ton of things, like placing an elephants head on a man, riding a peacock, riding around on a mouse. (I'm using my own Saiva ones as examples on purpose.) It doesn't jive with science, yet much of our other stuff does fit with science.

But in actuality I don't care because I have a more practical side than that. Right now, how has this story or these stories helped with this soul's evolution? Would I or anybody here be acting any differently had they not heard the stories? What is it that makes me practice my religion the way I do?

For me it still remains my own spine, my own intuition, and the advice of the sages. Basic stuff like don't cheat, be kind, be loyal ... all that and more. Totally distinct from the stories.

Aum Namasivaya