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Thread: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

  1. #11

    Re: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramakrishna View Post
    Namaste,

    Please understand that I do not think that anything is off limits to the Lord. I believe God can do literally anything. The issue for me is not whether God was capable of doing these things, but whether these things actually happened here on Earth.

    Hare Krishna
    Namaste Ramakrishna

    We do understand. Also, i just want to make it clear that my post above (unlike all others on this thread) is not even remotely touching your original qn. It is only about why modern day avatArs do not appear like historical ones - since the discussion came up.

    The OP qn is about Itihas i.e. history on earth, so it does not include purANas, let's keep them aside for a moment.

    Itihas is recorded history + poetic skills, which had to come from the Divine, there is no other way the whole thing could fit so amazingly well.

    All i will say right now is : We are too conditioned to look at everything in our own material way , so the tendency is to compare with what our gross senses can comprehend. Including the strong assumption that what has not been invented/possible in modern science so far, could not possibly exist thousands of years ago. Its like science fiction today can turn into science tomorrow, but also science long ago.

    The celestials (Devas) did interact with humans long ago, however,
    we have to remember - they did so on a different platform - much higher than the material platform we are on. Shrila Veda Vyasa relates it to us in a language we can understand and comprehend with the material senses, using our pool of material knowledge.

    The known advice is to keep going with the assumption that "I am not ready to understand this yet". Then things will be clearer one day.

    Hare Krishna
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

    Vannakkam Smaranam: I'm learning stuff from this thread . Thank you for that. I had to do a bit of research and understand the Ramayana refers to the Treta Yuga, and my understanding about that involves lighter bodies, and yes, more interaction with devas.

    I have never ever really looked into it. My understanding now is that this history was recorded around 400 BC, but was actually about history said to be 8000 years ago. There would have had to be some divine info coming through the writer. Is that correct? Or are there different interpretations and ideas?

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

    namaste everyone.

    • The term 'itihAsa' splits into 'iti+ha+asa'--'thus verily happened'. Although 'itiAsa' by itself means 'it happened', so history, the additional 'ha' emphasizes that it 'verily, assuredly, really' happened.

    • Another speciality of an itihAsa is that it was written while it happened. VAlmIki Rshi wrote his 'RAmAyaNa' during the time shrI RAmA lived. It was in VAlmIki's Ashram that SItA had delivered her twins Lava and Kusha. VyAsa maharshi too witnessed the incidents he narrates in his 'MahAbhArata'. He was the Vyasa was grandfather to the Kauravas and PANDavas.

    • It is possible for great sages and yogis to merge with Ishvara without leaving any mortal remains, sublimating them instantly to their sources as a camphor burns. Apart from TirujnAna Sambandhar, Adi Shankara is said have entered Goddess KAmAkshi's sannidhi in KAnchi and merged with her. A recent case is that of RAmalinga SvAmigaL. This is how his disappearance is described in the Wikipedia:

    "Adigal on January 30, 1874, entered the room and locked himself and told his followers not to open it. He said that even if they did open it they would find nothing. His seclusion spurred many rumors, and the Government finally forced the doors open in May. The room was empty, with no clues. The Madras District Gazetteer published by the South Arcot District in 1906 records his disappearance." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramalinga_Swamigal)

    Some links to research on the itihAsas RAmAyaNa and MahAbhArata:
    Lanka: Location of: Sirdar MV Kibe
    http://www.archive.org/details/locationoflanka035096mbp

    Lanka: Trail in: BR haran
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/7731363/Ra...il-in-Srilanka

    rAma: Date: saroj bAla
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/7338350/Lo...orn-in-5114-BC

    rAmAyaNa: not myth
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/13262414/R...th-or-a-Legend

    rAmAyaNa: Proof of
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/3991924/Proof-Of-Ramayana

    vimAna-s: king rAvaNa
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/243182/Vim...g-Matchiens-IV

    mahAbhArata: Dating: celestial: RN ayyangAr
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/6290755/Hi...ic-society2003

    mahAbhArata: dating: timeline: KNS patnAik
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/7272399/Mahabharat-Timeline

    mahAbhArata: dating: war: subhASh kAk
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/6403178/Th...ahabharata-War

    mahAbhArata: Nuclear blast?
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/15966371/A...D-ATOMIC-BLAST

    mahAbhArata: Nuclear weapons?: C.Mulligan
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/7235168/An...uclear-Weapons

    dvAraka: Geological: RNI,BPR
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/5991606/Wh...by-RNI-and-BPR

    dvAraka: Sunken City
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/8734803/Th...City-of-Dwarka

    **********
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  4. #14

    Re: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

    praNAm Saidevoji

    Thanks for all the links. I always found the DwarkA excavations interesting - quite an achievement.


    **RAma appeared much earlier acc. to PurAN :

    He appeared in the TretA Yug of the 24th cycle.

    1. Several acharyas point out that VAyu PurAN 70.47-48, and BramhAnda PurAN state Shri RAm appeared in the 24th Chaturyuga cycle and we are now in the 28th cycle (of Vaivaswata Manu).


    2. RamayaN says RAvaNa's palace was guarded by strange animals, 4 tusked elephants (like Indra's ) and 3 tusked animals.
    One author suggests this means RAmayaN occured around ice age. http://www.hinduwebsite.com/history/...istortions.asp


    -------------

    I haven't been able to locate VAyu PurAN 70.47-48, but the 4 tusked elephants and 3 tusked animals , and considering earth's old history (billions of yrs - roughly 4? ) and plate tectonics, geological plate changes, foldings, (BhagvAn VishNu created new mountains...) all points to the 20 million old history.

    More interesting links in the next post....
    Last edited by smaranam; 27 May 2010 at 07:21 AM. Reason: Rephrased the last sentence to avoid misunderstanding of msg
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  5. #15

    Re: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

    Relevance of Manvantara Cycles in the Indian History
    http://kmarasakatla.org/earth/indology.html
    Sri Lanka was always accompanied the India on its journey from Africa around 65 million years ago to the present position and at some point of time crossed the equator. Africa also moved northward from that initial position in this period. We never envisioned the plate tectonics as part of the history because we assumed the human evolution as a recent phenomena.....
    Such a vast history of ancient India, which even has the scientific base in the ancient writings, has been compressed to a mere 1000-year period. All the false assumptions in the history will get exposed with further exploration in science. History may even become a part of science in the future.
    http://kmarasakatla.org/allpages.html
    Earth History from the Ancient Texts and It’s Relevance to the Science

    http://kmarasakatla.org/earth/ancienttexts.html
    Manvantara Cycles from the Ancient Vedic Texts
    Ancient Indian Vedic texts described the Earth history in terms of Manvantara cycles. There were a total of six complete Manvantara cycles in the history of the Earth and the present is the seventh cycle (3, 4). Each of the cycles begins with a global deluge on the surface of the Earth. In each of the global deluge, Manu saves the species on the Earth in an Ark. There were no species on the Earth before the first deluge therefore the first Manu was described as the first human being. Manvantara is the period between two consecutive Manus and lasts for approximately 308 My. The past six Manus were Swayambhuva Manu, Svarokisha Manu, Auttami Manu, Tamasa Manu, Raivata Manu and Kakshusha Manu. The present Manvantara began with the Vaivaswatha Manu.

    According to these texts the age of the Earth turns out to be around 2 billion years
    This is consistent with Shrimad BhAgvatam saying we are in the 7th Manwantara :

    >>Lord BrahmA's life consists of 2 'Parardha-s' , each being 50 Brahma yrs long.
    >>Our present BrahmAji has entered His 51st year - 1st day 1st yr of the 2nd 'Parardha'.
    >>We are in the 7th Manwantara (period of Manu) - half way since there are 14 Manwantaras.

    - Ref : "Glory of Krishna" - by Swami ChinmayAnanda


    Shri KRshNA Govinda Hare MurAre
    He nAth NArAyaNa VAsudeva ~
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  6. #16
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    Re: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    We know history to be his + story.


    If we take saidevo's lead we can look at this iti + ha +āsa and add a few more ideas:
    • iti - in this manner , thus . If we look to its original signification íti refers to something that has been said or thought , or lays stress on what precedes
    • Take a look at 'ha' .We know it is the 33rd and last consonant of the nāgarī alphabet; This is in pāṇini's system belonging to the guttural class ,
      and usually pronounced like the English 'h' in hard ; As I understand it is not an original letter , but is mostly derived from an older 'gh' , and hence ;
      If we look at ha - and its 3rd derivitve this word is identical with gha , and used as a particle for emphasizing a preceding word. So in this case the emphisis
      is on iti.
      • By the way 'ha' also means and is considered a form of śiva or bhairava
    Now this āsa - is defined as a seat, ( as in āsana ); lower part of the body behind, and also a bow. The key definition is posteriors ;
    It is from this notion of posteriors that we can arive at past tense, 'was', or 'before' i.e. a post ( past ) time. We then can come to one defintion:


    iti ( thus! ) + ( ha emphasis on iti ! ) + was before (āsa)

    Yet if we choose to look at ha as( long a ) we can extend the idea just a bit more. This has a defintion ( one of many) as knowledge,
    Now we have thus + knowledge + (of ) was before.

    Another view I am fond of is the following: is associated with śiva or bhairava , it is defined as an emission ' to cause to emit'.
    Many know of this letter called visagra . Visarga is defined as sending forth , emission . Yet we can use this now in iti + +āsa
    and this now becomes thus + (the) emmision of + (what) was before.


    praṇām


    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #17

    Re: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

    Itihaas means iti+hraas , or this happened same as sometime before EM and Smaranam had green lights and now black for unknown reason . Vedas word Kasmai devay havisha vidhem has three meanings , 1 as per Saidevoji affirmative meaning , 2 as per Advaitins Aham brahmasmi and meaning by Goswamiji , Chahat vari par bheet uthava or erecting the wall on water surface and 3 as Sachchidanad roop or Sagun parmatma . Sagun worship does not need history as it is subjected to shraddha only . Krsn says..
    Ashraddhayaa hutam dattam tapastaptam kritam cha yat;
    Asadityuchyate paartha na cha tatpretya no iha.
    Whatever is sacrificed, given or performed, and whatever austerity is practised without
    faith, it is called Asat, O Arjuna! It is naught here or hereafter (after death).
    Whatever sacrifice, austerity or charity done without being dedicated
    to the Lord will be of no avail to the doer in this earthly life here or in the life beyond hereafter.

    And the dedication can be done to Sagun only , again see
    Patram pushpam phalam toyam yo me bhaktyaa prayacchati;
    Tadaham bhaktyupahritamashnaami prayataatmanah.
    Whoever offers Me with devotion and a pure mind (heart), a leaf, a flower, a fruit or a
    little waterI [ not accept , but ashnami means eat ] so eat (this offering).

    And Sagun Brahman only can EAT .

  8. #18

    Re: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

    Quote Originally Posted by kd gupta View Post
    Sagun worship does not need history as it is subjected to shraddha only
    praNAm Guptaji,

    I agree completely. Really, KRshNa is all that matters to me. KRshNa is eternal, itihaas is one-time, yet His Divine touch makes it immortal.
    I don't care about itihaas except for the part that it is drinking the nectar of His pastimes, and drowning in awe of His creation, His 'harkatein' , and the astonishing accuracy of the Vedas.

    Itihaas means iti+haas , or this happened same as sometime before EM and Smaranam had green lights and now black for unknown reason .
    I don't understand what you mean.

    I am agreeing with what Saidevoji said, that itihaas was written while it happened. Rshi VAlmiki participated in RAma LIlA, So did KRshNa Dwaipayana VedaVyAs in KRshNa LIla.

    >>Only suggesting that Shri RAm appeared 19-20 million years ago (rather than 7-9000 yrs ago)
    >> in the 24th Chaturyuga cycle of Vaivaswata Manu, while we are now in the 28th cycle. Agni PurAN 70.47-48 (please see post #14).

    Post #15 shows a theory about geological changes over milleniums and how indeed itihAs and purANas are showing it. Another author - K. V. RamKrishna Rao , says the 4 tusked animals around RAvaNa's palace are Tetrabeloton, Dynothiyar - who lived 13 to 63 to 135 million YBP.

    ---

    Truth is not always convincing, and perhaps it should not be spoken when there is a risk of creating more disbelief and shaking people's faith. However, if it is the truth, it IS. We cannot compromise it for the sake of human material conditioning of how it is supposed to happen.

    Jai Shri KRshNa
    Last edited by smaranam; 27 May 2010 at 07:22 AM. Reason: Shraddha needs no history
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  9. #19
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    Re: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

    Namaste,

    Interesting question but as a Hindu, Itihasa is history.

    The important thing to keep in mind is, we cannot analyze the events of a different yuga in the present one. The way things were might have been quite different at those times (people being able to communicate with animals), advanced technologies that we have had to 're'-discover etc.

    The thing that has been really nagging, at least for me, is the question of time-scales.

    Some people, like Sri Yukteswar, state that the yugas have to be interpreted in a certain way so Kali Yuga will end in 2012 etc. while the traditionalists hold on to the view that yugas are thousands of years long (solar years). With this view, Rama's Bridge found from Rameswaram fits the bill because that bridge is supposed to be ~1.7 Million years old. And the Treta Yuga is around that time!

    Nonetheless, I firmly believe in the historicity, however quirky it may sound to us now, of the Itihasas.

    The thing I haven't figured out is, how do you wrap a snake around a mountain!??

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    Re: Were the Itihasas actual historical events?

    Pranam all

    That is what python do, warps round its victim to make a kill, here though big Vasuki agreed to be used as a rope, snakes have no difficulty to coil up, so I see no problem here, but I have read mountains had wings and moved about now try solve that conundrum.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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