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Thread: Shiva subordinate to Vishnu in the Ramayana?

  1. #1

    Shiva subordinate to Vishnu in the Ramayana?

    Namaste,

    I was watching a series of videos about the ISKCON view of the different deities, and I found the one about Lord Shiva particularly interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD3MU...eature=related


    At about the 7:25 mark, the speaker says how the demon Ravana was one of the greatest devotees of Lord Shiva. Towards the end of the Ramayana, when Ravana's life was in danger, Lord Shiva was asked why he wouldn't save Ravana. His replied was that there was no use in trying to save Ravana, because when God wants to kill someone, not even he can protect him. This is what the speaker in the video says.

    I am posting this in this section instead of the ISKCON or Saivite sections because I want to know if this is what happened in the Ramayana. It is interesting to note that in that context, the speaker refers to Lord Rama as the supreme Lord, even though ISKCON believes Lord Krishna is the supreme Lord. Maybe he thinks that Lord Krishna was acting through Lord Rama? Anyway, the whole point he was trying to make throughout the entire video was that Lord Shiva is subordinate to Lord Vishnu. I was not even aware that Lord Shiva was in the Ramayana, but of course I've never read it. Could it be said then that the Ramayana is mainly a Vaishnavite work since according to this video, Lord Shiva is subordinate to Lord Vishnu?

    Hare Krishna

  2. #2

    Re: Shiva subordinate to Vishnu in the Ramayana?

    Namaste.

    Rather than answer you directly, I just want to point out both the futility of this argument and its total irrelevance. The whole "Shiva vs Vishnu" song and dance has been repeated ad nauseum for hundreds of years without resolution, and without doing anybody any good! It cannot be solved as it is not the result of rational self inquiry, nor is it a legitimate issue. It is simply a product of sectarian bias and egotism.

    Vishnu is not exalted by the inferiority of Shiva. Shiva is not exalted by the inferiority of Vishnu. God is most exalted when the concept of inferiority in general falls away, having no place in brahman. Obsessing about which god is superior is to entirely miss the point of both gods, who really are one.

    One can accurately state that Vishnu is the face of Shiva, and Shiva is the face of Vishnu. Or that they are one and the same, aspects of one another and brahman as perfect archetypes of Purusha/Saguna Brahman/Ishvara. Distinct, but not mutually exclusive. Ishvara shows his divine glory in a multitude of forms to benefit jivatman deluded by ahamkara. Sadhana is not a path of exaltation, there is no need to “build divinity,” instead the task is to dissolve the ego. The divinity is always there. Thus sadhana is poison to the ego, not a vehicle for the ego to project itself into divinity. This argumentation about the superiority of gods is really just displaced egotism. The sadhaka invests his ego into the god, and champions the god as a subtle form of championing his own ego by association. It is just like how people associate and identify with sports teams and all the attendant fervor and rivalry.

    There is plenty of scriptural evidence on both sides of this artificial fence, some supporting Shiva as supreme, some Vishnu as supreme, in support not of the truth, but of the biases of the authors (and pernicious editors) as well as intended audiences.

    But in reality Vishnu and Shiva do not exist "as such." Both are comparatively recent conceptualizations of God. Before people get angry about this statement, please let me explain what is meant.

    Shiva isn't referred to until around 300-100 BCE. Vishnu appears in the vedas, but is a relatively minor god. We associate Shiva with the vedic Rudra, who is also a relatively minor god. Indra is more or less the centerpiece of vedic deities ... except there is Varuna, who is spiritually superior to Indra (although Indra is the temporal ruler). Varuna is the conceptual "progenitor" of the modern trimurti.

    Vishnu and Shiva are not in competition with eachother! They do not vie with one another for divine status! Such is POINTLESS. They are in perfect harmony, equality and oneness. Shiva is the greatest devotee of Vishnu. Shiva is one with Vishnu. Vishnu is the greatest devotee of Shiva. Vishnu is one with Shiva.

    It is simply that the pattern that older conceptualizations of God fall away, and the new ones are championed - often at expense of their direct forebears, as well as their contemporaries.

    I mean no disrespect AT ALL to Vishnu or Shiva, or worshipers of bhagavan in these blessed forms. The truth, the principles, the essence which Vishnu or Shiva represent are indisputable and fill me with adoration. I love the forms this Truth has taken in showing us the Trimurti. It is most excellent. However... it is still transient and ephemeral. The beauty of the trimurti is that it is simultaneously partite, representing specific sets of concepts and aspects, both gross and subtle as there are different varieties/levels even within one aspect (IE: braddha rudra, ishana rudra shiva, panchavaktra shiva, ardhanarishvara, etc. - partite/ascending forms of Shiva within a well known tantric sadhana) as well as one. Just like the word Aum, which is comprised of three letters unified in a single word.


    In hundreds of thousands of years, if humanity survives (which is in doubt, to be frank,) it is entirely likely that Vishnu and Shiva will be long forgotten, in so far as Vishnu and Shiva are mere words, composed of sounds which however excellent are not Parasabda, which is the essence of saguna brahman (which both Vishnu and Shiva exemplify most admirably.) Instead, sanatana dharma will have different names - if humanity even needs such terminology at that time, different aspects appropriate to the time and culture, representative of That which is beyond all such limited notions of locality and temporality.

    If we conceive of God in a certain aspect regarded as supreme, then it is this aspect which grants us direct experience of the supreme. However, this aspect must have the right attributes. It is not a good idea to come up new gods by oneself. the sages have done this throughout history for the benefit of humanity, clothing raw divinity into the right aspects for the time period and culture. It is therefore unsurprising that when a Shaivite experiences god realization from the lowest to the highest, it is through and as Shiva. And that when a Vishnaiva experiences the same realizations, it is through and as Vishnu. Both are true. Both are valid. Some sampradayas achieve these realizations through an ascending series of deities presided over by one's istha-devata. Ishvara is the source and culmination of all three aspects of the Trimurti, yet if we single out one - Vishnu or Shiva - as Bhagavan, this is ALSO correct, because they are not merely emissaries of Ishvara, but the entirety in of themselves.

    In conclusion, I recommend disregarding completely all claims about the supremacy of one or the other, and to think seriously about whether or not you want to listen to people who go on about it. They may well have great truths to share with you that you should be attentive to given the opportunity, but I submit to you that there are better teachers. Worship that which sings to your heart, not as receptacle of ego-identity, but as the antidote.

    Namaste.
    Last edited by Avazjan; 06 June 2010 at 12:46 AM.

  3. #3

    Re: Shiva subordinate to Vishnu in the Ramayana?

    ISKCON became corrupted. Theres no point trying debate about anything.


    Srila Prabhupada was trying all he could to produce a spiritually strong army.

    Then what happened? After his death they started quarelling, getting stonned and turning it into a hippie loonie frenzy orgy.

    So sad.
    Last edited by satay; 05 June 2010 at 01:29 PM.

  4. #4

    Re: Shiva subordinate to Vishnu in the Ramayana?

    Oh perhaps thats just typical of Gaudiya Sampradaya.

    Vaishnavites will claim that Shiva is the greatest devotee of Vishnu. Shaivites will claim vice versa. Vaishnavites will claim Surya and Chandra as Vishnu and Shaivites will claim vice versa.

    Vaishnavites will claim Vishnu as all in all only God. Shavites will claim vice versa.

    It never ends.

  5. #5
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    Re: Shiva subordinate to Vishnu in the Ramayana?

    iskcon did not 'become' like that . it was like that since begining .

    gaudiya vaishnava and iskcon are not exactly the same thing .

    gaudiyas identified themselves as hindus . they didnt really 'oppose' worship of other gods , although like any other vaishnava sect they did place krishna at the highest platform . they recogised brahminism by birth and also recognised the merits of a true seeker irrespective of whatever relgion or sect be belonged from .

    iskcon on the other hands segregates itself from mainstream hinduism , publicly opposes worship of other gods , has a complete disregard for brahmins by blood , no matter how qualified they may be .




    incidentaly i cant stop myself from saying this .....

    the saffron sadhu giving the class to the group , died an apaghaata mrityu ( death under horrible unnatural cirmcumstances -- not a good omen in hinduism) in a car crash . and he was also the chief accused of the prabhupada murder conspiracy case which hypothesizes that srila prabupada was mudered by slow poisoning in a quest for supremacy in iskcon . this is not proved though .

  6. #6

    Re: Shiva subordinate to Vishnu in the Ramayana?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avazjan View Post
    Namaste.

    Rather than answer you directly, I just want to point out both the futility of this argument and its total irrelevance. The whole "Shiva vs Vishnu" song and dance has been repeated ad nauseum for hundreds of years without resolution, and without doing anybody any good! It cannot be solved as it is not the result of rational self inquiry, nor is it a legitimate issue. It is simply a product of sectarian bias and egotism.

    Vishnu is not exalted by the inferiority of Shiva. Shiva is not exalted by the inferiority of Vishnu. God is most exalted when the concept of inferiority in general falls away, having no place in brahman. Obsessing about which god is superior is to entirely miss the point of both gods, who really are one.

    One can accurately state that Vishnu is the face of Shiva, and Shiva is the face of Vishnu. Or that they are one and the same, aspects of one another and brahman as perfect archetypes of Purusha/Saguna Brahman/Ishvara. Distinct, but not mutually exclusive. Ishvara shows his divine glory in a multitude of forms to benefit jivatman deluded by ahamkara. Sadhaka is not a path of exaltation, it is not a . This argumentation about the superiority of gods is really just displaced egotism. The sadhaka invests his ego into the god, and champions the god as a subtle form of championing his own ego by association. It is just like how people associate and identify with sports teams.

    There is plenty of scriptural evidence on both sides of this artificial fence, some supporting Shiva as supreme, some Vishnu as supreme, in support not of the truth, but of the biases of the authors (and pernicious editors) as well as intended audiences.

    But in reality Vishnu and Shiva do not exist "as such." Both are comparatively recent conceptualizations of God. Before people get angry about this statement, please let me explain what is meant.

    Shiva isn't referred to until around 300-100 BCE. Vishnu appears in the vedas, but is a relatively minor god. We associate Shiva with the vedic Rudra, who is also a relatively minor god. Indra is more or less the centerpiece of vedic deities ... except there is Varuna, who is spiritually superior to Indra (although Indra is the temporal ruler). Varuna is the conceptual "progenitor" of the modern trimurti.

    Vishnu and Shiva are not in competition with eachother! They do not vie with one another for divine status! Such is POINTLESS. They are in perfect harmony, equality and oneness. Shiva is the greatest devotee of Vishnu. Shiva is one with Vishnu. Vishnu is the greatest devotee of Shiva. Vishnu is one with Shiva.

    It is simply that the pattern that older conceptualizations of God fall away, and the new ones are championed - often at expense of their direct forebears, as well as their contemporaries.

    I mean no disrespect AT ALL to Vishnu or Shiva, or worshipers of bhagavan in these blessed forms. The truth, the principles, the essence which Vishnu or Shiva represent are indisputable and fill me with adoration. I love the forms this Truth has taken in showing us the Trimurti. It is most excellent. However... it is still transient and ephemeral. The beauty of the trimurti is that it is simultaneously partite, representing specific sets of concepts and aspects, both gross and subtle as there are different varieties/levels even within one aspect (IE: braddha rudra, ishana rudra shiva, panchavaktra shiva, ardhanarishvara, etc. - partite/ascending forms of Shiva within a well known tantric sadhana) as well as one. Just like the word Aum, which is comprised of three letters unified in a single word.


    In hundreds of thousands of years, if humanity survives (which is in doubt, to be frank,) it is entirely likely that Vishnu and Shiva will be long forgotten, in so far as Vishnu and Shiva are mere words, composed of sounds which however excellent are not Parasabda, which is the essence of saguna brahman (which both Vishnu and Shiva exemplify most admirably.) Instead, sanatana dharma will have different names - if humanity even needs such terminology at that time, different aspects appropriate to the time and culture, representative of That which is beyond all such limited notions of locality and temporality.

    If we conceive of God in a certain aspect regarded as supreme, then it is this aspect which grants us direct experience of the supreme. However, this aspect must have the right attributes. It is not a good idea to come up new gods by oneself. the sages have done this throughout history for the benefit of humanity, clothing raw divinity into the right aspects for the time period and culture. It is therefore unsurprising that when a Shaivite experiences god realization from the lowest to the highest, it is through and as Shiva. And that when a Vishnaiva experiences the same realizations, it is through and as Vishnu. Both are true. Both are valid. Some sampradayas achieve these realizations through an ascending series of deities presided over by one's istha-devata. Ishvara is the source and culmination of all three aspects of the Trimurti, yet if we single out one - Vishnu or Shiva - as Bhagavan, this is ALSO correct, because they are not merely emissaries of Ishvara, but the entirety in of themselves.

    In conclusion, I recommend disregarding completely all claims about the supremacy of one or the other, and to think seriously about whether or not you want to listen to people who go on about it. They may well have great truths to share with you that you should be attentive to given the opportunity, but I submit to you that there are better teachers. Worship that which sings to your heart, not as receptacle of ego-identity, but as the antidote.

    Namaste.
    Namaste Avazjan,

    I agree with what you are saying. I do not want this to turn into another supremacy of Vishnu/Shiva debate, as they are all futile. I know that the Vishnu puranas say that Lord Vishnu is supreme and the Shiva puranas say that Lord Shiva is supreme, but the reason I am posting this here is because I want to know if what the speaker said actually ocurred in the Ramayana, which is not a Purana. Believe me, I agree with you. I personally believe Lord Krishna is the most complete form of God and most of my prayers are to Lord Krishna, but I have no problem at all praying the Lord Shiva and Lord Ganesha. I just simply want to know if what the ISKCON speaker said actually happened in the Ramayana, or if he was just making it up.

    Hare Krishna

  7. #7

    Re: Shiva subordinate to Vishnu in the Ramayana?

    Quote Originally Posted by sambya View Post
    incidentaly i cant stop myself from saying this .....

    the saffron sadhu giving the class to the group , died an apaghaata mrityu ( death under horrible unnatural cirmcumstances -- not a good omen in hinduism) in a car crash . and he was also the chief accused of the prabhupada murder conspiracy case which hypothesizes that srila prabupada was mudered by slow poisoning in a quest for supremacy in iskcon . this is not proved though .
    Namaste sambya,

    Can you tell me more or provide information about the concept of apaghaata mrityu? I tried looking it up but I couldn't find anything.

    Hare Krishna

  8. #8
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    Re: Shiva subordinate to Vishnu in the Ramayana?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramakrishna View Post
    Namaste,



    At about the 7:25 mark, the speaker says how the demon Ravana was one of the greatest devotees of Lord Shiva. Towards the end of the Ramayana, when Ravana's life was in danger, Lord Shiva was asked why he wouldn't save Ravana. His replied was that there was no use in trying to save Ravana, because when God wants to kill someone, not even he can protect him. This is what the speaker in the video says.

    Anyway, the whole point he was trying to make throughout the entire video was that Lord Shiva is subordinate to Lord Vishnu. I was not even aware that Lord Shiva was in the Ramayana, but of course I've never read it. Could it be said then that the Ramayana is mainly a Vaishnavite work since according to this video, Lord Shiva is subordinate to Lord Vishnu?

    Hare Krishna

    Namaste ramkrishna ji,

    There is some truth in the video for sure, indeed when sri ram or krishna or the primary form vishnu ji wants to punish someone, then others can't do anything. The answer to your question lies in Drona parva section 201 of mahabharata.

    In Mahabharata drona parva Section CCI, we see that lord krishna and arjuna are hit by brahmastra, but nothing happens to them, the striker of brahmastra, ashwathama becomes baffled why nothing happened to krisna and arjuna, even after being struck with such weapon as brahmastra, he then asks ved vyasa the very person who gave us mahabharata _:

    For what reason then could it not slay Kesava and Arjuna, both of whom are endued with the attributes of humanity? Asked by me, O holy one, answer me truly. O great Muni, I desire to hear all this in detail.'


    "Vyasa said, 'O highly significant is this matter that thou enquirest of me from surprise. I will tell thee everything; listen attentively. He that is called Narayana is older than the oldest ones. For accomplishing some purpose, that creator of the universe took his birth as the son of Dharma.

    Narayana performed strenuous Tapa when the Highest God of the world,
    the origin of the Universe and the parent of the worlds, visualized himself before Narayana. That God is Known as shiva, Sambhu, Hara or Rudra.
    He is smaller than Paramanu and greater than anything greatest. He is the cause of vitality in all the living things. Every thing or non-living originates from him. He can never be seen by ordinary people. He has engulfed the whole world. He is the limit of the Time. He has no birth, no death. He is invisible, unmanifest. He is the soul of the soul. When by those austerities, Narayana became like Brahma he then beheld the Master, Origin, and Guardian of the Universe, the Lord of all the gods, the Supreme Deity, who is exceedingly difficult of being gazed at, who is minuter than the minutest and larger than, the largest, who is called Rudra,

    "Vyasa continued, 'The blue-throated God, of inconceivable soul, that wielder of Pinaka, that divine Lord ever praised by the Rishis, then gave boons unto Vasudeva who deserved them all. The great God said,


    'O Narayana, through my grace, amongst men, gods, and Gandharvas, thou shalt be of immeasurable might and soul. Neither gods, nor Asuras, nor great Uragas, nor Pisachas, nor Gandharvas, nor men, nor Rakshasas, nor birds, nor Nagas, nor any creatures in the Universe, shall ever be able to bear thy prowess.

    @Dear Ramkrishna ji,

    so when lord shiva himself blessed vishnu ji, that no one can defeat him, then how ravana could have been saved ?? No one can win against lord vishnu.
    Last edited by isavasya; 24 June 2010 at 07:06 AM.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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