Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: Torah, Torah, Torah

  1. #1

    Torah, Torah, Torah

    Namaste all,

    (does anyone get the joke in the title?)

    for you edification:

    http://www.comparative-religion.com/...h_torah_torah/

    an excerpt for your reading pleasure:

    1 - Summary of the "documents" analysis:

    The first five books of the Bible are called "Pentateuch" in Greek ("five texts") or "Torah" in Hebrew (from a causative form of the verb "to throw", the causative meaning roughly "to direct [another person's] aim"). They contain no statement about who is writing, or when. The compulsion in antiquity to give every book a named author led to the convention that these were "the books of Moses": never mind that the books include a description of the death of Moses; he was a prophet, after all, and could foresee that and write it down in advance (this is not a joke: that is seriously what you will be told if you ask that question). Medieval Jewish rabbis expanded this notion to the belief that God's revelation on Mt. Sinai was not just the 10 commandments, but the entire five books of the Torah (which must have made Moses feel a helpless sense of deja vu for the rest of his life), plus an oral tradition interpreting the finer points (which God did not bother to write down, but which the Talmud infallibly reflects). The ultra-orthodox among the Jews continue to hold this viewpoint. Christians have never gone that far, but fundamentalists will still insist the whole five books are by Moses (although there is no warrant for that in the text) and this was the unanimous view through the Reformation.

    The composite nature of the Torah was first understood in the 18th century. Among the numerous scholarly publications from this burst of activity, two stand out: Astruc's 1753 division of the text into the "Jehovist" document, abbreviated J , which consistently uses the sacred name YHWH (rendered "the LORD" in the King James Version) and the "Elohist" document E which uses "Elohim" ("God" in the KJV); and Ingel's 1798 recognition of the distinctive "First Elohist" strand, quite different in subject, tone, and language from the other authors, now called P for the "Priestly" source, since the initial impression that "First" Elohist was earlier than "Second" Elohist is the complete reverse of the truth. These scholars were too conservative to question the traditional view that Moses wrote all the books, and spoke only of "sources" which Moses must have "consulted"; more radical 19th-century scholars swung in the opposite direction, of decomposing the Torah into numerous "fragments" with no overall author; it is now apparent that there are other sources incorporated besides the big three, but that J/E/P do represent unitary documents by individual authors.

    The Torah contains numerous "doublets", in which the same story is told twice with slight variations, once by J and once by E . Abraham moves to a new country and tells everyone Sarah is his sister, since if it was known she was his wife, he might be killed by someone wanting to steal her; so the king takes her, and is divinely cursed, until Abraham fesses up. Once this happens in Philistia; once in Egypt: it is possible to believe that both stories are true, if you're willing to believe that Abraham is rather dim and doesn't learn his lessons well. In the story of Joseph, now vizier of Egypt, hiding valuables in the luggage of his brothers, now refugees who don't recognize him, in order to arrest them and test their state of mind, one retelling consistently uses "bags" and the other "sacks", as Elie Wiesel puts it: consistent dialectal differences in vocabulary usage ("pails"? or "buckets"?), well beyond the YHWH/Elohim difference, are the mark of the two strands. Sometimes the difference in the stories is rather significant: in J , God SPEAKS the 10 commandments and Moses carves them in stone; in E the stone tablets themselves are from "the finger of God". Apparently E is only copied where it has something at least slightly new to say: J can be disentangled as a complete narrative, but E is fragmentary. The doublet of Noah's flood is of a different kind from the others: the two retellings are intertwined verse-by-verse, and it takes some effort to pull them apart as two versions differing on some details (a pair of every animal? or a pair of every unclean animal and seven pairs of the clean?). Moreover, the alternate version is in the voice of P not E . E begins with Abraham, concentrates on the patriarchs' relationships to northern sites like Bethel and Shechem, and centers the Exodus narrative on the Mt. Sinai experience. J begins with the Garden of Eden, concentrates on the patriarchs' relationships to southern sites like Hebron and Beersheva, and centers the Exodus narrative on the long stay at Qadesh-Barnea.

    metta,

    ~v
    Meditation brings Wisdom, lack of meditation leaves ignorance. Know well what leads you forward and what holds you back.

    ~Buddha Shakyamuni

    *******************************

    I have gained this from philosophy:

    That i do, without being commanded, what others do only through fear of Law.

    ~Aristotle

  2. #2
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    New Delhi
    Age
    37
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    25
    That was very informative, Thanks for sharing.

  3. #3
    Namaste Eternal Law,

    thank you for the post.

    you are more than welcome

    by the by.. the joke (or humor, i should say) in the title is a play on the word "Torah"...

    in World War 2, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the signal that the attack was to commence was "Tora, Tora, Tora"

    metta,

    ~v
    Meditation brings Wisdom, lack of meditation leaves ignorance. Know well what leads you forward and what holds you back.

    ~Buddha Shakyamuni

    *******************************

    I have gained this from philosophy:

    That i do, without being commanded, what others do only through fear of Law.

    ~Aristotle

  4. #4
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    New Delhi
    Age
    37
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    25
    in World War 2, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the signal that the attack was to commence was "Tora, Tora, Tora"


    lol!...that was even more informative.

  5. #5
    Hi, I'm also very interested in this subject and I've been trying to analyse the Old Testament to discover its influences. (For more on that, please see the other thread in this section, Judaism - Where does it come from?)

    But anyway, one book that I'm in the process of reading is the Chaldean Account of Genesis, written in the 19th century by George Smith. He was one of those that first discovered the Chaldean account of the Flood, which was much earlier than the one in the Bible, but obviously the one that the Bible is based on.

    The story is part of what we know today as the Epic of Gilgamesh. You can read about it here:
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/chad/index.htm

    The story was written in cuneiform on clay tablets which were unearthed at the place of Nineveh. Assurbanipul, the Assyrian king, had put together a library of all these tablets.

    Another thread that I'm following is the word 'El'. El was the epithet for God in those parts, which is why you get Elohim. But El is also the first two letters of Elephanta and Ellora in India, which was a hive of ashramic activity back then. Pythagorus studied there under what's known as "the Brahmins", although I think they were probably babas or nagas. There are lots of other Els too...but the point is, I think it may have originally come from the Rig-vedic Il, who, I believe, was the highest mother Goddess, the Queen of Heaven. This I believe, as it spread through India, Egypt and Mesopotamia, gradually corrupted into the male god, or God, El, until the newly formed Judaic religion took it up and excluded the female goddess altogether, except in the later Gnostic-influenced writings.
    Gill

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Extrapolating Christianity--to What End?
    By saidevo in forum Christianity
    Replies: 178
    Last Post: 12 May 2008, 01:02 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •