New Member
Jesus definitely described Himself as an incarnation of God. He has the Word of God in His mouth, miracles and prophecy fulfilled to back up His claim. And foremost He has the resurrection of Himself which appears to be unique since all other resurrections are of other people.Originally Posted by Paris-Izi
etad vai tat
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté
I do not see from your eyes so I cannot comment on what have said. I do not feel demonized or threatened at all. My faith/beliefs (śraddha) and intent is not diminished by another's POV or religion. How are you feeling this so I can understand your POV?
I wrote
If I do, I take on their sins - so say the wise.I cannot fault them even if they fault me.
There's no doubt differences in the world's religions. Yet in the end, it is how people comprehend and act on their religion that is at issue ( as I see it). Then we have a whole different conversation at hand.
praṇām
Last edited by yajvan; 12 June 2010 at 07:36 PM.
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
Member
Namaste dear Kumar_Das
Does not exclusivity see exclusivity? For the inclusive there is only "All is Shiva".
One can take side of Day thinking that Night is cruel who kills Day. Another can take side of Night believing that Day is cruel who kills Night. Another, who is intent on Moksha will see Time alone incarnating as Day and Night.
To me, the main question is the aim and the purpose of this existence. Whether one wishes to incarnate and take up and switch sides every birth or whether one wants moksha? Because warring exclusive groups have been eternal and will be so whether one bemoans it or not.
But, friend, the above is my view alone. I do not have any problem with your view also.
By the way, mleccha does not mean anything evil. mleccha indicates one who is ignorant of Sanskrit. I am a mleccha by this understanding.
Regards
Om Namah Shivaya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Vedic Seeker
Wise words, indeed.
One thing I'm seeing here is a direct association of Jesus with his fundamentalist followers, who actually only make up a minority of Christianity. The condemnation I'm seeing of Jesus and Christianity here is likely identical to a condemnation of Hinduism that some Christians are partaking in on a forum of their own. In their minds, we're serving Satan and his demons. I was never a huge fan of parochialism.
I see them as worshiping God in another way, with Jesus as their Ishtadeva. I consider Jesus to be an avatar.
Namaste First, thank you everyone for the large response to this question. If I may suggest that for a moment we disregard the importance of whether in actual fact Jesus existed or not, for the purpose of inquiry (i.e. let us assume that the Bible is indeed factual). Then assuming this, what image does the Bible actually conjure of Jesus? A relevant question I feel, is if there is anywhere in the Bible where Jesus himself states that the only way to God is through him. Is Jesus written as having said this? I believe that if Jesus is God-realized, then he would not say that the only way to God is through him, although he may say that one way to God is through him.
Vedic Seeker
John 14:6-7 (NJB):
"I am the Way; I am Truth and Life.
No one can come to the Father except through me.
If you know me, you will know my Father too.
From this moment you know him and have seen him."
It should be remembered that there are four different accounts in the canonical New Testament of Jesus's life and teachings, each painting a different picture of him. Three of them paint roughly the same picture (Matthew, Mark, and Luke: the so-called "synoptic gospels"), with the fourth, the Gospel of John, painting a more metaphysical and mystical picture of Jesus. (I've heard that John's gospel was almost not included in the canon.)
Not to mention, there's all the non-canonical gospels and accounts.
Taken together, all the gospels contradict each other on several details.
It should also be remembered that the gospels were written decades after Jesus's supposed death, which doesn't do well for the writers' memories. It's pretty much certain that there are several details that aren't 100% accurate to what Jesus taught. It's possible that Jesus said something to the effect of: "I am showing the way to the Father," and "John" (the names associated with the gospels were added later; the actual writers were anonymous) remembered it as, "No one comes to the Father except through me."
Now, John's Gospel is primarily the one that paints Jesus as an avatar; it's the only one as far as I know where Jesus actually claims equality with God.
John 10:30:
"The Father and I are one."
However, the other gospels paint Jesus more as God-realized:
Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19:
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."
Banned
jesus was a charlatan par excellence. his visit to India during the ages of 12 and 29 is deliberately hidden by these christians...
he learnt yoga under the Hindu/Buddhist gurus and even travelled up to Puri Jagannath in Orissa.
Of course, a lot of people say he never existed. Perhaps that is true. If he did exist, however, he certainly learnt philosophy in India. Of that, there is no doubt.
It's funny how some of our members conveniently don't mention that.
And, the proof that he was no saint is that he didn't foresee the chaos, murder, and confusion his followers would commit in his name. No person who is the cause of such destruction can ever be termed a "saint". No Hindu saint was the reason for pogroms in the name of religion like christianity and islam are. That is most certainly why christians and muslims are subhuman asuras.
Last edited by TatTvamAsi; 13 June 2010 at 01:21 PM.
Banned
Namaste Yajvan,
With due respect, you have never been at the receiving end of these asuras' conversion tactics or denigrations. Thus, you are not qualified to make such statements. I know you say "you" do not feel demonized, but that is because you are a westerner. You are not an Indian in India being tricked, coerced, and attacked by these scum.
Using our Hindu philosophy to give credence to these vermin is dangerous for us Indians/Hindus. Yes, their nonsensical belief in a charlatan corpse and/or a pedophile murderer (muhammad) has no bearing on our philosophy. However, when they use force and/or subterfuge to undermine our way of life, we have every right to be assertive and retaliate to protect ourselves.
christianity, islam, and judaism have been at the forefront of destruction, mayhem, genocide for the past 3000+ years. There is not a SINGLE IOTA of true philosophy in their "religions" that is of benefit to anyone, let alone Hindus. If any such "pearls of wisdom" can be found in them, they are found in Hindu philosophy which predates them by thousands of years. Thus, these abrahamic faiths are absolutely useless and are quite dangerous to the peace and stability of the world at large.
The onset of these abrahamic cults in India has seen nothing but conflict with us Hindus. Despite their trickery, violence, both physically and culturally, Hinduism is the beacon of spirituality and thus shines iridescently. Why? Because it is the TRUTH. It is Sanatana Dharma.
If you read a little history about India, you will understand what terrible calamities have befallen Hindus at the hands of these christians & muslims, and now, jewish "authors" who claim to be experts on Hinduism who attack us with the pen.
When Portugal took over present-day Goa, they destroyed EVERY TEMPLE there. Demolished to smithereens and built churches on top of them. Every Brahmin priest was hanged on the beaches. Goa is almost entirely christian now. Do you know what Goa is popular for now? Tourism - a euphemism for foreigners to indulge in drugs, prostitution, and pedophilia. Hindu temples are routinely vandalized there (some where rebuilt after the portugese bastards were kicked out by the Indian Army).
With islam, I don't even need to describe the damage they have caused world over; especially in India.
As Hindus, we must maintain the fact that jesus, if he ever existed, if of ZERO IMPORTANCE and is as significant as a housefly. If you think otherwise, you are opening the door for conversions and other forms of violence. Thinking that he was an important figure and was a saint is the opening these vermin need to begin converting Hindus who are less fortunate in run-of-the-mill education and wealth. And, jesus learnt from Hindus/Buddhists in India! That is all anyone needs to know about him.
Sathya Sai Baba doesn't claim he came up with his ideas on his own; he is a Hindu. He recognizes the roots. jesus learnt under the Hindus and then pondered them off as his own thoughts. That is the hallmark of a fraud. And people, Hindus themselves I should add, don't question that and instead denigrate saints like Sai Baba. LOL! The irony!
christianity = islam = judaism = absolute garbage.
Any philosophy that says, "I (believer) am saved while others are doomed" is unadulterated trash.
That is proof.
Namaskar.
etad vai tat
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast TTA,
you offer the following:
Can you point me to some authorative śāstra-s that offers this ? I do not disagree, yet I have not seen any credible information on this matter.his visit to India during the ages of 12 and 29 is deliberately hidden by these christians...
You mention the following
This is a matter of perspective and scale as I see it:No person who is the cause of such destruction can ever be termed a "saint".
The son of dharma (yudhiṣṭhira) orchestrated a war that brought death to millions in 18 days:
Many bad things occur on this earth , sometimes they are promulgated by right action and what must be done, sometimes
- the pāṇḍva army lost 7 akśauhini-s
- the kaurava army lost 11 akśauhini-s
- Total 18 akśauhini-s lost ; total kṣatriya deaths at ~ 3.54 million in 18 days
not. I am in hopes your view is the times when it is done for all the wrong reasons and little good comes from it.
Another view I have ( my personal perspective only ) :
Perhaps 'no person' can cause such destruction and be considered a saint , yet Śivabhaṭṭāraka not only destroys but anniolates this entire creation into Himself and many of us bow at His feet. We (I) take no issue with His ability for devistation And He is is the home of all saintly pursuits.
praṇām
words
- 1 akśauhini = 21,870 chariots ; 21,870 elephants; 65,610 horse-mounted warriors and 109,350 infantry, as per the mahābhārata;
- the udyoga parvan calls out the number of akśauhini for each army. This word udyoga means the act of undertaking anything , exertion , perseverance , strenuous and continuous endeavour
- Śiva-bhaṭṭāraka - bhaṭṭāra - the great lord , venerable or worshipful; bhaṭभट्- nourish , maintain
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
Member
namaste everyone.
There is a proverb in Tamil that says "one leg in the river water and one on the shore". I can understand that traces of the influence of Jesus and Christianity still linger in the minds of the Western Hindus here, especially when they are yet to understand the dimensions and practices of Hinduism. So more often than not, they take us into a discussion on Jesus and his teachings, which are at best redundant and inadequate for us Hindus.
My personal take is that Jesus Christ has no historical existence, and that the Bible has no message that is worthwhile for Hindus.
• I am surprised that Yajvan puts the blame of the MahAbhArata war on YudhiShthira by saying that he "orchestrated a war that brought death to millions in 18 days", ignoring the fact that the war was fought at the behest of shrI KRShNa.
YudhiShthira is identified as the son of Yama DharmarAjA in the MahAbhArata, but it was the avatar of KRShNa that was responsible for the restoration of dharma by the MahAbhArata war. YudhiShthira, if at all, was only used as a tool, being the eldest of the PANDavas.
• Even if for argument sake, YudhiShthira "orchestrated" the War, he never professed himself to be a saint or an avatar unlike Jesus, so there is no comparison here.
• There is no teaching in Hinduism that reviles other faiths, whereas it is the teachings of Jesus in the Bible that are responsible for the Christian aggression and crusades, so Jesus is responsible for the adharma that mankind had and still has to suffer in the name of Christianity.
• Unless and until the doctrines of Christianity and Islam are revised to repudiate conversion and openly declare their intention of peaceful co-existence with Hinduism and other religions, and then demonstrate it in practice, Hindus should denounce the teachings of exclusivity in these religions and weigh it against anything good in their scriptures. If they don't do it, but instead succumb to their professed monotheism by diluting traditional Hinduism, Hindus and Hinduism will be in great danger, as MahaHrada rightly points out.
• The concept of monotheism in Christianity amounts to nothing, as most Christians consider only Jesus to be God, elevating him above the status of a son. Further, when there is a son to God, who is also God, and still stays as such in the Heavens after his ascension, how can there be monotheism and a single God? And then there is the Holy Ghost!
• As a religion, I find Christianity to have no self-respect, when in the name of 'inculturation' they seek to absorb the 'pagan' ways of worship, when Jesus in Bible sought for their elimination. Their only aim is, as Satay would rightly put it, market the brand name of Jesus by hook and by crook. Some links:
Atma Jyoti Ashram: Wolf in sheep's clothing
http://hvk.org/articles/0709/16.html
Atma Jyoti Ashram: Christian Priests Uncloaked!
http://hamsa.org/ashram.htm
Atma Jyoti Ashram: Sannyasins or Swindlers?
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HkPag...ID=8810&SKIN=C
• Kumar_Das seems to think that St.Thomas visited India. I suggest that he take a look at this Website that disproves it: http://hamsa.org/ You can also find a book citing evidences against the historical existence of Jesus: http://hamsa.org/artifice-intro.htm
*****
I would request our Western Hindus to read deeper into the teachings, concepts and philosophy of Hinduism and decide for themselves if they are relevant to them vis-a-vis the teachings of Jesus in the Bible, instead of wasting our time here in fruitless discussions of comparison. There is no point in becoming a Hindu if you people are not convinced about the need to let go your earlier Christian affiliations. As for our native Hindus who seek to raise the issue, there is no need at all to go into the teachings of Abrahamic religions to learn about anything which is not in Hinduism.
Last edited by saidevo; 13 June 2010 at 11:16 PM.
रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥
To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.
--viShNu purANam
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