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Thread: Allah - The moon god

  1. #41
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    Exclamation Unrelated to "Allah - The moon god"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggin

    For years Christianity was saddled with the concept that only priests could understand scripture. The problem is that with all their years of study they were often wrong.
    For years Medicine has considered that only trained surgeons can safely perform operations. Despite all their years of study, however, qualified doctors sometimes make mistakes (and a few are even found to be frauds). So, following your logic, Medical Science would be improved by discarding any requirement of special training or accepted qualifications!! In Protestant Christianity, the lunatics have surely taken over the asylum!

  2. #42
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    Exclamation No comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satay

    I bet my pet dog knows more tricks than your jehovah.
    This kind of spiteful rubbish has no place in Dharma!

    I am traveling for the next couple of weeks and will have little chance to post.
    Last edited by sarabhanga; 13 November 2006 at 03:18 PM.

  3. #43
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    Re: Allah - The moon god

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakti Yoga Seeker
    I am not interested in your preaching or proselytizing here and neither are other Hindu board members. If you want to learn about other faiths, then you need to do unbiased research on it and ask reasonable questions. You are making assumptions and trying to talk intelligently on something that you clearly know nothing about. Virtually every religion including polytheistic ones believes in a Supreme Power of some sort so your comment about "placing some other God above Him" has no place in this discussion and it is a form of preaching because you are essentially saying that only the Christian God is the "real" God. Most pagans and polytheists believe that God is one but that God can represented in many different forms, personalities, names, etc., and will also be seen as formless, nameless, and limitless at the same time. I have yet to meet a pagan that believes in a "my God can beat up your God" mentality.

    As to idolatry, those who worship idols don't actually worship the idol itself. Instead, they use the idol as a medium for meditation on God or as a symbolic representation of God depending on the adherent. Be aware that before you start pointing out faults in other religions, make sure that the same don't apply to your faith. Almost every Christian church features one or more crosses, one or more paintings of Jesus, and prayers often are directed toward Jesus instead of "God." These examples can also be seen as idolatry since the cross is being used as a representation of God taking the form of a human and sacrificing himself. Referring to Jesus as God or "son of God" is placing God in the form of a human and creating a distinction between a formless God and a God with a form. So your criticisms of our religion putting a name or face on God are hypocritical when your religion does the exact same thing.



    True but naturally you will follow such a statement with something along the lines that "the will of God" is defined in the Christian Bible yet there is no way of proving that the Bible is actually God's word other than what people say. Of course I wouldn't quite agree that "only God is good" because people can also be "good" but will show saintly qualities to a much lesser degree than God.



    That is simply your opinion and is not really appropriate for this forum. If you don't approve of Hinduism, why are you here on this forum? Why don't you take your criticisms elsewhere? I also don't see how you could know much about the philosophy of Hinduism because it isn't something that can be easily and instantly understood. The greatest Hindu sages still have spent years studying dharmic philosophy. Hinduism cannot just be grasped in a couple of hours of reading. It is recommended that Hindus keep studying philosophy and associating with other devotees in worship so that the learning and growth can continue. I would be curious to hear just how much philosophy you think you know about Hinduism at least if you do have something positive to contribute on the subject.



    Qu'ran is Arabic transliterated into English and Koran is English. I don't see how this is "foreign to the English tongue." Learning basic vocabulary and cultural facts such as what pertains to the second largest religion in the world is simply having the minimal level of education and literacy that one would expect anyone at least by the age of adulthood to have. I don't know what country you are from but regardless knowing how to spell and say such a basic word is elementary education. Of course if it is the United States which I also live in, I am not surprised. Schools here don't seem to teach much about anything multicultural or what goes on in the world outside of Western society. ~BYS~
    That is similar to what God gave me to say about this except that those idol worshippers who really did worship the idols are no longer around so I think you must be referring specifically to Hindusim. There are representations of God in the Christian church but they are not usually worshipped. THe Catholics may come a little bit closer to that with their approach to the crucifix. Muslims and Jews follow a more stringent legal system where any representation would be forbidden and I found none when I worshipped with Muslims.

    I have seen people get close to idolatry with their view of the Bible, and religion. The problem with representations is that they provide a temptation to worship the creation in place of the creator.

    My main interest is not in pointing out faults of a religion but simply to convey what God expects of people. If your religious beliefs lead you to do something different, then you are in danger of incurring the wrath of God. Neither I nor God wish to see that happen.

    Jesus claims to be God just as Krishna does. I believe this is so 1. because the prohet Isaiah foretold it 2. because God on the outside of Jesus proclaimed himself to be inside Jesus. This can occur only because of God's omnipresence.

    You are in error on this. It is a crucifix which is a representation of God. The cross itself is a symbol of shame, torment and death, not something that anyone is likely to worship. It is a simple reminder of an event that happened on the cross that is important to Christians.

    That is true of any scripture.

    I don't think in terms of approbation or non-approbation. My object is to seek truth where it may be found and the spirit of God leads me into a recognition of it when I see it. In speaking of Philosophy in Hinduism, I was referring to the Uphannishads (I hope I spelled that right). The Vedas have more of a sound of authority to them. I love valid criticism myself because it helps me learn what is valuable in my own beliefs. If you don't like criticism does that mean that you don't believe your beliefs have value? In the crucible of criticism what is dross will be burned away and what remains is gold.

    I will reiterate that my understanding doesn't come from being taught by a guru or study but from God himself who knows all things. This puts me ahead of the most learned Hindu philosopher in some ways. However God doesn't inform me about everything so there is still much I can learn.

  4. #44
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    Re: Allah - The moon god

    Quote Originally Posted by satay

    As you tout 'no idol' most christians that i know wear the cross around their necks, essentially a picture of a dead man albeit their guru! Your 'church' itself is an idol if you feel anykind of spirituality going there then it is a idol. If you don't agree with me on this, I challenge you to spit on or kick the altar next time you visit the church. If something inside you doesn't allow you to do it then in your mind that altar is an 'idol' already.
    What you are talking about is not worship but respect or disrespect. I give respect where it is due and disrespect where it is due. I would not hesitate to spit on an idol of Moloch which was responsible for children being offered. I would not spit on a statue of the god Venus even though that god might have been subject to sinful ways because that god was not dedicated to wickedness. I wouldn't disrespect a statue of Shiva.
    And most of all I do not mean any disrespect to you. As a Christian I recognize from the words of Jesus that I need to see Jesus in you and have the same respect for you as I would for Him.

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    Re: Allah - The moon god

    Quote Originally Posted by jaggin
    I have seen people get close to idolatry with their view of the Bible, and religion. The problem with representations is that they provide a temptation to worship the creation in place of the creator.
    The propensity of identifying the creation with the creator may be real for a non-Hindu, because he/she is conditioned by his/her religion that way. Such problems never exist in Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) where even an illiterate farmer knows that he worships God in many forms but the worship is meant for the One God. Hindu Dharma has taught such wisdom right from his childhood. A personal God is the greatest spiritual boon of this age of Kali Yuga that has come right from the One God.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaggin
    My main interest is not in pointing out faults of a religion but simply to convey what God expects of people. If your religious beliefs lead you to do something different, then you are in danger of incurring the wrath of God. Neither I nor God wish to see that happen.
    How do you know what God expects of his children? Who are you to judge the different paths to God? 'Neither I nor God' -- You seem to be of the Zakir Naik type. Does your religion approve of your equating you with your God and say 'Neither I nor God'? Hinduism allows it and says that you and God are the same because God is immanent in you.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaggin
    I will reiterate that my understanding doesn't come from being taught by a guru or study but from God himself who knows all things. This puts me ahead of the most learned Hindu philosopher in some ways. However God doesn't inform me about everything so there is still much I can learn.
    Wow, here we have a 21st century Christ! May be the Second Coming! You would surely know that there are strong evidences that your Jesus Christ himself learnt spiritual sadhana from Indian yogis, and yet you are sure you don't need a guru. That's really marvelous and makes you even an inch taller than Christ!

    There is a saying 'those who have seen won't talk and those who talk haven't seen'. An abstract God is the last leg of the spiritual journey. Human mind needs a concrete representation to fix itself in worship. This applies to followers of all faiths. Jesus spoke of himself as the Son, and of God as his Father. As an incarnation, Jesus becomes a representation of God, a symbol of God that may be identified with the One God. Suppose there is no Jesus, no Krishna (and other Gods of Hinduism) and no Black Stone at the Kabah. Can you and I ever think of God, let alone talk about Him?

  6. #46
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    Re: No comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    This kind of spiteful rubbish has no place in Dharma! I am too appalled to comment further.

    I am traveling for the next couple of weeks and will have little chance to post. And I am sorry that I have wasted any time on this particular “discussion”.
    namaste,

    You are right in saying that the type of comment I made has no place in Dharma however, my comment is not a 'spiteful rubbish'. My comment is in the context of another post made by our christian friend in "I am Shiva" forum where he gave the christian prespective on "Agni" calling Agni deva a devil.

    Have a good and safe travel...see you soon.
    satay

  7. #47
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    Re: Allah - The moon god

    Quote Originally Posted by jaggin
    And most of all I do not mean any disrespect to you. As a Christian I recognize from the words of Jesus that I need to see Jesus in you and have the same respect for you as I would for Him.
    namaste,
    This is nothing new. Most christian missionaries employ this technique in frustration when nothing seems to work and when all missionary nonsense gets slapped back in their faces by hindus (sometimes at the expense of going out of the dharmic fold in the heat of the moment).

    If you truly see Jesus in non-believers then you should let them be and not interfere and past judgments about their concept of GOD, philosophies and gurus. You should mind your own business like the hindus do and stop supplying money to your church to support missions in the poor, uneducated countries of africa and asia.

    I challenge you, if you truly see jesus in all beings then have full faith in jesus and not take it upon yourself to show the 'pagans' the true GOD. Most importantly, the next time the basket of money comes your way in the sunday church asking for money for 'mission activities of the church' leave everything to jesus and do not contribute.

    Can you truly take on this challenge or are you going to put your foot in your mouth now?
    satay

  8. #48
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    Re: Allah - The moon god

    Quote Originally Posted by jaggin
    That is similar to what God gave me to say about this except that those idol worshippers who really did worship the idols are no longer around so I think you must be referring specifically to Hindusim. There are representations of God in the Christian church but they are not usually worshipped. THe Catholics may come a little bit closer to that with their approach to the crucifix. Muslims and Jews follow a more stringent legal system where any representation would be forbidden and I found none when I worshipped with Muslims.
    Hindus do not have "idols". You use the word "idol" due to your limited understanding of anything outside of the sphere of christianity. Hindus have 'murthis'; the best translation or closest translation could be 'statue', essentially, a representation of GOD and his nature.

    Even a farmer working in cow dung all day in India knows that when he bows his head to the murthi of any representation of GOD that he is bowing his head to the divine that the murthi represents.

    However, most christian 'scholars' don't seem to comprehend this simple act of worship.

    My wife is a catholic christian and our 'temple' in our house has both jesus 'idols as well as hindu murthis. So this rubbish of christians don't use idols for worship is simply that, a rubbish.




    I have seen people get close to idolatry with their view of the Bible, and religion. The problem with representations is that they provide a temptation to worship the creation in place of the creator.
    So you are saying that christians are more like Buddhists, worshipping the 'void' that is shunyavada!


    My main interest is not in pointing out faults of a religion but simply to convey what God expects of people. If your religious beliefs lead you to do something different, then you are in danger of incurring the wrath of God. Neither I nor God wish to see that happen.
    GOD doesn't have any wrath to 'show'.


    Jesus claims to be God just as Krishna does. I believe this is so 1. because the prohet Isaiah foretold it 2. because God on the outside of Jesus proclaimed himself to be inside Jesus. This can occur only because of God's omnipresence.
    Jesus claimed to be god just like any vadanti would in samadhi; that's the final stage of meditation.

    Please do not compare Krishna to jesus. Krishna is GOD, essentially the 'father' jesus referred to.


    You are in error on this. It is a crucifix which is a representation of God. The cross itself is a symbol of shame, torment and death, not something that anyone is likely to worship. It is a simple reminder of an event that happened on the cross that is important to Christians.
    This kind of statement is absurd and doesn't make any sense to any student of Vedanta or Hinduism. Even a small hindu child knows that 'any single event in time' can not affect the 'real' soul or atma. So this obsession of christians to get stuck to a bunch of events in 'time' are nonsense to most hindus.


    That is true of any scripture.

    I don't think in terms of approbation or non-approbation. My object is to seek truth where it may be found and the spirit of God leads me into a recognition of it when I see it. In speaking of Philosophy in Hinduism, I was referring to the Uphannishads (I hope I spelled that right). The Vedas have more of a sound of authority to them. I love valid criticism myself because it helps me learn what is valuable in my own beliefs. If you don't like criticism does that mean that you don't believe your beliefs have value? In the crucible of criticism what is dross will be burned away and what remains is gold.

    I will reiterate that my understanding doesn't come from being taught by a guru or study but from God himself who knows all things. This puts me ahead of the most learned Hindu philosopher in some ways. However God doesn't inform me about everything so there is still much I can learn.
    Are you alright... I am beginning to wonder if you are on some kind of medication and if you are not, perhaps a visit to a doctor is in order.
    satay

  9. #49
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    Post Re: No comment.

    Namaste Satay,

    Thanks for editing recent inflammatory comments.

    Personal insults are not good, and insulting someone's Guru (just as their respected parents) is worse, and insulting God (by whatever name, and for whatever reason) is extremely foolish!

    Best wishes to you and your family (and to all members of HDF)!

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    Re: Allah - The moon god

    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    namaste,
    This is nothing new. Most christian missionaries employ this technique in frustration when nothing seems to work and when all missionary nonsense gets slapped back in their faces by hindus (sometimes at the expense of going out of the dharmic fold in the heat of the moment).

    If you truly see Jesus in non-believers then you should let them be and not interfere and past judgments about their concept of GOD, philosophies and gurus. You should mind your own business like the hindus do and stop supplying money to your church to support missions in the poor, uneducated countries of africa and asia.

    I challenge you, if you truly see jesus in all beings then have full faith in jesus and not take it upon yourself to show the 'pagans' the true GOD. Most importantly, the next time the basket of money comes your way in the sunday church asking for money for 'mission activities of the church' leave everything to jesus and do not contribute.

    Can you truly take on this challenge or are you going to put your foot in your mouth now?
    You doubt my sincerity? On what basis do you doubt it? If I reach out with the Gospel at times it is because I and all Christians are under command from God to preach it. Are you going to recommend that we disobey God?

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