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Thread: does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about jesus

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    does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about jesus

    Namaste,

    This was originally just meant to be a response to a post by ramakrishna but I typed a great length about islam too. I guess it came out along as I was responding to his sentences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramakrishna View Post
    For those of you who think that Jesus Christ never existed, what do you think of those Hindus who still choose to accept the supposed teachings of Jesus that include love, compassion, and forgiveness?
    You dont need jesus to learn about all these. There are tonnes of videos on youtube that argue against this supposed morality that xtianity provides us.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsgeXubzhf4

    watch 2:38 onwards
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLvf12lJuEQ

    best video ever
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCovYF51qHE

    an excellent debate
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l69QN7ixmM

    where was the morality of the british who colonized, tortured, humiliated, lied, suppressed and divided hindus up so that we should adopt xtianity and accept xtians as our rulers?

    and not to even speak of the british imperialism as white supermacy upon other races using the bible as justification.

    At the end of the day its the passages within the bible that tally with your intuition that you accept. So its a matter of agreement, between whats inside one "holy book" and your own intuition.

    Lets observe the quran's depiction of jesus

    In Islam, Jesus (Arabic: عيسى‎ `Īsā) is considered a prophet Messenger of God who had been sent to guide the People of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl (gospel).[1] The Qur'an, believed by Muslims to be God's final revelation, mentions Jesus 25 times.[2] It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid him in his quest, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles, all by the permission of God. According to Islamic texts, Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, but rather he was raised alive up to heaven
    The gospels are man-made completely. It may be corrupted or what not, but its originally corruption itself created by mere men. Lies can be corrupted further after being compiled. But they were originally lies and thus still are.

    A man that never existed, could not have been born by virginal conception, perform miracles nor raised alive up to the heavens.

    muhammad's main intention was to produce a "monotheistic" religion that would trump judaism and xtianity and convert everyone into his faith.

    thats why the quran gives description of moses and jesus and tries to potray them as prophets of its own deity and speak of them positively.

    the quran pretty much is a book designed to convert everyone. what is most impressive about it is how it takes advantage of the weaknesses of the human pyschology.

    if you are jewish or xtian you would naturally be attached to the main figure of your religion that is moses or jesus. so by incorporating them into his book and pretending to "explain" these figures muhammad used them as supposedly preaching about the deity he himself fashioned.

    the only intention here is to recruit jews and xtians by bringing them under his religion.

    muhammad had a very neat idea, he decided that his deity is the deity of all. but he alone is supposedly the "final and last"(both are the same thing but im quoting the way muslims speak here) messenger of God. and every other religion out there is corrupted.

    so whatever major/influential religions muhammad decided to deal with, he "explained" their figures as serving his own religion that he himself manufactured.

    if muhammad had decided to use Rama by spinning him to be a prophet... saying Rama was a great king for his people, a noble man of virtues, a great servant of "allah" that sought to kill ravana the enemy of "allah" who attacked innocent people because he was corrupted by "satan". and to fulfill his destiny by killing the enemy of allah, allah granted him miracles such as the boons, the vanara army and the bridge to lanka...

    heck I dont even want to think about it.

    you see how they play with emotions and potray themselves as better
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU8fiayHbVk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoxvKj-z0_0

    really when you get to the bottom of it all, its just really messed up, its just sheer exploitation.

    and if these people just left whatever they practiced to themselves alone it would be alright. but they want to try and stand above us.

    you can just see for yourself the countless number of muslims on youtube trying to propagate their religion. and these filthy untouchables have the audacity to try and tackle our faith.

    heres one example
    http://www.youtube.com/user/hijabiflower

    just read her description

    This is my official youtube Channel.
    I am a Sunni Muslim
    I love Islam and I also have love for my Nation of Islam brothers and sisters. I respect all religions and races. I am just trying to be a good muslim. If you have any questions about Islam, muslim women, Nation of Islam, hindu and sikh culture or anything else I will do my best to answer. Asalamu Aleikum (Peace be upon you)

    this of course, is all deception. she is performing taqiyyah and dawah.

    she calls herself "hijabiflower".

    the hijab is the clothing that covers all of the skin. and is supposed to "preserve" of modesty and sign of chastisity.

    ironically, this "flower" who has decided to conceal her delicate self in garbage bags in order to prove her modesty and chastisity has got such words to offer.

    just read her recent comments

    "@LouisC89 Yeah, too bad your western women's *censored* are way too loose for muslim men. Western women need some cream to tighten up before they come to the muslim town "
    and so much for respect of all people huh.

    "If this was true why are soo many western women attracted to islam? Maybe Islam is strangly liberating or maybe your women are just stupid... something tells me my first suggestion might make more sense"
    Yeah your allah.

    who is she to try and explain to me about Hinduism?

    these people are utterly disgusting and i dont ever want to associate myself with them. surely not having to embrace them as siblings of faith.

    the muslims have a very bad image in the west, which is mainly due to their own behaviour. they have no one else to blame, really.

    and yet today somehow they are mysteriously "moderate" and "peaceful".

    history only shows to this as being much to the contrary. we dont have to go any further than the days of muhammad himself. the man who started this all.

    and you dont have to judge muslims or the history of islam either. the quran speaks for itself.

    What do you think of Mohandas Gandhi, who found solace in the teachings of Jesus, especially the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount?
    Gandhi afterall was a politician. I could care less what he had to say about religion. As a politician you'd want to butter up to as many people as possible.

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    Re: does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about je

    This is a most interesting question. To give Ramakrishna an answer, I'm always in favor of people practicing love, compassion, and forgiveness. Qualities such as this will make the world a better place to live in, whether they are practiced by Hindus, Christians, or atheists.

    However, I would point this out. While the words of Jesus offer us morality, the same moral teachings can be found in Hinduism. Shirdi Sai Baba, for example, teaches the same things. Secondly, the wider teachings of Christianity are, contrary to popular belief, not moral at all. Christianity is fundamentally opposed to family values. Christianity teaches that non-Christians should convert to their religion, and discard their families if they refuse to follow suit. For all that Christian politicians preach about family values, these values only work when everyone around you (without exception) happens to be Christian as well.

    If we start accepting Christianity and allowing it to poison Hindu culture, we will be causing the degradation of morals and cultural values. Christianity is, when practiced properly, a fundamentally immoral religion.

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    Re: does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about je

    Namaste Kumar_Das,

    I watched all of the videos you linked to, and I already knew most of the things the videos are about. I am well aware of the violence, hypocrisy, and hatred that is present in Christianity and the Bible. I have never read the Old Testament, and I never intend to, as that is the part of the Bible that contains most of the hatred and violence in it. I have read pieces of the New Testament, and I will continue to reflect on the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes for inspiration.

    I totally understand what you are saying, that Hindus do not need Jesus for morality. However, I see no problem if we look into some of the sayings of Christ for morality and inspiration. I completely agree that all of the good morals and sayings of Jesus are present in Hinduism as well. I acknowledge that the core teachings of the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes are found in Hindu scriptures as well, which predate the Bible hundreds and even thousands of years.

    Christians view the Bible as the word of God, and they must accept every word of it if they are really Christians. However, as a Hindu, I am free to pick and choose what verses I want to accept and learn from. Of course I completely reject the hate-filled and utterly ridiculous Bible verses. Yet, I also accept some teachings from the Bible, like the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes. I understand if you want to reject 100% of what is in the Bible, since whatever good is in the Bible is also present in Hinduism. However, I choose to accept those select few Bible verses, and I also acknowledge that those teachings are present in Hinduism as well.

    The Islamic view of Christ is very interesting indeed. I agree with you that Muhammad incorporated Jesus and Moses into his religion that he was making up so it could be seen as the completion of the Abrahamic faith. It started with Judaism, continued with Christianity, and Muhammad would end it. Muslims view Christ as the second greatest prophet, after Muhammad. It was quite a clever idea by Muhammad, and it seems to have worked, as Islam so far has spread faster than Christianity and within a few decades it is expected to overtake Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumar_Das View Post


    Gandhi afterall was a politician. I could care less what he had to say about religion. As a politician you'd want to butter up to as many people as possible.
    This is the one thing I disagree with you about. Mohandas Gandhi, to me and many others, was much more than a politician. He was the father of India, a nonviolent leader, a revolutionary, and a great religious leader. I care a lot about what Gandhi had to say about religion. He was as devout a Hindu as you can be, yet he still showed the greatest respect for the truth that was present in other religions. One of my favorite quotes by Gandhi is, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." I do not think Gandhi was open to other religions just so he could butter up to as many people as possible. He never hesitated to point out the hypocrisy in many Christians, and how they were so unlike Christ. He was open to other religions because he accepted the truth and goodness that were present in them, and at the same time he rejected the lies and hatred that were also present in them. That is what I do.

    Hare Krishna

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    Re: does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about je

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumar_Das View Post
    Namaste,

    You dont need jesus to learn about all these. There are tonnes of videos on youtube that argue against this supposed morality that xtianity provides us.

    where was the morality of the british who colonized, tortured, humiliated, lied, suppressed and divided hindus up so that we should adopt xtianity and accept xtians as our rulers?


    At the end of the day its the passages within the bible that tally with your intuition that you accept. So its a matter of agreement, between whats inside one "holy book" and your own intuition.


    The gospels are man-made completely. It may be corrupted or what not, but its originally corruption itself created by mere men. Lies can be corrupted further after being compiled. But they were originally lies and thus still are.
    I agree. You don't need Jesus to teach you morality but you do need Him to be able to practice it. I am not saying that you couldn't practice morality to some extent without Him but the extent that people fall short is described in the world about you.

    You are quick to judge but you have to be judged by the same standard. Are you going to tell me that people from India were always perfect and never did anything wrong? What about the war that Arjuna was fighting that Krishna considered a necessary act of righteousness because the enemy deserved it?

    One would hope that Hindus had a better Dharma than intuition. If there is one God wouldn't you expect Him to be consistent? Granted that it appears He adjusts laws to fit the culture but I believe the intent of the law is the same.

    This is a complete falsehood no matter who holds the opinion.

    There is no doubt that Muslims have a dim view of Jesus but that is because they have misconstrued their own scripture and ignored the gospel (that the Qu'ran says God gave to Jesus). A Hindu could do the same thing by wringing words from Krishna to make Him sound more like God than Jesus and point to Jesus as a phony. This kind of outlook does not come from God but from ego.

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    Question Re: does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about je

    Quote Originally Posted by jaggin View Post
    I agree. You don't need Jesus to teach you morality but you do need Him to be able to practice it. I am not saying that you couldn't practice morality to some extent without Him but the extent that people fall short is described in the world about you.
    Namaste jaggin

    I remember that our last interaction stopped when i asked you whether you thought Jesus alone was the way and thus hindus were sort of lost? You did not answer. WRT to falling short aspect you have written above, i respectfully note the same in your view.

    Hindus did not need Jesus, else God would have ensured his birth/appearance/manifestation on this soil. And the wise men of east would not have declared His coming. You will note that the wild men of west killed Him eventually.

    About the WAY, can you kindly tell me whether Jesus the physical man is the way or Jesus the spiritual truth is the way? If the former was true then there was never a way before Jesus appeared in physical form. Whereas we know that the WAY (we call it Gati called Vishnu) is without beginning as God/Brahman is.


    I hope you are able to accept that Christianity/churchianity is about politics more than it is about spirituality. At the outset, I accept that this phenomenon is not absent in any religion to lesser or more extent but in my view Christians are distorting the goodness with their strenuos effort at finding s--t elsewhere rather than in themselves.

    Why should a christian or a hindu or any spiritual seeker occupy his/her mind with what wrong exists elsewhere - in others and in the world, rather than striving to become perfect oneself? Is God then a powerless and strait jacketed fellow that He has no freedom except for acting through Jesus? And do not bigoted/hardliner Muslims also claim that Muhammad is the only prophet, when you know and I know that Koran does not say so?


    In short: Hindus do not need Christians to teach them. Christians who are over concerned with smelly s--t elsewhere but not in themselves are acting out of rajo guna -- with a distorted Royal outlook. A reaction sets in the world.

    Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya

    Note: Granted that i have allowed my awareness to drift to a political question which is of no avail since the omnipotent and omniscient Lord is the WAY.
    Last edited by atanu; 12 June 2010 at 08:47 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about je

    Quote Originally Posted by jaggin View Post
    One would hope that Hindus had a better Dharma than intuition. ------
    Namaste Jaggin

    Most people do not know what you are saying and how treachorous you are here. How do you know that Hindus have only intuition? It is a dogma in your religion that you are expressing here.

    What you call mere Intuition is obtained not in human mind. I will request you to kindly be more straightforward. Do you think that deviousness is superior morality?

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about je

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Jaggin

    Most people do not know what you are saying and how treachorous you are here. How do you know that Hindus have only intuition? It is a dogma in your religion that you are expressing here.

    What you call mere Intuition is obtained not in human mind. I will request you to kindly be more straightforward. Do you think that deviousness is superior morality?

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Namaste jaggin

    With your confirmation about victory of All (Lord) for All in the thread 'Christianity is Simpler', I take back above post. Sorry for the harsh tone. Kindly forgive me.

    Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about je

    Quote Originally Posted by jaggin View Post
    I agree. You don't need Jesus to teach you morality but you do need Him to be able to practice it. I am not saying that you couldn't practice morality to some extent without Him but the extent that people fall short is described in the world about you.
    I keep hearing evangelical Christians of all stripes making the claim that true morality is impossible without belief in Jesus and conversion to Christianity. However I never have seen any justification for this claim. There are Christians who are highly moral, and Christians who are highly immoral. The same is true of Hindus, assuming that we Hindus are being judged by your Judeo-Christian standard of ethics. All the rhetorical gymnastics in the world won't get you away from the fact that Christianity has no apparent effect one personal morality. The only way out of this dilemma is for you to count belief in Jesus as a point of morality. At that point you've come up with a useless definition of morality; if belief in Jesus is defined as a moral act, then Hindus are immoral by definition.

    The fact is, Christianity has no discernable effect on the way Christians live their lives. There's no evidence for this belief that faith in Christianity is necessary for personal morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    I remember that our last interaction stopped when i asked you whether you thought Jesus alone was the way and thus hindus were sort of lost? You did not answer. WRT to falling short aspect you have written above, i respectfully note the same in your view.
    To be fair to him, one would probably get kicked off of HDF for saying "believe in Jesus or you'll go to hell." But yes, I've noticed that evangelicals will rarely start out by telling a person that he's headed for hell. They will refuse to answer this question and instead default to "only God can judge people." This, I feel, is a cop out. Everyone knows that Christianity prescribes condemnation for the rest of us. But Christians know that this is, at best, a highly impolite thing to say to anyone, and thus will obscure that belief even though they hold to it. If you look at the now-famous guide for converting Hindus, it says that you should never bring up the following two point of Christian doctrine when trying to convert one of us:
    1. Christianity teaches that Hindus are going to hell.
    2. Christianity requires Hindu converts to also convert their families, or abandon them altogether.
    The first point of doctrine is obscured because they know we view God as highly benevolent, and above condemning human souls for the sake of his own glory. The second point is obscured because they know the high commitment that we have to family values. This is why I have been saying that Christianity is opposed to family values. I hope that evangelicals will ask themselves: what kind of a religion tries to hide its own beliefs from proselytes? Doesn't this sound like the kinds of disclaimers that corporations put into the fine print of their commercials? Does this sound like the kind of religion that God would have us practice?

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    Re: does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about je

    1. Christianity teaches that Hindus are going to hell.
    I hear what you are saying, but honestly I don't care that much what Christians believe. Let them, it's not our problem really.

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    Re: does xtianity have to offer us morality? and why islam says what it does about je

    It is a problem when you are surrounded by them.

    Our children were given bibles as a present in their public school class and when they kindly decline, they were threatened with eternal damnation.

    Numerous times children pressure our children to tell them why they won't go to church with them and when my child finally admits that we are not Christian...the other child declares in front of everyone that we will burn in hell.

    Church is big business here, there dozens and dozens, even in tiny communities. They need lots of money for operation. So they hold "fun festivals" "community festival" or "family festivals" where they pay for bouncy houses, free food and balloons. Then they hold givaways for free cell phones or Ipods. They get your name off the list and begin calling you. A friend of mine went through this, I was smart enough to stay away from those things...nothing is ever "free".

    The parents are even sneakier...they draw you in by having a "sleep over" on a Saturday night. The next day you get a call early saying that they can't give your son a ride home because they have church...but they would love to bring your son with them and they will just drop him off after.

    You immediately have to rush out the door so your child is not left alone, or drug into indoctrination. I can not count the times on my hands this has happened...it's been many many numerous times. So many, I refuse to let my children sleep over on Saturdays.

    The worst offender of this behavior was a child who my son had to have contact with because he was Senior Drama department president. This girl would hold cast parties and offer to drive all the drama department home afterwards. But then would refuse to take them home unless they went to church with her. He called me more than once begging me to come get him before she left for her church.

    Sometimes I feel as if we live in a pressure cooker.

    I have met kind, loving Christians in my lifetime...three were like Fathers to me. A mormon elder, catholic priest and the last was a black southern baptist preacher who taught me about modesty, purity and compassion.

    When I was 13 years old, my whole world was coming apart, that black man protected me from preditors, and reminded me that this moment of darkness could define who I became or who I didn't. I didn't.

    Now, these were the pinacles of compassion and love. Sadly...very sadly...these creatures are as rare in my lifetime as double rainbows.

    You could learn morality from a christian, but it could literally take a lifetime to find such a being amongst the others...it's the human condition.

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