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Thread: Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

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    Talking Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

    Eating meat was never wrong in Hinduism! Just think why do we sacrifice an animal if we don't want to eat them?

    A research tells that about 2000 years ago 80% of vegetarian food that we are eating was not available! So people ate mat.


    It was because of effects of Jainism.

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    Re: Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

    The renowned author vankim chandra chatterjee(author of vande mataram , the national song of india) once met with the famous nineteenth century saint ramakrishna paramahamsa in dakshineshwar temple .

    ramakrishna asked " you are very learned . what do you think is the goal of human life ? "

    vankim----" if you ask me , i would say , finding food , sleep and sexual life are the pillars of human existence "

    ramakrishna(in disgust) ------ " yuck ! you belch of what you eat ! you are such a high scholar and such a pandita . and to get this answer from you ! loving god and striving for self realization are the only aims of a human in this life . vultures(dry scholars) can soar very high in the sky , but their gaze remains fixed to the ground in search of rotting carcass "


    so i say "YOU BELCH WHAT YOU EAT"

    tell me are you a meat eater
    Last edited by sambya; 01 July 2010 at 12:10 PM.
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

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    Re: Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

    Quote Originally Posted by sambya View Post
    The renowned author vankim chandra chatterjee(author of vande mataram , the national song of india) once met with the famous nineteenth century saint ramakrishna paramahamsa in dakshineshwar temple .

    ramakrishna asked " you are very learned . what do you think is the goal of human life ? "

    vankim----" if you ask me , i would say , finding food , sleep , protection and sexual life are the pillars of human existence "

    ramakrishna(in disgust) ------ " yuck ! you belch of what you eat ! you are such a high scholar and such a pandita . and to get this answer from you ! loving god and striving for self realization are the only aims of a human in this life . vultures(dry scholars) can soar very high in the sky , but their gaze remains fixed to the ground in search of rotting carcass "
    Dear Sambya,
    What is the source of the stories about Ramakrishna that you often cite from? They are not really flattering for the saint, they depict him as a self centered, rude and unkind person ignorant of the shastras. Are you shure that the source is authentic?

    According to shastras the 4 legitimate aims of humans are well defined. They are:

    Dharma (duty which includes protection)

    Artha (art and wealth) including of course as most vital elements, health, and procurement of food and shelter

    Kama (Satisfaction of sensual pleasures and sexuality)

    and Moksha (release form Rebirth)

    The authors answer to R.´s Question is therefore is a very wise one and in accordance with the shastras, while the alleged answer of the so called "saint" that "loving god is the sole aim" is foolish ignorance, contrary to the shastras and there is no shastra pramana at all to be found for such a viewpoint, while the 3 of the 4 Purusharthas mentionend by the author, are exactly the destined aims of the humans, especially the grihastas, since moksha is not a priority for the average person. Therefore the aims Sri Bankim Chandra Chatterjee mentioned are those that are laid down in the shastras. This was a flawless answer and a very ignorant and rude alleged reply of the "saint".

    In this story Bankim Chandra Chatterjee is my hero, protecting the dharma. I hope this story is just a hoax or a legend and this is not what Ramakrishna actually said to this great man. As a bengali you should know what the novel "Anandamath" and therefore also Bankim Chandra Chatterjee and his literary work stands for and not be told by a ferengi. What a disgrace!
    Last edited by satay; 03 July 2010 at 02:22 AM.

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    Re: Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

    namaste mahahrada ji . yes its authentic .

    taken from sri ramakrishna kathamrita or as it is known in english 'the gospel of ramakrishna' .

    although the translation here was my own since i have the book in bengali .

    personally i dont see anything wrong in this statement . as far as my limited knowledge goes realization of god is the ultimate goal in hindu way , something that ramakrishna always stressed to people around him .

    when ramakrishna asked him about the aim of human birth bankim replied 'ahaar , nidra and maithuna' . to this ramakrishna made the aforesaid remark . it was not in his habit to be overtly diplomatic or a hypocrite so generally he expressed his feelings openly without thinking much of society or people around him . although in this particular incident ramakrishna later appologised to bankim in case he was offended . and the discussion between them went on as usuall .

    now in my personal observation ahar nidra and maithuna doesnt exanctly correspond to dharma artha kama moksha . rather it corresponds to pashu dharma . and even within the four purusharthas doesnt moksha occupy the ultimate post ..........atleast theoritically( i agree that practically speaking for the majority it is not the goal) ? isnt the vedic ashramas(brahmacharya,grihasta,........etc) all ultimately directed to striving for moksha ?

    i might require some time to find out the exact page number etc since the book has five volumes !
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

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    Re: Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

    part of that meeting . i couldnt find the online version . im translating the relevant parts --

    RK - you are a great scholar , and have written so much . you tell me , what is the goal of this human birth ? what is the thing that will remain with us after death ...in next life ?

    VANKIM - next life ? whats that ?

    RK - yes . after gyana one needn't go to other lokas . there no rebirth then . but unless one gets god one has to come again and again to this material world . once the rice is boiled it wont germinate if sown in the soil . similarly once we are boiled in gyana-agni(the fire of knowledge) he cannot participate in this play of creation anymore . can a boiled rice grain ever germinate ?

    VANKIM ( laughing ) -- mister ! a useless weed doesnt help anyone .

    RK--a gyani is not a weed though ! one who has seen god has got the nectarian fruit , not petty pumpkins or gourds ! he doesnt come back to be born .

    the talk goes on about the temporal nature of this world and the absolute nature of god -- the ultimate aim of human birth .

    RK -- okay , you tell me what is the aim of human birth ?

    VANKIM ( with a smile ) --- if you must ask me ........eating , sleeping and sex !

    RK -- yuck ! you have such thoughts ! what you do day and night is coming out of your mouth . a man belches what he eats . you eat a radish and you belch of radish . you stay within lust and gold day and night and that is coming out of your mouth ! engaging in worldly thoughts makes one materialistic . people become narrow minded . ishwar chinta(contemplaying on god) makes a man simple . someone who has seen god can never utter such words . what will dry knowledge do , if there is no contemplations of god . a vulture can sore very high but his gaze remains fixed to the ground . a pandita can mumble a thousand slokas perfectly , has written many books but often remains engrossed in girls and money . is he a pandita ? without godly thoughts , what is his knowledge ?
    but those who contemplate on god and pray to him to take away their material lust and acttraction towards money , for them material rasa(pleasure) tastes bitter . they become like swans . they take the milk and leave aside the water . they walk straight .
    ( softly towards vankim ) please dont take offense of my words !

    VANKIM -- its okay . im prepared .



    personally to me it exposes two characteristical traits of ramakrishna . his equal impartial view of human beings . at that time vankim was a renowned person . the prefix 'rishi' was used in front of his name , due to his psuedo relgious literary works .
    but ramakrishna did not show any special favour to him . he spoke out whatever he had in his mind clearly.
    and barely after he finished he is asking forgiveness from him like a child willing to patch up with his friend after their fights are over .

    during that time ramakrishna was very respected too . yet he was humble enough to ask forgiveness in front of everyone .

    and i cannot find any link between eating sleeping and sex with the four purushasrthas . as i have said before , they seems like pashu dharma to me . only one thing is missing -- atmaraksha !

    yes anandamath remains my favorutie novel for its intense spirituality and intense patriotism . apart from that i am admirer of many other vankims works too like durgeshnandini and kapala kundala .
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

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    Re: Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

    Quote Originally Posted by sambya View Post
    namaste mahahrada ji . yes its authentic .

    taken from sri ramakrishna kathamrita or as it is known in english 'the gospel of ramakrishna' .

    although the translation here was my own since i have the book in bengali .

    personally i dont see anything wrong in this statement . as far as my limited knowledge goes realization of god is the ultimate goal in hindu way , something that ramakrishna always stressed to people around him .

    when ramakrishna asked him about the aim of human birth bankim replied 'ahaar , nidra and maithuna' . to this ramakrishna made the aforesaid remark . it was not in his habit to be overtly diplomatic or a hypocrite so generally he expressed his feelings openly without thinking much of society or people around him . although in this particular incident ramakrishna later appologised to bankim in case he was offended . and the discussion between them went on as usuall .

    now in my personal observation ahar nidra and maithuna doesnt exanctly correspond to dharma artha kama moksha . rather it corresponds to pashu dharma . and even within the four purusharthas doesnt moksha occupy the ultimate post ..........atleast theoritically( i agree that practically speaking for the majority it is not the goal) ? isnt the vedic ashramas(brahmacharya,grihasta,........etc) all ultimately directed to striving for moksha ?

    i might require some time to find out the exact page number etc since the book has five volumes !
    It is not wise to say that moksha is the highest or sole goal, propagation of such an idea is not good for human society and welfare of the state. Only Dharma and the nameless absolute are realities, the other Purusharthas are subjects of Maya. Only by following Dharma selfleslly as a result the other aims may ripen. For the sannyasin focus on Moksha is only a priority, because it is the Dharma of that ashrama. But even if Moksha would be considered the highest goal, which is a quite common error, it doesn´t apply here because Ramakrishna did not even mention moksha, "loving God" is a bhava only. How can cultivation of a single bhava be the sole aim for humans? This would only create imbalanced neurotic personalities. The alleged reply of Ramakrishna is ignorant and misleading from whatever angle you look at it, and Bankimchandra Chatterjee´s remark is not only realistic but even if simplified nonetheless an expression of the basic needs of humans, (as they are delineated in the Purusharthas) 3 of them are mentionend in the universal declaration of human rights. Food shelter and protection from harm are basic legitimate human rights, nothing any good person would deny to anyone, much less something a saint should criticise as being lowly like a carcass. Also a saint needs to eat and sleep and have some shelter from rain and cold which is usually provided to him free of charge by others why should he show contempt for these people? Without their desire for these basic needs and their kindness to share them he would shurely die, in case that it is really true that he is lacking self interest to acquire them by his own activity and desire, because "loving god" does not produce food.
    Last edited by satay; 03 July 2010 at 02:18 AM.

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    Re: Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

    well , i have presented the facts as it is . its upto to you to view them in whichever way you like .

    for me i still dont see any mistake with ramakrishna . the saint had a childlike nature , far from hypocrisy and self glorification . he said whatever came to him natrually . he was not rude , never impolite . but never a hypocrite . his rural so called unsophisticated ways might not suit to many . but it cant be helped . facts remains a fact . to me sophisticated social interaction as we see in a typical city life is actually indirect hypocrisy and hidden diplomacy . the statement of ramakrishna may appear as rude since we will be judging him by our standards -- namely western influenced sophisticated social mannerisms which teaches us not to speak out harsh truth and carry a plastic smile on face . such things were not known to him , more so due to his spiritual nature . he had no one to appease and no one to hate .

    i dont blame vankim either , since he was an author not a sadhak in the first place . but perhaps after having a long discussion on the temporal nature of this world etc he should have been a little more carefull while answering .

    as regards the purusharthas , i still believe that realization is the ultimate end word of it . nothing equals the desire to realize god , be it through path of bhakti or of gyana . judging by circumstancial evidence found in hindu scriptures i also think that moksha remains the ultimate goal . each human was advised to strive for moksha as per his individual capacity -- the adhikaari bheda . but the end goal was fixed in hindu society . all other goals converged in the struggle for self realization .

    you said " other purusharthas are objects of maya " . i couldnt get that one . how can moksha be an object of maya ?

    universal declarations on human rights ? good .....but irrelevant in hindu spirituality .

    Also a saint needs to eat and sleep and have some shelter from rain and cold which is usually provided to him free of charge by others why should he show contempt for these people? Without their desire for these basic needs and their kindness to share them he would shurely die, in case that it is really true that he is lacking self interest to acquire them by his own activity and desire, because "loving god" does not produce food.
    yes true . but ramakrishna did not say anything in this respect in the given example !!.

    once he had expressedly said " what are the good uses of money ? it helps in deva-seva( serving gods) , sadhu-seva(serving the holy men) daridra-seva(serving the poor) and finding a shelter , basic clothing and food for oneself . apart from this all else are misuse of money "

    he had also said " dharma is not for empty bellied ! "

    then what was he saying actually ? he was reacting against the preoccupation of vankim with these basic activities . these activities are essential to ensure the sustainence of the body which can then be put to god realization . they are the means . but for some , like vankim in this example it becomes the goal . food ==== restuarant , dinners , banquets . shelter = bunglows , garden houses , clothing == expensive clothing etc .

    here the basic ammenities have turned to goals in life . this is what has annoyed ramakrishna .

    and vankim wasnt even speaking of shelter of clothing . the plain words that he used were " eat , sleep and sex " .

    if you feel that eating , sleeping and sex are the cherishable aims of human existence i have no problems .
    but to me they are means of human existence , not the goal .

    the goal of human existence remains god realization , irrespective of whether i succeed in this birth or not .


    by the way , when ramakrishna speaks of bhakti bhava he means realiziations too . he often used these words and others like 'ishwar darshan' , interchangebly .

    thats it ! pranaam .
    Last edited by sambya; 01 July 2010 at 10:50 AM.
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

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    Re: Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

    Quote Originally Posted by sambya View Post
    as regards the purusharthas , i still believe that realization is the ultimate end word of it . nothing equals the desire to realize god , be it through path of bhakti or of gyana . judging by circumstancial evidence found in hindu scriptures i also think that moksha remains the ultimate goal . each human was advised to strive for moksha as per his individual capacity -- the adhikaari bheda . but the end goal was fixed in hindu society . all other goals converged in the struggle for self realization .



    thats it ! pranaam .
    Hello sambya ji,

    From my past experience, I can say that few advaitins and vaishnavas are hell bent on guiding everyone to whatever they think as ultimate thing. I believe there is no hurry, time will direct everyone to moksha, if any one is interested in 'finding food , sleep , protection and sexual life', ramkrishna ji should not make fun of others. In rig veda there is a conversation between sage agastya and his wife lopumudra, I think even they accept kaam and dharm as normal part of living, and absolute part of human existence. Even in epics you see so many people getting birth again and again, I don't think seeking moksha is ultimate purpose for everyone, but only for people who want it.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

    Quote Originally Posted by sambya View Post
    well , i have presented the facts as it is . its upto to you to view them in whichever way you like .

    for me i still dont see any mistake with ramakrishna . the saint had a childlike nature , far from hypocrisy and self glorification . he said whatever came to him natrually . he was not rude , never impolite . but never a hypocrite . his rural so called unsophisticated ways might not suit to many . but it cant be helped . facts remains a fact . to me sophisticated social interaction as we see in a typical city life is actually indirect hypocrisy and hidden diplomacy . the statement of ramakrishna may appear as rude since we will be judging him by our standards -- namely western influenced sophisticated social mannerisms which teaches us not to speak out harsh truth and carry a plastic smile on face . such things were not known to him , more so due to his spiritual nature . he had no one to appease and no one to hate .

    i dont blame vankim either , since he was an author not a sadhak in the first place . but perhaps after having a long discussion on the temporal nature of this world etc he should have been a little more carefull while answering .

    as regards the purusharthas , i still believe that realization is the ultimate end word of it . nothing equals the desire to realize god , be it through path of bhakti or of gyana . judging by circumstancial evidence found in hindu scriptures i also think that moksha remains the ultimate goal . each human was advised to strive for moksha as per his individual capacity -- the adhikaari bheda . but the end goal was fixed in hindu society . all other goals converged in the struggle for self realization .

    by the way , when ramakrishna speaks of bhakti bhava he means realiziations too . he often used these words and others like 'ishwar darshan' , interchangebly .

    thats it ! pranaam .
    If Moksha is perceived as an aim or goal that an individual can or even should desire how can anything good come from that? Since aversion and desires are the cause of avidya and ego how can cultivating a desire and striving for a goal be the cause for moksha? And what one is striving to achieve, is not even a real existing goal, it always remains only a personal limited idea or illusion about what moksha could be, based on descriptions. So how can one desire something which one does not know anything experiental about? Looking for a phantom of moksha that is a personal intellectual and emotional and therefore limited concept but usually conceived so insubstantial that is evading your grip , has destroyed the life of many people. Following ones svadharma is the aim moksha only a result, a siddhi, maybe you wouldn´t even like it if you eventually reached it, who knows?
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 01 July 2010 at 11:25 AM.

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    Re: Even Brahamans ate meat before jainism!

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    Hello sambya ji,

    From my past experience, I can say that few advaitins and vaishnavas are hell bent on guiding everyone to whatever they think as ultimate thing. I believe there is no hurry, time will direct everyone to moksha, if any one is interested in 'finding food , sleep , protection and sexual life', ramkrishna ji should not make fun of others. In rig veda there is a conversation between sage agastya and his wife lopumudra, I think even they accept kaam and dharm as normal part of living, and absolute part of human existence. Even in epics you see so many people getting birth again and again, I don't think seeking moksha is ultimate purpose for everyone, but only for people who want it.

    hi isavasya .

    i agree with you that a few sages are indeed hellbent on forcing others to strive for moksha .

    again i will qoute ramakrishna himself to clarify his stand on this issue !

    ramakrishna said " when you have an injury its unwise to forcefully try and tear the scab from the wound . that results in bleeding and pain . when it dries off completely it would fall off naturally . no one should hurry in path of god . do what naturally comes to you ."

    at another time he said " mother cooks different items with the same foodstuff for different children , each to their liking . she knows what suits whom best . "

    personally he would instruct each one as per their own adhikaar . and he would never rush anyone . but he would be very particular to ensure that the end result remains god realization . he advised people to do what they do , but with the emotions turned towards god so that they too can reach the highest level gradually .

    and he also said " having slow vairagya is not good . longing for god should be intense . that brings about realization . evryone should pray to god for that intense renuciation "

    so we can see his perspective on the topics --- he advised people to stay on one's own path and yet devote some of him to god . and at the same time he advised each one to pray for intense vairagya and bhakti .

    here too ramakrishna is NOT makin fun of others . he is just criticizing the outlook which places eating sleeping an sex as the aim of your life . they are not the aims . they are the means to sustainence . it is quite simple !!!

    kaam IS a part of normal human existence . but kaam is not the aim of normal human existence . got it now ?

    artha and kama temporal or illusionary ( from veiwpoints of dvaita and advaita respectively ) . desire of moksha also is material and within the scope for maya . but moksha in itself is beyond maya . its the only truth . our hindu way of life is designed in such a way that it encourages each individual in this path of self realization according to his own limits , by following his swadharma . a grihasta is supposed to renounce to sannysa in pursuit of truth . in olden days kings ( even historical kings like chadragupta maurya etc ) renounced after passing their kingdoms to their sons . monarchs bowed in reverence before sages . why do you think this is ? because the end goal of human birth was self realization . everyone was encouraged to think about the nature of truth in his own capabilities . so that in due time they all attain moksha . moksha is not something that can be obtained in one birth . its a gradual evolving process .

    having said that , shastras also say that only a very few people will ever strive for realization . this is how the creation works . but that doesnt mean that the goal of human birth changes . and specially when someone has realised the sweetness of god wouldnt he want to share it with all others around him .

    now its upto the people whether they accept or reject his invitations .

    ramakrishna was doing just that . he directed every people he met( which i think is very natural and expected of a sadhu) to turn to god inwardly so that in due time they all have a taste of that sweet rasa .

    i will give a story of ramakrishnas mouth before i end .

    " there are three classes of gurus. like the doctors -- uttam vaidya , madhyam vaidya and adham vaidya . the adham(worst) doctor asks his patient to have the medicine and leaves . the madhyam(better) doctor comes back to ask his patient whether he is taking the medicine in due time . the uttam(best) doctor not only comes back but also forces the medicine down his patients throat . it is he who has the most concern for his patients "

    we are all suffering the bhava roga -- the disease of materialistic existence.
    na kAshthe vidyate devo na shilAyam kadAchana
    bhAve hi vidyate devas-tasmAd-bhAvam samAcharet

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