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Thread: Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

  1. #31

    Re: Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

    Dear anadi,

    Thanks for your replies. It is always good to engage in scriptural discussions with devotees, but only if the purpose is to increase one anothers consciousness.

    I have read your previous posts on this subject (at least the main thread posted on the forum that your profile linked to). I think you are basing too much on externals. Bhakti is based on consciousness; after all the main goal is to become conscious of our eternal position in relationship with Kṛṣṇa and partake in intimate pastimes with Him. The purpose of all the aṅgas of bhakti (and everything we do in the vaidhi-bhakti stage) is explained in Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:
    In the Padma Purāṇa it is said:=
    One should always remember Viṣṇu and never forget Him. All injunctions and prohibitions are based upon these two principles.” [Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.8]
    I wasn't around during Bhaktisiddhanta's time so I can't say whether or not he received formal initiation (most of the arguments are based on different reports from different devotees). Formal initiation isn't as important as action though, and we can see that Bhaktisiddhanta certainly preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness vigorously and allowed it to become accessible to a larger audience (including the extremely fallen Westerners like myself, who would not have known about Gaudiya Vaisnavism without Him.).

    His actions show he was initiated by following instructions; what does a formal ceremony mean? Many people get formally initiated but do not take the important instructions to heart (to spread Kṛṣṇa Consciousness).
    For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me. There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear. [Bhagavad-gītā 18.68-69]
    Of course, now we see the essence has been lost in these big organizations and there is every reason to be skeptical of them. They think vaidhī-bhakti is the all in all (which of course it is not). They also base things on externals, due to a lack of understanding of consciousness.

    A Western-style religious organization was necessary for the time though, to infiltrate the West, because the entire world was under the control of corporate governments and religions. A corporate entity was needed for Gaudiya Vaisnavism to simply be recognized and to survive in such a hostile environment. Some things may have been changed for the purpose of encouraging others to take to GV, but the essence is there in scriptures for one who is sincere enough to study (and practice) deeply.

    None of the changes are proof that Bhaktisiddhanta was not a Gaudiya Vaisnava. Most of these are merely external things and can easily be argued, but again, it just comes to wasting time as it is my logic against your logic—my understanding of scripture against your understanding—with no real benefit in our personal bhakti. If one is more hung up on small details than remembering Viṣṇu then what hope is there. You need to find what increases your devotion for Kṛṣṇa, and grab on to it with both hands.

    I agree debate based on bhakti-śāstra can be very beneficial. Even if we reject all other scriptures, all other commentaries and all other lines and ācāryas coming from Lord Caitanya (such as rejecting Bhaktisiddhanta) we can't deny that Rupa Gosvami has given the ultimate conclusion in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu and so this is the śāstra we can firmly agree on the conclusions.

    Someone may still use dry logic using bhakti-śāstra, arguing for the taste of superiority or being right in an argument: an ego trip. This is still dry logic even while using bhakti-śāstra. A taste in bhakti means one is actually performing bhakti as defined in 1.1.11 and getting bhāva from it.
    The highest bhakti is defined as continuous service or emotions directed towards Kṛṣṇa, His expansion forms or others related to Him, with a pleasing attitude towards Kṛṣṇa. It should be devoid of desires other than the desire to please the Lord, and unobstructed by impersonal jńāna, the materialistic rituals of karma or other unfavorable acts.” [Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11]
    Argumentation and logic are important but only in the view of trying to bring others to a higher consciousness. Only you and Supersoul can see the reasons we argue because again this is based on consciousness. It seems that arguing over small details rather than trying to elevate others consciousness is dry logic, not bhakti.

    Devotion was certainly sparked in many people thanks to the spreading of GV on a widescale in the religious organizations of both Prabhupadas, which would not have been there without them.

    It is then up to the individual to study bhakti-śāstra and practice it to attain the ultimate goal. Distortions came unfortunately due to lack of knowledge and certainly the need for Religious organizations is over. Now it is important to get back to small intimate ashrams so we can cultivate uttama-bhakti and share nice loving exchanges between devotees:
    Offering gifts in charity, accepting charitable gifts, revealing one’s mind in confidence, inquiring confidentially, accepting prasāda and offering prasāda are the six symptoms of love shared by one devotee and another. [Upadeśāmṛta 4]
    Love and respect,

    Mukuteśvara dāsa

  2. #32
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    Re: Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

    Quote Originally Posted by mukutesvara View Post
    Dear anadi,
    I have read your previous posts on this subject (at least the main thread posted on the forum that your profile linked to). I think you are basing too much on externals. Bhakti is based on consciousness;
    Dandavat,

    1. It is true that one might be deluded to think in that way, but the externals have a big impact, through the mind, on the consciousness of any sadhaka, and this is why there are many rules for the externals.
    2. The second principle is that of anugatya – following the orders of the acaryas from the line of gurus one is following. In this case, as Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati, had no guru, and no guru line, he made up some other rules, and followed no particular line of siddha babas- (a particular gopi yutha in Krishna lila).
    3. Sadhana Bhakti has an external component, as well as an internal one and in the case of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati had his own ideas to ... get success, inventing a successful preaching misson very much simmilar to the Christian model, and made his own system.
    4. The most important ist also that on the internal level he left the path given by the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, as long as he never accepted a guru, who should have give him bheka and siddha pranali.

    "A siddha-pranali consists of the guru-pranali, a channel of gurus, in their siddha-forms (gopi-svarupas). One’s own guru, his guru, and the subsequent gurus traced back to the associates of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu form the guru-pranali, i.e one’s own guru-parampara.

    In due course of time, a guru in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya reveals the details of his own siddha-form, of the siddha-forms of the preceding gurus, and of the siddha-form of the sadhaka to the qualified sadhaka. This is popularly called the giving of siddha-pranali, as the initiate becomes the last link in a channel of gopis preserved over the generations from a guru to a disciple."
    Last edited by anadi; 18 March 2011 at 12:58 AM.

  3. #33
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    Re: Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

    Dandavat,

    According to Gaudiya Vaishnavism, initiation (which Bhaktisiddhanta never had) is not something external:

    1. Harinam is actually considered the blessing to start chanting, or the so called "first initiation", like devotees say it in the west. It is different from Iskcon and some Gaudiya Math types of "so called" first initiations.

    2. Mantra Diksa (Krishna Mantra Diksa), this is connection with line/Parivar.The actual Diksa.

    3. Sri Sri Siddha Pranali initiation comes later or whenever Guru-maharaja decides to give it.
    In this connection Thakur
    Thakur Bhaktivinod wrote in Harinama Cintamani:

    Sadhaker jakhon raganugamarga lobha hoy, takhan
    sadgtzur nikata prarthana korile tini sadhaker
    ruci parikha koriya tahar bhajan nirnoyer
    sange sange siddha deher paricaya koriya diben

    When the sadhak’s lobha is awakened for the path of attachment (Raganuga bhakti) he will approach his Gurudeva with great humility.
    After testing the disciple’s sincerity the bonafide Guru will instruct the disciple and adjust his bhajan according to the identity of his siddha svarupa.

    Sri Gopal Guru Goswami, the first acarya in Gambira, wrote at the command of Sri Caitanya a Manual (Archana Paddhati) about the procedure of raganuga bhakti which gives details about siddha pranali:

    asyaiva siddhadehaysya sadhanani jatakramam
    ekadasa prasidhani lakhyantehati monoharam
    nama rupam bayo beshah sambandho jutha eva ca
    ajna seva parakastha palyadasi nivasakah

    The eleven features comprising one’s eternal siddha-deha are as follows:
    name - nama,
    form - rupam
    age - bayo,
    dress – beshah
    relationship- sambandho ,
    group – jutha,
    instruction - ajna
    specific service - seva,
    highest ambition (to attain a particular blessing)- parakastha,
    the sakhi one serves under – palyadasi
    residence (in a particular Kunja and village) – nivasakah.

    Instead of it, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati introduced the Siddhanta of being one who descended directly from Vrindavan, to preach Sri Caitanya’s message, and many of his disciples presented themselves as such, following no raganuga-bhakti, as long as they were already from Goloka Vrindavan directly, or better said as long as they have never been taught such thing.
    For example the "new" famous preacher Narayana Maharaja, who attracted many Iskcon devotees by his presentation of rasa Siddhanta, which is quite scarce in Iskcon, says that one should continue to chant and remember the pastimes of Radha Krishna, and automatically one’s own siddha-svarupa will be revealed, a siddhanta which is against Gaudiya Bhakti Siddhanta.

    Preaching is wonderful, and this is only the level of the madyama adhikari.
    The beginners (kanishta adhikara) are not qualified to do it, but they are pushed more or less by “the mission”.
    The realized bhaktas have no taste in it, and hardly accept any disciples, as the shastra also command; they prefer to dive in the pastimes of Lord Krishna.

    Is up to everyone, to accept the previous acaryas way of bhajan, or to follow the preaching mission of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.
    Everybody has a different speed in bhakti, and particularly in Gaudiya bhakti.
    Wherever one stays, it is one’s right place to be, as long as one feels ok there, otherwise he may seek further.

    nijapekha srestha suddha bhavuk je jana
    bhavamarge gurudeva sei mahajan
    tahar sri mukhe bhava tattver sravan
    hoile sravan dasa hoy prakatan
    bhava tattva dviprakar koraba bicar
    nija ekadasbhava Krishna lika ara (Harinama Cintamani)

    One requires the best, pure person, taster of bhava.
    That guru, which is on the bhava path is a great personality
    From such a mouth one should hear
    the truth about the two kinds of bhava
    one's own coming out of eleven types of bhava -nija ekadasbhava
    and that which comes out of the pastimes of Krishna
    Last edited by anadi; 18 March 2011 at 12:45 AM.

  4. #34
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    Re: Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

    Quote Originally Posted by mukutesvara View Post
    The purpose of all the aṅgas of bhakti (and everything we do in the vaidhi-bhakti stage) is explained in Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu ... 1.2.8
    dandavat

    in my opinion there is a wide spread misunderstanding in the preaching Missions coming from Bhaktisiddhanta, concerning the angas of bhakti, seen also in your writing. The angas of bhakti are not restricted only to vaidhi bhakti. Raganuga bhakti has also angas of bhakti; Raganuga bhakti is a type of sadhana

    Here it is a description of Raganuga Sadhan bhakti given in Bhakti-rasämrita-sindhu 1.2.295

    sevA sAdhaka-rUpeNa siddha-rUpeNa cAtra hi |
    tad-bhAva-lipsunA kAryA vraja-lokAnusArataH ||

    The devotional service should be done both -sevA cAtra hi
    in the body of practitioner (externally)- sAdhaka-rUpeNa
    and in the perfect(spiritual) body (internally) - siddha-rUpeNa
    Desiring to obtain a particular state of love - tad-bhAva-lipsunA ,
    whose essence (in obtaining it) is to follow the residents of Vrindavan -sArataH kAryA anu vraja-loka


    Tika:
    As we have seen the informations about one’s spiritual body (siddha deha) are received in the Siddha Pranali initiation (comprising the ekadas bhava), which is even derided in the branches of Gaudiya Math (which includes Iskcon).
    Commenting on this verse Srila Vishwanath Cakrabarti describes from the point of view of a rupa-anuga devotee the two types of angas of bhakti practiced in “sadhak-rupa” and “siddha-rupa” following Rupa Goswami, respectively Rupa Manjari :

    Sadhakrupena jathabastitadehen siddha rupena
    antascintita-bhistatat sakhat servopajogidehen
    sadhakarupenanugayamanaje brajalokah srirupa
    goswamyadaya je ca siddharupenanugamyamanah
    Brajalokah srirupa-manjaryaryadyastad anusaratah (Ragabartma-candrika)

    “Sadhak-rupena-seva means devotional service performed in the present body.
    Siddha-rupena-seva is contemplation of one’s antascintita-deha (mentally conceived form) suitable for perfoming direct seva to Krishna.
    A sadhak should perform the prescribed acarana (worship) exemplified by Sri Rupa Goswamin in his sadhak-deha, and follow in Sri Rupa Manjaris’s footsteps in his antascintita-manjari svarupa. Because Rupa Goswami is the ideal Brajavasi following in his footsteps both externally and internally forms the ideal meaning of Braja-loka-anusaratah.”

    Raganuga bhakti is also a sadhana which comprises angas of bhakti.
    Raga-anuga bhakti was false understood as spontaneous bhakti, which is in fact the attribute of Raga-atmika bhakti, which is the state of the eternal residents of Vrindavan as explained in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.2.270).

    virājantīm abhivyaktāḿ vraja-vāsi-janādiṣu
    rāgātmikām anusṛtā rāgānugocyate

    The following of that spontaneous attachement - anusṛtā rāga-ātmikām
    That is Shining (and) fully manifested in the eternal residents of Vrindavan- virājantīm abhivyaktām vraja-vāsi-jana-ādiṣu
    Is called Raga-anuga bhakti - ucyate rāga-anugā
    Tika:
    Raga-anuga bhakti has as its main practice the internal following (anuga) of the mood of the residents of Vrindavan.
    In his Ragavartma-candrika, Srila Vishwanath Cakrabarti says:

    prathamatah krishnam smaran iti smaranasyatra
    raganugayam mukhyetvam ragasyamanodharmatvat

    “As raga (attachment) is the occupation of the mind, so is smaran; therefore, smaran is the main limb of sadhana for the Raganuga practitioner.”
    Last edited by anadi; 18 March 2011 at 03:03 AM.

  5. #35
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    Re: Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

    Quote Originally Posted by mukutesvara View Post
    I wasn't around during Bhaktisiddhanta's time so I can't say whether or not he received formal initiation (most of the arguments are based on different reports from different devotees).
    Dandavat,
    1. One should take into consideration that there are two kinds of reports: those of the mission of Bhaktisiddhanta and thsoe of the "others".
    2. The fact that he never followed any parivar line of Sri Caitanya but invented "his own" line shows in my opinion, quite clearly, that he never took diksha - the initiation in a parivar line, and this make the reports of "the others" to seem more trustworthy.
    3. Breaking with the Gaudiya bhakti tradition, braught with it many deviations, (part of them already posted). Simillarly Iskcon breaking even with Bhaktisiddhanta's oraganizations (devotees from Iskcon been said to read only the books of ... "Prabhupada" and whatever the Iskcon GBC certified as "bona fide") braught even more deviations (especially in siddhanta).
    Last edited by anadi; 21 March 2011 at 11:51 AM.

  6. #36
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    Re: Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

    Quote Originally Posted by mukutesvara View Post
    Dear anadi,
    Formal initiation isn't as important as action though, and we can see that Bhaktisiddhanta certainly preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness vigorously and allowed it to become accessible to a larger audience (including the extremely fallen Westerners like myself, who would not have known about Gaudiya Vaisnavism without Him.).
    1. "Formal initiation" is a terminology invented by the followers of Bhaktisiddhanta. As previously stated Diksha or Initiation, is the linking with the parampara – the unbrocken chain of (for example) gopis (sakhis, manjaris or any other type of gopi) that leads to a Yutheshvari in Vrindavan who came with Gauranga in his Nawadwip lila.

    2. Of course preaching bhakti is praiseworthy, making it “accessible to a large audience” but preaching the so called “Krişna consciousness” has not so much of the flair and speciality of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

    3. You don’t come to bhakti, because, someone preaches something like that to you, but because you have to come to it; Krishna has already arranged it for you, and He comes to you as the guru you deserve to have. You are the one who make it happen, through your actions and desires of yore. It is not that Krishna played dice, and picked you up for… . There are verses in the shastra to prove this point.

    4. On what level is preaching, or serving the Lord in this world? The Christians know - redemption - liberation. (Their problem is only that their so called holy books and history are highly forged, a process that we already met also in Gaudiya Vaishnavism).
    Rupa Gosvami quotes Nāridīya Purāa:

    dvitiya, yathā nāradīye —
    īhā yasya harer dāsye karmaā manasā girā |
    nikhilāsv apy avasthāsu jīvan-mukta sa ucyate ||1.2.187||

    The second type (of serving - dāsyam is illustrated) in the Nāridīya Purāa:
    “He who has the desire to serve the Lord in this world with actions, mind and words is called a liberated jīva in all circumstances.”

    Are the Gaudiya Vaishnavas so keen for liberation? As much as I know, this comes not in their Siddhanta. They want a lot more. So preaching missions in Christian style (Iskcon-s, “Gaudiya”-Maths), is not Gaudiya Siddhanta or Veda-anata.

  7. Re: Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Braja Bhushan das View Post
    Dear Elizabeth

    let me start the list with two links to my gurudev who comes in a traditional Gaudiya Vaisnava line.

    www.uttama-bhakti.org - an introductory site with a forum (English and Spanish)
    www.sriharidasniwas.org - the official homepage

    Hope this will inspire others to add more links.
    Just a reminder that the uttama bhakti site has started to publish Vaisnava works in English and Spanish in the form of free ebooks - http://www.uttama-bhakti.org/books.html (bottom part). The first ebook published, though, is a spiritual guide for all followers of sanatana dharma.

  8. #38
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    Re: Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

    The nimbark site http://nimbark.org/ is good too

  9. #39

    Re: Let's collect not ISKCON-related VAISHNAVA sites here, pls.

    Dear Elizabeth , I appreciate your idea.I always maintain that there is vast vaishnav traditions beyond this gaudiya math/mission and we should try to know them.Remember ISKON is not independent conception. It has its parent body. Any vaishnab thought in the line of bhakti vinod thakur and his son bhakti siddhanta saraswati who is the grand grand father of all gaudiya math and mission will be same.ISKON is a part of gaudiya family .
    I request all lover of vaishnav tradition of chaitany mahaprabhu to read chaitanya charitamrita edited by any writer who does not belong to any sampradaya.Repeated reading will help to understand the grantha and then you will see the difference between what mahaprabhu wants from us and what gaudiya math/ISKON preaches .
    I agree with Anadiji and appreciate him for presenting the true picture of bhakti siddhanta saraswati's character.
    lastly i will follow the sites to identify them.

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