Jesus; God-realised or Avatar?

[Ao]

Actual Jesus story - do we know it ?

There are so many gaps in the present understanding of Jesus that it is throwing up many question

Whatever is known is through the bible and some gospel which came long after Jesus. The whole of that is being questioned by westerners and thus are several books and films on that.

So most of the assumptions might be speculations and influences from other cultures.

Actual life history might be different altogether.

Love and best wishes

This issue of historicity has actually been a hot-topic for about ten years now. Outside of the Gnostic/Early Christian gospels there is only one reference in all of Roman-era history to Jesus, and many scholars think that was a later insert (e.g. a forgery put into one of the Jewish historian Josphesus' texts). This is of course very embarrassing for Biblical defenders as surely a figure as revolutionary as the one presented in the gospels would have warranted official attention and hence left an official record.

There are many interesting debates on this topic for those interested at sites like:
www.jesusneverexisted.com

But I would be careful visiting a site like that as the issue tends to get people very angry. I prefer far more mellow forums like our fine HDF here.

[Sahasranama]

Thanks for the link, I will not investigate it though, because it's better to keep my mind on Hinduism which has nothing to do with Jeebus.

[jaggin]

Namaste All,

Personally I do not see fault in Jesus or His manifestation.

"I am the way" is understood as per one's view. Most christians cannot see beyond the physical body and hence they associate "I am the way" with the physical frame of the so-called physical man called Jesus and foolishly think that the way could be known only after birth of Jesus.

One may remind christians:

• Whether there was No way before Jesus appeared?
• If no one else knew or knows about the way, why then it was the wise men of East who declared Jesus's coming to the west? How did they know that Jesus was going to show a way?
• Why Jesus manifested among brutal animals who were not civilized and who murdered Jesus?
• Did not Jesus know that He would be sacrificed?

I think that the west needed Jesus. Further being dominantly rajasic, christians, in general, have not assimilated the key teachings but have taken up Jesus as a weapon against those who announced Jesus's coming to them.

This should not be done. Albeit Chritians do it also but the verse should be understood in context. jesus is answering this question:
John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way?
This also refers further back to Jesus stating that He will prepare a place for them and that they will be with Him. This is in reference to the New Jerusalem which will be the refuge of the righteous when God destroys the world with fire. However most pastors see a double entendre with a promise of Heaven. It appears to be a strtch to me but there is no doubt that the disciples did not go to the New Jerusalem in that lifetime.

I don't perceive the general lack of spirituality in Christians that you claim. The physical presence of Jesus is replaced by the spiritual presence of the Paraclete. I doubt that it is physicality that causes a misinterpretation of this passage but rather a desire for exclusivity. There are over 10,000 Christian denominations and most likely each one thinks it has the right answer. On the other hand the New Jerusalem and the Rapture to it are unique to Christians as far as I can tell.

Obviously, there was no way because Jesus had not even started to prepare the New Jerusalem so how could there have been a way to it before then?

The wise men only knew that there would be a king born and where he would be born.

The whole concept of the cross is that everyone is sinful enough to have put Jesus there. And then forgiveness is given for having done so. The leaders who were responsible are no different from any other religious leaders because they believed they were acting according to dharma.

Yes, He knew and previously had stated that He had come for that purpose.

[jaggin]

Ok, so... my whole family by religion is christian (catholic).

My mom is secular, spiritual, but not that religious. My older sister, well she just had her daughter baptized at her boyfriend's christian sect church - lutheran. By commendments she actually sins. But who am I to judge? I have always seen life in different light than her.
My younger sister was baptized along with my step-dad, cause someone told him that you need to baptized kids as fast as you can or demons will curse or something. She was baptized in orthodox church. She believes in God, but is really secular... (BTW in my opinion it's impossible to be half-sisters or something if mother is same, because mother is only one we have and so on... it's highly offensive to me, if someone says other way...)

Most of christians I know are not really that christians, who actually follow commandments or know about bible...

I DON'T like the idea of Jesus being God, Avatar, God-realised or anything like that.

And so I would be non-native western hindu, who doesn't want to think about Jesus or what he teached. He didn't teach anything original. Did he?

But in the end Christianity is really hypocrite religion... What about hating pagans, but celebrating pagan holidays? (Yep, I don't like Christmas or Easter anymore...). If Jesus existed, than he was just ordinary guy... Maybe he was misunderstood or maybe crazy, but his teachings were not effective. I know christians who are great people, but they don't really know their religion and would be good people even without Christianity. Sorry!

I must sound like I'm very bad person, or something... Sorry. Also I would like to say, that I will teach my children in the way, that trying to convert them would be almost impossible. I love Sanathana Dharma and I will want my children to have strong faith in this religion and way of life than something like Christianity.


BTW I'm not off topic. it's all connected... Christianity would never be like this, if Jesus really would be God-realised, Avatar or Saint or anything like that.

Sorry to everyone who disagrees, this is just my opinion...

Have a nice day,
~Alice...

There is no need to apologize. Opinions are usually held on the basis of knowledge and understanding. With better knowledge and undestanding an opinion can change.

I would be interested in hearing how you think that could happen. Perhaps you walk through a scenario of how it might happen.

This looks suspiciously like a superstition. A baptism is a one time event. It isn't as though water could put a protective spiritual coating on the person to protect from demons. My thinking is that prayer should do the trick.

The question is not whether you like it but whether it is true. I don't like to think there are demons but I have had enough experience to convince me otherwise.

Yes, He did.

Christianity does not teach the celebration of Pagan holidays. If you are claiming that the celebration of the birth of Jesus and the death of Jesus on the cross and the resurrection of Jesus are Pagan provide proof.

The question is whether you have a desire to see things get better or are celebrting the sinfulness. If it is the latter, you need a change of heart.

[jaggin]

I believe that David Koresh also claimed to be the "messiah" as well. Didn't make it true. Stupidity really should hurt...

Many have, but only one has fulfilled the prophecies and that is Jesus.

[BryonMorrigan]

Christianity does not teach the celebration of Pagan holidays. If you are claiming that the celebration of the birth of Jesus and the death of Jesus on the cross and the resurrection of Jesus are Pagan provide proof.

The holiday known as "Christmas" is completely...100%...undoubtedly...PAGAN. The date comes from the celebration known as the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, or the "Holy Day of the Unconquered Son." This occurred on December 25th, and was celebrated in honor of the deity known as Mithras, the worship of which came from the East, and is associated with both Persian and Vedic deities. No reputable scholar, Christian or otherwise, actually believes that "Jesus" was born on December 25th. It's laughable.

If you would like to learn more about Mithras, and the large number of similarities between his worship and later Christianity, here is a paper, written by the Christian minister Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., on this very subject: (LINK)

Furthermore, many of the traditions of Christmas were directly copied from other Pagan traditions, and a later Christian "reasoning" attributed to them. For example:

1. Christmas Trees - Originated with Germanic Paganism. They would bring in evergreens during the winter times to remind them of the strength of these trees, who were impervious to the cold winter. Roman Pagans also pinned garlands of evergreen inside their houses during winter for much the same reasons.

2. Gift-giving - Originated in the Roman Pagan holiday of Saturnalia, which ran for a week in late December, ending on the 23rd. It was far too popular of a tradition to end, so when the Roman Emperors (Post Constantine I) forced Christianity on the populace (under penalty of decapitation, I might add...how lovely!) they merely made up a new "reason" for the tradition.

(Note: Interestingly enough, followers of Mithras were described as wearing some kind of Tilak on their foreheads, but there is no description of what it looked like, or of what it was composed from.)

Many have, but only one has fulfilled the prophecies and that is Jesus.

You don't read history much, do you? Besides, as I've pointed out many times on this very forum, there is no concrete evidence that your Jesus ever existed, much less that he did any of the supernatural things your book claims he did, or the fulfillment of any "prophecies." We're just supposed to take your word...or actually, the words of the books that Emperor Constantine I felt were the most "valid" Christian texts.

I swear...Christians are pretty much the only religion in the world where the actual practitioners of the religion are less knowledgeable about its practice, history and doctrine than outsiders! Here's an interesting article that mentions a recent poll, the findings of which point out that very issue: (LINK)

Go be a Christian if that makes you happy. But don't tell me about "prophecies" and other nonsense in an attempt to "prove" your Exclusivist wickedness is "true." Further attempts at proselytism on this board will be met with even more historical references, scorn, and ridicule.

[atanu]

This should not be done. Albeit Chritians do it also but the verse should be understood in context. jesus is answering this question:
John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way?
This also refers further back to Jesus stating that He will prepare a place for them and that they will be with Him. This is in reference to the New Jerusalem which will be the refuge of the righteous when God destroys the world with fire. However most pastors see a double entendre with a promise of Heaven. It appears to be a strtch to me but there is no doubt that the disciples did not go to the New Jerusalem in that lifetime.

I don't perceive the general lack of spirituality in Christians that you claim. The physical presence of Jesus is replaced by the spiritual presence of the Paraclete. I doubt that it is physicality that causes a misinterpretation of this passage but rather a desire for exclusivity. There are over 10,000 Christian denominations and most likely each one thinks it has the right answer. On the other hand the New Jerusalem and the Rapture to it are unique to Christians as far as I can tell.

Obviously, there was no way because Jesus had not even started to prepare the New Jerusalem so how could there have been a way to it before then?

The wise men only knew that there would be a king born and where he would be born.

The whole concept of the cross is that everyone is sinful enough to have put Jesus there. And then forgiveness is given for having done so. The leaders who were responsible are no different from any other religious leaders because they believed they were acting according to dharma.

Yes, He knew and previously had stated that He had come for that purpose.

Namaste jaggin

Thank you for your reply and i now understand the 'way' better. I understand jerusalem as a place of eternal unbroken joy and not as a physical place. In our Vedas also the word meanings are at three levels: physical, mental, and spiritual. I am only talking of the spiritual.

1. With this background I, from the perspective of our teachers, say that anything new is not eternal and thus has to pass -- all things must pass, New Jerusalem including. We are taught that the way is without beginning. Only some methods change at surface in different yugas.I see in other replies you saying "Opinions are usually held on the basis of knowledge and understanding. With better knowledge and undestanding an opinion can change". I agree fully. Our scriptures teach: a man is as is his knowledge. With that background, I say that NEW will inevitably become OLD and PASS AWAY.

2. The question is how the wise men knew, whatever they knew, which the people of Jesus's birthpalce did not? My point is that the arrogance of some people "We know the new way" is again hoisting the truth on a cross.

One who clings fast to Eternal Truth

Will attain Ultimate Truth Itself.

The strength of Rta, Eternal Order, is far reaching

It brings wisdom to those that pursue it.

Earth and Heaven owe their existence to Rta.

And the Supreme Powers yield their ambrosial milk,

their treasured contents,

In perfect obedience to the Lord of Eternal Existence.

(Rg Veda.IV.23.1):

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

[charlebs]

I believe that David Koresh also claimed to be the "messiah" as well. Didn't make it true. Stupidity really should hurt...

didn´t koresh prove the earth was hollow? just like people nowadays say it´s proven solid, while no one can explain details of how they know this.
everyone I talk to has his facts from hearsay, while all I know, there might be a microcosmos inside earth or degenerated mass or whatever.
hehe even buddhists believe their king is inside earth, and that the dalai llama is his representative.

even more dubious is that there are no pictures of the poles, nasa and google both filtered it from their software, claiming they don´t take pictures of boring areas
it´s also supposedly a no fly zone, and I can´t find anyone debunking this

[Adhvagat]

didn´t koresh prove the earth was hollow? just like people nowadays say it´s proven solid, while no one can explain details of how they know this.
everyone I talk to has his facts from hearsay, while all I know, there might be a microcosmos inside earth or degenerated mass or whatever.
hehe even buddhists believe their king is inside earth, and that the dalai llama is his representative.

even more dubious is that there are no pictures of the poles, nasa and google both filtered it from their software, claiming they don´t take pictures of boring areas
it´s also supposedly a no fly zone, and I can´t find anyone debunking this

Charlebs...

This thread was the reason I joined this forum:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=626

[sanjaya]

Maybe I missed something, but how did we get into this debate on whether the earth is hollow?