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Thread: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

  1. #51

    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Namaste,

    I was always opposed to premarital sex because of the four ashramas. I believe sex is for the grihastha ashrama, when one starts and raises a family. It is then that artha and kama are necessary. But one should not engage in sex during the brahmacharya ashrama, as that stage is for learning and attaining spiritual and practical knowledge, and not for kama.

    Jai Sri Krishna

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    There is no question that meat eating, animal sacrifice, intoxication and sex were part of the vaidik, pauranik and tantrik dharma.
    Which Veda or vaidic literature talks of using sex for religious aspirations ? I hope you are not reading contaminated translations by the Westerners ... otherwise some perverted Westereners think that Aswamedha Horse was killed after the Yagna and before that the queen had sex with the horse !

    Meat eating and animal sacrifice too are not considered vaidic today and it is a great controversy if it was vaidic even in ancient times. Acharya Chatursen who has done a lot of research on ancient Indian practices say that these were Raksha sanskriti adopted mostly by the tribals & not Aaryan. Let's remember that Hindus discarded the Rakhsa sanskriti.

    Do you know any vaidic literature which encourages use of "drugs" as MahaHrada is claiming ? I have not seen it. The Vedas do talk of Soma but it is still a mystery if it was some real intoxicating herb or anything symbolic because there is no herb named as Soma found anywhere. If it was really a herb and so much valuable then why was it allowed to disappear ? Why was it not preserved like Tulsi or Pipal ?

    Nepal is preserving a tradition that once was popular and widespread all over India
    Nothing can be farther from the Truth ! You have no idea of Indian History but you are making claims like an expert. Moreover, Nepal is a tiny Hindu state and anything going there cannot be a representative of whole of Hinduism. The people living in hills normally have tribal mentality but that doesn't apply to whole of Hinduism.

    Some time back, the King of Nepal wanted to do animal sacrifice in one of the temples in India and he was stopped by the animal lovers.

    due to the hate of the muslim and british rulers for what they considered "barbaric and immoral" practices a more sanitized version of Hinduism , vedanta and smarta closer to the likes of the foreign rulers was sponsered while other agamic and tantric darshanas were violently supressed and outlawed.
    "NO" in capital letters. It was not due to influence of Muslim and British rulers. The Hindus were bold enough to recognise an evil as evil & not be proud of it. The Hindus couldn't be proud of all evil prctices which the society was once ridden with. Sati system, child marriage along with vaamaachaar were rooted out from Hindu society by our own reformers. Clinging to a tradition blindly is not Hindu way .... Hindus have a trdition of throwing the evil practices into gutter for ever.

    Vaamaachaar which encouraged use of sex and alcohol for religious purposes is considered an evil by today's Hindus. It is a matter of shame to be associated with such practices.

    Thats why some traditions only exist in smaller pocket and are less popular nowadays, probably if India gets rid of colonial western thought this can hopefully change. Instead of being proud of their heritage many Hindus are still ashamend if some aspect of Hinduism is considered "immoral" "polytheistic" "idolatry" or "barbaric" from the viewpoint of the monotheistic religions.
    As I told you, Hindus don't accept any book or a relgious figure's word as law unless it passes through other pramaanaa successfully. That is why Hindus are progressive and have no unwanted baggage of evil traditions with them today.

    That you want to see innocent Sadhus, nepali Hindus or kashmir pandits, or bengal tantrics and others go to jail for the offence of offering wine, meat and pashu bali to the devi and for following difffernt custom and darshana than what you prefer does not astonish me, it fits you well. That you even speak of lynching innocents is just great, thanks for openly showing your love.
    Forget about what I want or I don't want. Trying having sex ritiuals for religious purpose in India & see what happens if the news breaks out. You should consider yourself lucky if you survive like Swami Nityananda. Or if that appears so dangerous, you may try distributing free alcohol in India in the name of prasaadam & see society's reaction.


    Dear Scott,

    As you can see, some Guinness (which isn't even vegetarian) has been placed in front of Him as an offering. During the puja, I was very surprised to the see the priest light a beedi (a type of Indian cigarette) and place it in Sanggili Karuppan's mouth!
    You too are thinking like MH ! Such practices are despised by most of the Hindus. No good Hindu worth his name would like to associate himself with such practices. Why only this ? Some Tantriks make people believe that by making human sacrifices they would get enormous hidden wealth .... & sometimes it leads to homcide and people engaged in such practices end up in Jail. There is no respected Hindu scripture which talks of such practices and there is no respected Hindu saint who approves of such practices. As I have indicated above, India carried Raksha Sanskriti too in ancient times and these traditions have been carried over from there but most of the Hindus in India hate such practices.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 19 June 2010 at 09:39 PM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Which Veda or vaidic literature talks of using sex for religious aspirations ? I hope you are not reading contaminated translations by the Westerners ... otherwise some perverted Westereners think that Aswamedha Horse was killed after the Yagna and before that the queen had sex with the horse !

    Meat eating and animal sacrifice too are not considered vaidic today and it is a great controversy if it was vaidic even in ancient times. Acharya Chatursen who has done a lot of research on ancient Indian practices say that these were Raksha sanskriti adopted mostly by the tribals & not Aaryan. Let's remember that Hindus discarded the Rakhsa sanskriti.

    Do you know any vaidic literature which encourages use of "drugs" as MahaHrada is claiming ? I have not seen it. The Vedas do talk of Soma but it is still a mystery if it was some real intoxicating herb or anything symbolic because there is no herb named as Soma found anywhere. If it was really a herb and so much valuable then why was it allowed to disappear ? Why was it not preserved like Tulsi or Pipal ?
    I don't mean to say that meat, alcohol and sex were present individually in every single shastra. But if you look at the shastras as a whole, at the vedas, puranas and the tantras, there is definitely evidence showing that animal sacrifice, meat eating, intoxication and sex were part of the daily life of everyday people and even the rishis and that there were rituals involving these.

    About the ashvamedha yajna, this is not a western interpretation. This interpretation was available in India and was also used by respected scholars like Uvata and Mahidhara. People only started objecting to such translation when the English translation became more wide spread and the general public could read them.

    I can't say whether the interpretation about the ashvamedha yajna are correct, but they wouldn't bother me, because of the fact that Sri Rama banned Sita to the forrest before he conducted the ashvamedha yajna and Sita was not present at the yajna. How other rajas conducted the ashvamedha yajna really doesn't concern me, it's not something that's important in this age.

    The puranas mention animal sacrifice, even the most respected vaishnava puranas like the bhagavatam. Budha's avatar was to reject the vedas and stop the animal sacrifice which would have been mostly unnecessary if he could just rewrite a commentary on the vedas.

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post

    Use of wine for worshipping goddess Kaali ... I have not seen wine being freely distributed for consumption for the devotees as Prasaadam in Kaali Puja. In our homes too we worship Kaali but we never offer alcohol to mother goddess. I have not been in Bengal during Puja but I have stayed and lived in Assam for a long time & I have not seen people offering wine to mother goddess and then distributing it freely. It might be symbolic though in some places. Nowhere in North India or in South India one can see use of Alcohol during Puja except in some less popular Bhairava temple in the western part of India ... but that is a rare example.
    yes devotee . true . wine is indeed not freely dristributed to public after puja as prasadam . it is used ceremonially . now some members of household might consume the thing after puja , instead of just throwing it away , but that's a different story . that is not exactly like taking prasada .

    but offering of suraa or kaaran remains a must here on major kali pujas , not the regular daily pujas though . im not sure about assam since i have not been there , but generally the assam and bengal shaktism follows the same patterns of worship . but still i cant say .......


    The animal sacrifice was prevalent in Shakti Puja but slowly it is also being replaced with sacrifices of some fruits or offering the animals without being killed. The reality is that great saints of these paths have not favoured indulging in such acts ... like killing of innocent animal or use of wine or sex (which is a clear no-no). For those who are new to Hinduism, let me tell them that the tantrik practice that MahaHrada mentions has very few followers today ... very few Hindus would like to associate with such practices ... may be MahaHrada is a rare one of those who practises it. But it is more of an exception & not a rule.
    yes , animal sacrifice is steadily declining . even 100 years back durga puja in bengal was a bloody event . a shakta mahapuja cannot go without balidaan . animal sacrifices were the norm for most aristrocrat durga pujas . however today most families have done away with the practice with one pretext or the other . some other families cannot simply stop the age old customs(in some places it is 400 years old) for fear of god's wrath !

    keeping in accordance with the new mindset of people the pandits now give a usefull advice . they advocate new families wishing to start a shakta puja to go without balidaan . but for one who have been continuing his ancestral pujas they advocate not to stop balidaan . this veiw comes from the idea of respecting ones own kula-aachaar( the customs of the ancestors) .


    back during the time of sri ramakrishna paramahamsa , society was more orthodox . on important puja days in dakshineshwar temple a bali had to be offered in accordance with popular practice . to this ramakrishna never objected . but , he also did not support it . after the puja , when the time of balidaan came he slowly retreated back to his own room , silent and grave . he never took any of the meats of the bali as prasad . but in respect to the age old customs he bowed down before it .

    presently animal sacrifce has been long stopped in dakshineshwar keeping in mind the ideals of ramkrishna and vivekananda .


    personally i feel ( based on whatever little i have studied ) that use of alcohol and sacrifices was always there in india . but it was not spread over the entire landmass . some areas indulged in these things more than the others . some races also practiced them more than others .
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    I don't mean to say that meat, alcohol and sex were present individually in every single shastra. But if you look at the shastras as a whole, at the vedas, puranas and the tantras, there is definitely evidence showing that animal sacrifice, meat eating, intoxication and sex were part of the daily life of everyday people and even the rishis and that there were rituals involving these.
    Why don't you quote the so-called sastras ?

    About the ashvamedha yajna, this is not a western interpretation. This interpretation was available in India and was also used by respected scholars like Uvata and Mahidhara. People only started objecting to such translation when the English translation became more wide spread and the general public could read them.
    That shows your shallow knowledge. Best of luck !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    about ashwamedha , i have always held the view that it was indeed sacrifice . in our school days we had simplified ramayana and mahabharata in vernacular language . there too i have read that the horse was sacrificed at the end after it returned conquering all the lands .

    however now i hear that it was not sacrificed , i am ever more curious to know the exact facts .

    dont begin by saying that they came back to life after the yajna got over through the occult powers of yogis who revived them --- a common explantion provided by iskcon !!!!

    does anyone here have the texts of ashwamedha yajna and its translations ? i personally know very basic sanskrit , but i know reputed sanskrit scholars personally and can get the texts examined by them . perhaps yajvan ji can also help .


    in poet jayadevas geetagovindam he bows to bhagavan buddha by saying--


    nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha s'ruti-i-jâtam
    Decrying slaughter according the rules of Vedic sacrifice,
    sadaya-hridaya dars'ita-pas'u-ghâtam
    You are compassionate of heart with the poor animals.
    kes'ava dhrita-buddha-s'arîra
    O Kes'ava in the form of Buddha! Hail Hari! Lord of the universe.

    jaya jagadîs'a hare, jaya jagadîs'a hare, jaya jagadîs'a hare




    that also seems to suggest that animal sacrifice indeed was present in vedic age . jayadeva lived about a 1000 years ago .
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    It is quite disgusting to go through this thread and see the amount of false and fake knowledge that is being spread and exaggerated generalization which is being done. Every other moron is coming with a stupid link of a obsolete ritual to convince others that his perverted and licentious fantasy is common phenomenon in india.

    I will like to talk about , Alcohol,drug, sex once again, in context of Indian society and veda dharm.


    Alcohol and meat - Veda dharm which is shruti and apaurusheya has no mention of any ritual which involves Alcohol. It is definitely tantric texts and perverted tantrics who use alcohal in their rituals. 90% Hindus in India wouldn't even have ever heard about any ritual involving alcohol. I am not saying alcohol is not consumed in Indian society, but that is by those who wish to do it, it has no sanction of vedas. Now like a puppet of westerners don't say Soma drink was alcohol, soma was a energy drink (fools no body drinks alcohol before going on war with asuras, so soma is not equal to alcohol. That's all). As far as meat is concerned vedas dont preach for or against meat eating, but other texts do, well meat is considered tamsic food, so if one wants to live brahmanical life style he should avoid it, though it is not prohibited for others. But you will have to pay the consequences of killing the animals, that is sure. At the same time meat being used in dharmic rituals is only confined till few sects.

    Drugs - Amazing to see few people even brought drugs in Hindu society. Well first of all Indian people don't have enough money to indulge in drugs, second drugs is only limited to selected elite class and their too it's not common. Many efforts were made by to infuse drugs in Indian society, but all of them failed.

    Sex - Again sex is a part of one's grihsta jeevan, one can have wild sex with one's husband/wife all day long, there is no prohibition on that, but there is no mention of sex in dharmic rituals in vedas (I don't care about man-made scriptures). Nor is there mention of any sex outside marriage, people who support it are monsters. They have lost their minds.



    Though I have a great respect for real westerners adopting Sanatan dharm like eastern mind ji, yajvan ji, nayasurya ji, I will once again say, I don't have one bit of respect for Indians who leave India , go to west, and then start spreading things what they like. It is very clear that false information is coming from Indians who are living in west, these westernised Indians see dharm as objects of their own desires. I will once again say, scriptures can't be understood by reading a few quotes, you need experience, see life , move in differnt parts of India and then understand them.



    As for BUDDHA- Buddha himself was a meat eater, now who has spread that buddha was not a meat eater ? He died by eating stale pork. It is communist rascals who are coming up with cooked up stories to preach Hindus that Buddhism and janism brought concept of vegetarianism In india. Also Buddha was no avataar of Visnu,If vaishnava purans are to be taken authentic then even adi shankara too is to be taken as a demon. It was only to assimilate buddhists that scriptures were interpolated to prove buddha was a avataar, but there is no truth about that. Even buddhists and jains have tried to assimilate Hindu deities in their scriptures.
    Last edited by isavasya; 19 June 2010 at 11:33 PM.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Why don't you quote the so-called sastras ?
    Why should I, you can look them up yourself. If you want to ignore them that's your choice. It's common for modern Hindus to disregard any sexual symbolism and animal sacrifice in the scriptures as later addition only on the basis that it's imprudish and couldn't possibly be part of the ancient text. Actually the reverse is true, later scholars have tried to clear up a lot of the "shameful subjects" in the scriptures.

    That shows your shallow knowledge. Best of luck !

    OM
    You said the twisted mind of western scholars made these translations up, but they were found in the Indian commentaries of Mahidhara and Uvata before the vedas were translated to English. So it's either a valid interpretation or a twisted fabrication of the Indian mind. But it's not a fabrication of the western mind.

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam all: This reminds me of my aunts' use of one line of biblical scripture to excuse her hidden imbibing. Funny thing was, because if her, I actually had one line of the Bible memorized at one time Timothy 6: 23 I think. Drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake. Something like that. Yet I heard the Lord's Prayer every day at school for 7 odd years, but never got past Our father Who Art...


    Namaste

    I like your posts despite all other things. Instinct is usually before dawn of Saraswati (the word). Thus to a large extent, being a man means being a rationaliser -- at least till Saraswati arrives. I think, only a very few will be born with knowledge of Saraswati (word) that overcomes the instinct from the beginning. I think that it is another extreme thing to condemn the so-called vices. For example, in Yoga Vashista, Lord Shiva teaches Vashista as below:

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=573

    The LORD continued: One should contemplate that the Lord is the intelligence in the body. The various functions and faculties in the body serve that intelligence as consorts serve their lord. The mind is the messenger who brings and presents to the Lord the knowledge of the three worlds. The two fundamental energies, viz. the energy of wisdom (Jnana sakti) and the energy of action (kriya sakti), are the consorts of the Lord. Diverse aspects of knowledge are his ornaments. The organs of action are the gates through which the Lord enters the outside world. ‘I am that infinite self which is indivisible; I remain full and infinite, thus the intelligence dwells in the body.

    He who contemplates in this manner is equanimity itself, his behavior is equanimous guided by equal vision. He has reached the state of natural goodness and inner purity and is beautiful in every aspect of his being. He worships the Lord who is the intelligence that pervades his entire body.

    This worship is performed day and night perpetually, with the objects that are effortlessly obtained, which are offered to the Lord with a mind firmly established in equanimity and in the right spirit (for the Lord is consciousness and cares only for the right spirit}. The Lord should be worshipped with everything that is obtained without effort. One should never make the least effort to attain that which one does not possess. The Lord should be worshipped by means of all the enjoyments that the body enjoys, through eating, drinking, being with one’s consort and such other pleasures. The Lord should be worshipped with the illnesses one experiences and with every sort of unhappiness or suffering one experiences. The Lord should be worshipped with all of one’s activities, including life and death and all of one’s dreams. The Lord should be worshipped with one’s poverty and prosperity. The Lord should be worshipped even with fights and quarrels as well as with, sports and other pastimes, and with the manifestations of the emotions of attraction and aversion. The Lord should be adored with the noble qualities of a pious heart, friendship, compassion, joy and indifference.

    The Lord should be worshipped with all kinds of pleasures that are granted to one unsought, whether those pleasures are sanctioned by the scriptures, etc. or forbidden by them. The Lord should be worshipped with those which are regarded as desirable and others which are regarded as undesirable, with those that are considered appropriate and others that are considered inappropriate. For this worship, one should abandon what is lost and one should accept and receive what has been obtained without effort.



    The LORD continued: One should engage oneself in this worship at all times, established in supreme equanimity in regard to all the percepts, whether they be pleasant or unpleasant. One should regard everything as good and auspicious. Realising that everything is the one self, one should worship the self in this spirit. One should look with equal vision upon that which is pleasant and beautiful through and through, and that which is unendurably unpleasant.

    One should abandon the divisive notions of ‘This I am’ and ‘This I am not’ and realise that ‘All this is indeed Brahman’, the one indivisible and infinite consciousness. In that spirit one should worship the self. At all times, in all forms and their modifications, one should worship the self in and through all that one obtains. One should worship the self after having abandoned the distinction between the desirable and the undesirable, or even while relying on such a distinction (but using them as the materials for the worship).

    Without craving and without rejecting, that which is effortlessly and naturally obtained may be enjoyed. One should not get excited or depressed when faced with insignificant or significant objects, just as neither sky nor space is so affected by the diverse objects that exist and grow in it. One should worship the self, without psychological perversion, with every object that is obtained purely on account of the coincidence of the time, place and activity whether they are popularly known as good or as not-good.

    In this procedure for the worship of the self, whatever article has been mentioned as being necessary for the worship is of the same nature as all others, though the expressions used are different. Equanimity is sweetness itself and this sweetness is beyond the senses and the mind. Whatever is touched by that equanimity instantly becomes sweet, whatever its description or definition may be. That alone is regarded as worship which is performed when one is in a state of equanimity when the mind has become utterly quiescent without the least movement of thought, when there is effortless absence of perversity. Established in this state of equanimity, the wise man should experience infinite expansion within himself while carrying out his natural actions externally without craving or rejection. Such is the nature of the worshipper of this intelligence. In his case, delusion, ignorance and ego sense do not arise even in dream. Remain in this state, O sage experiencing everything as a child does. Worship the Lord of this body (the intelligence that pervades it) with all that is brought to you by time, circumstance and environment, and rest in supreme peace, devoid of desire.


    The LORD continued:
    Whatever you do and whenever you do it (or refrain from doing it) - all that is worship of the Lord who is pure consciousness. By regarding all that as the worship of the self who is the Lord, he is delighted. Likes and dislikes, attraction and aversion, are not found in the self independent of its essential nature; they are mere words. Even the concepts indicated by words like ‘sovereignty’, ‘poverty’, ‘pleasure’, ‘pain’, ‘one’s own’ and ‘others’, are in fact worship of the self, for the conceiving intelligence is the self. Knowledge of the cosmic being alone is the proper worship of the cosmic being.


    Eventually, the existence itself is a worship. And Vigyan Bhairava tantra is a tribute to all life. It teaches us of divine in every act and everyone.

    Story of your aunt reminds me of another, which is sort of reverse rationalising. My father used to remind us of this often (he was against prudishness etc.). The story goes like this: A father enquires "Who is there in the mandir (home altar)?". Son hurriedly shouts back "I have not eaten the banana".

    Knowing that in me the instinct is unyieldingly stronger than the good will, which wants to be a good boy like Rama but fails, I personally prefer surrender. Let the tantriks follow their own path and let others follow their.

    I am now drawn at least to befriend the Nepalis who come to our temple and love to take the ends of the pumpkin plants.


    How funny. My father would bring some from Bengal everytime he visited. We are also mad for the taste of 'Kumro daga' (Pumpkin end or something). This reminds me of variety. I have found some food of Thailand closer to my mother's cooked food rather the ubiquitous red pepper-onion-tomato paste fried in oil that goes in the name of Indian food world over. To me, the paste is an insult. Similarly, some twenty years back, in Paris, some of us were taken to dinner by our french host. Being unable to correlate between the names of the dishes and their actual content, we settled for something intuitively. I then found to my chagrin my host eating a sort of fish curry with rice. Well that was what I should have ordered.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 20 June 2010 at 12:26 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Question about Meat, Alcohol, and Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    Why should I, you can look them up yourself. If you want to ignore them that's your choice. It's common for modern Hindus to disregard any sexual symbolism and animal sacrifice in the scriptures as later addition only on the basis that it's imprudish and couldn't possibly be part of the ancient text. Actually the reverse is true, later scholars have tried to clear up a lot of the "shameful subjects" in the scriptures.

    You said the twisted mind of western scholars made these translations up, but they were found in the Indian commentaries of Mahidhara and Uvata before the vedas were translated to English. So it's either a valid interpretation or a twisted fabrication of the Indian mind. But it's not a fabrication of the western mind.
    Be happy in drinking and sexual orgies for your spiritual journey. May God save you !

    Your knowledge is so low that I don't consider you fit for engaging in a worthwhile discussion.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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