"Rigveda, collected about 1000 BCE, has at least half a dozen Dravidian loanwords"

[brahman]

Acceptance speech of Asko Parpola at World Classical Tamil Conference [ Date : Jun 24th, 2010 ]

Following is the text of acceptance speech of Asko Parpola, recipient of the Kalaignar M. Karunanidhi Classical Tamil Award, at the inauguration of the World Classical Tamil Conference in Coimbatore on Wednesday (June 23, 2010):







"Your Excellency the President of India, Srimati Pratibha Devisingh Patil, Honourable Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu, Thiru Kalaignar M. Karunanidhi, distinguished dignitaries, dear colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, Vanakkam!
It is indeed a very great honour to receive the first Kalaignar M. Karunanidhi Classical Tamil Award from the President of India. Yet I feel embarrassed, because my work is only partly related to Classical Tamil, while there are Classical Tamil specialists who really would have deserved this award. But as this is not the only time when the award is given, I humbly accept that this is my turn. I am most grateful for the very considerable support for my continued work in this field.
The Government of India has rightly recognized Tamil as a classical language, a status that it fully deserves in view of its antiquity and its rich literature that in quality and extent matches many other classical traditions of the world. Yet, Tamil is not alone in possessing such a rich heritage in India, which is really a very exceptional country with so many languages having old and remarkable literatures, both written and oral. Sanskrit with its three thousand years old tradition has produced an unrivalled number of literary works.
Sanskrit goes back to Proto-Indo-Aryan attested in a few names and words related to the Mitanni kingdom of Syria between 1500 and 1300 BCE, and to earlier forms of Indo-Iranian known only from a few loanwords in Finno-Ugric languages as spoken in central Russia around 2000 BCE. But none of these very earliest few traces is older than the roots of Tamil. Tamil goes back to Proto-Dravidian, which in my opinion can be identified as the language of the thousands of short texts in the Indus script, written in 2600-1700 BCE. There are, of course, different opinions, but many critical scholars agree that even the Rigveda, collected in the Indus Valley about 1000 BCE, has at least half a dozen Dravidian loanwords.
Old Tamil texts constitute the only source of ancient Dravidian linguistic and cultural heritage not yet much contaminated by the Indo-Aryan tradition. Without it, it would be much more difficult if not impossible to penetrate into the secrets of the Indus script and to unravel the beginnings of India�s great civilization. In my opinion the Tamils are entitled to some pride for having preserved so well the linguistic heritage of the Indus Civilization. At the same time, it must not be forgotten that, though their language has shifted in the course of millennia, people of North India too are to a large extent descended from the Harappan people, and have also preserved cultural heritage of the same civilization.
Nanri! Tamiz vaazka!"

more reading


Indus Writing Analysis by Asko Parpola

Asko Parpola's homepage

[Believer]

In my opinion the Tamils are entitled to some pride for having preserved so well the linguistic heritage of the Indus Civilization. At the same time, it must not be forgotten that, though their language has shifted in the course of millennia, people of North India too are to a large extent descended from the Harappan people, and have also preserved cultural heritage of the same civilization.

Tamils are surely entitled to not just some, but lot of pride for their cultural/linguistic/religious/architectural traditions. All castes and communities and groups of Tamils have been at the forefront of making contributions to, and nurturing the Indian heritage. The beautiful old temples they built over the centuries, the intellect they possess, the greenery of the land they inhabit is astounding. The mosaic of India is incomplete without all its pieces and Tamils form a centerpiece of that mosaic. All glories to the Tamils!

[Sahasranama]

The dravidian languages originate as much from sanskrit as the north Indian languages. Westerners made the distinction between Indo european languages that are related to sanskrit and dravidian languages that are unrelated to sanskrit.

The vedas are apaurusheya and therefore cannot have any loanwords.

[Believer]

The dravidian languages originate as much from sanskrit as the north Indian languages.

Westerners .....and dravidian languages that are unrelated to sanskrit.

Seems like conflicting statements???

The purpose of the forum is to find common ground and unite all Hindus, not split hair and keep them divided, as has been the case for thousands of years!

[Sahasranama]

Tamil was declared to be a classical language, like Sanskrit but independent of it. Tamils want to take pride in it being accorded the same footing as Sanskrit. Why would you want to jump in without thinking and hurt their feelings by denying them this one piece of glory. I know you did not mean to belittle them, but that is what you ended up doing. Please be mindful of what you say/write. Think before you leap. I bring out an old dormant thread that no one touched, to praise the Tamils, and all you can do is totally negate that. You probably get the urge to be an authority on everything and make lot of posts, but, PLEASE think before you open your mouth. If it will hurt somebody or take away his pride, save your words for another day.

Thank you for your contributions to the forum, but, please be mindful of what you write.

I think you misread my words. It wasn't my intention to say that Dravidian languages are seperated from the Sanskrit language. Of course, there is some linguistic diversity between north Indian languages and south Indian languages, but vocabulary wise the dravidian languages are more related to Sanskrit than other ancient Indo-european languages like, let's say Ancient Greek or Latin. Westerners have been pretending that Greek and Latin are more related to Sanskrit than Tamil, Kannada or Telugu.

My objection was only to the use of the word "loan word" which cannot apply to the vedic text, since they are apaurusheya. If there are similar words between vedic Sanskrit and another language, may it be Hindi, Tamil or Proto-Indo-European, we must assume that the other language has loaned the words from Vedic Sanskrit. This is not how historians or archeologists would look at it, but in Hinduism it is known for a fact that the Vedas are the breath of God, spoken in the language of God and the Vedas were not created by man, but are revealed in their eternal form. Any Tamil Brahmana worth his salt would tell you the same.

[rainycity]

some scholars are now proposing a greater language family that includes dravidian languages with the indo-european language family.

[Sahasranama]

Tamil is a great language, but it's not classical. The oldest Tamil texts are one millenium old and are adaptations of Sanskrit texts. If Tamil can be classified as classical, then almost any Indian language should be classified as classical. People who speak Kannanda, Telugu or Malayam also want their language to be classified as classical, since Tamil has been declared classical by the goverment. This is all a big joke.

[flabber]

Tamil is a great language, but it's not classical. The oldest Tamil texts are one millenium old and are adaptations of Sanskrit texts. If Tamil can be classified as classical, then almost any Indian language should be classified as classical. People who speak Kannanda, Telugu or Malayam also want their language to be classified as classical, since Tamil has been declared classical by the goverment. This is all a big joke.

citations please.

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

The title of this thread is a typical way of disinformation by the Western Indologists and the so-called Dravidian political parties who support them for their own vested interests.

• First off, Rg Veda was not 'collected about 1000 BCE'. Even a skeptical WI like Max Mueller with a Christian agenda estimated the date of Rg Veda to be 1500 BCE. LokamAnya Tilak has in his researches put the date to 6000 BCE. KAnchi ParamAchArya in his speeches collected as a book titled 'Hindu Dharma: Universal Way of Life', gives a highly convincing and enlightening account of why the Vedas are anAdi--timeless, and how all of them were created together and not at different periods.

• The term 'Dravidian' as used in the title statement gives a wrong notion of their being a separate race, as against the Aryan, whereas in reality both these terms do NOT denote races as the mischievous Western Indologists of their colonial rule of India made the gullible elite and commons of India to believe during their tenure, and their bootlickers try to persist with today, in a vain attempt to keep the AIT alive.

• The Sanskrit term Arya, as everyone knows, denotes any Hindu with noble qualities; and the term DrAviDa denotes country and the people (not a race) of southern part of BhAratam.

• There is no doubt that Tamizh is an ancient language, from which was born the other South Indian languages KannaDa, Telegu, MalayALam, and TuLu. The first known Tamizh book of grammar was called 'Agastyam' authored by sage Agastya, who is believed to have participated in the first Tamizh Sangham held at the old Madurai. Taking into account the fact that a Chera King named Udiyan CheralAthan, who fed the armies of the PANDavas and the Kauvaras, is mentioned in MahAbhArata, it is possible that the first Tamizh Sangham was held during the period of the events in the ItihAsa.

• Although Tamizh scholars are fond of saying that the word Sangha in Tamizh Sangham was from the Buddha-Jaina 'sangha', the origin of that term itself is in Sanskrit!

• Tamizh Sangham legends speak of how God Shiva himself paid a visit to a Tamizh sangha session and debated with the poet NakkIran, after the latter refused to acknowledge the greatness of a verse given to a poor poet named Dharumi by Shiva himself!

• The earliest extant work of Tamizh literature is 'TolkAppiyam', a work of grammar, by TolkAppiyar, whose date is estimated earliest at 500 BCE. This work is modelled on their Sanskrit counterparts of PANinI and Patanjali (among others). TolkAppiyam is still the authoratative reference of Tamizh grammar and is studied in school and college courses.

• The most well known work of Tamizh, 'TirukkuraL' by TiruvaLLuvar, is said to have the least number of Sanskrit words, yet the first words of its very first verse are:

'Akara mudala ezuththellAm; Adi bhagavan mudaTRE ulaku'.
"Just as alphabets originate at the Akaram--the letter A,
this world originates at Bhagavan".

KAnchi ParamAchArya has established that 'Bhagavan' was a popular reference for Shiva during VaLLuvar's time.

• Thus, there is no question of denial of relationship between Tamizh and Sanskrit and that Sanskrit is much earlier in time to Tamizh, and possibly the mother language of Tamizh. Even in today's Tamizh speech and writing, over 60% of the vocabulary comprises words derived from their Sanskrit counterparts.

• The name Tamizh itself is probably derived from the Sanskrit 'DramiL/DramiDa'. Since there is no Sanskrit alphabet to produce the sound 'zh' in the name Tamizh, the country and the people of this land were known as 'DramiDa'. This link has some textual references, but I am not sure of their authenticity:
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question...5085948AAqkjE0

The origin of Tamizh from Dramila is also discussed in this book:
'The Racial History of India' by Chandra Chakraberty
http://www.isec.ac.in/Racila%20history%20of%20India.pdf

• The Tamizh script is based on a variation of the Brahmi script called Tamil Brahmi, but in today's form, there are striking similarities between Tamizh and Sanskrit/DevanAgari alphabets, specially with regard to the letters 'a, i, u, e, ka, ta, pa, Na, ya'.

The extent of veracity of all the above references does not in any way dimish the greatness of the Tamizh language, which is my mother tongue and a language I studied up to the college level. I have a good collection of Tamizh Sangham, and bhakti literature and I read/refer to them frequently.

[brahman]

namaste everyone.

The title of this thread is a typical way of disinformation by the Western Indologists and the so-called Dravidian political parties who support them for their own vested interests.
.

Dear Sri. Sai,

That was indeed a very convincing post.

Here, I remember how you added a sense of humor in an earlier post- Nice, clean humour.

Joke: "There are three sides to any argument: your side, my side and the right side."

For that same reason, I try not to insist that �Western Indologists and the so-called Dravidian political parties� are misinforming anyone.�

At the same time, I accurately believe (or was taught to believe) the Vedas are anadi-timeless, are created together and not in different periods and that Sanskrit could be the mother of all languages in the sub-continent.

God knows the right side of it.

Thanks again for the very informative post. Love



.