Christianity & Me

[sanjaya]

It is amazing that you think you are clairvoyant and can read hearts. It just so happens that you are totally incorrect. Proselytism is not a sin. It is an expression of love. If you view it as a sin then it appears that you are opposed to being loved. For a person who hates, love is an offense.

You accuse ByronMorrigan of mind-reading (i.e. claiming that you have hate in your heart). But your claim is equally unverifiable. At the end of the day, no one really knows what is in the Christian missionary's mind, except for that missionary, and God. Maybe missionaries do proselytize out of love, and maybe they do so out of hate. My guess is that it varies from Christian to Christian. What we can say for certainty (well, with as much certainty as you possess) is that proselytizing is a sin. Remember, no one here is an atheist; we can point to an omniscient and omnipotent God as the source of all moral law, and can define good and bad from God's point of view. The only question is as to which religion accurately represents God's views on morality. To us, proselytizing is a sin. It's an interference with one's personal devotion to God. Like you, we believe that there is a right and wrong way to worship God. For example, no Hindu would offer beef as prasadam. But unlike you, we don't believe it is our dharma to correct others' behavior. Just as you say proselytizing is not a sin, we have an equally valid basis for saying that it is indeed a sin.

When I say "equally valid," I of course don't mean that both our claims are simultaneously true. What I mean is that both arguments logically follow from our starting assumptions. We assume the theology of Hinduism, you assume Christianity. Can you give me a compelling reason to believe you over Hinduism?

My issue is not over who she hates but the source of her hate. I don't think there is any way to separate Christians form Christianity. However there can be some so called "Christian" practices with which I would take issue.

For instance I hate terrorism. I love the terrorist and try to dissuade him from his actions but what he does is terrible. However I am not so absurd as to hate Islam because terrorists have misconstrued their religion.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Your statement about Islam seems to suggest that you can separate Muslims (Christians) from Islam (Christianity). Which is it?

Having said all this, it's difficult to disagree with Devotee's comment that Christians are disguising hatred with love. Belief that non-Christians are going to hell seems to breed hatred of them. And I'm not just pulling this out of a vacuum. This is the very ethic of the Inquisitions, whereby people were tortured to the point of conversion. The logic seems to be that extracting a confession of faith will save the person's soul, and is thus loving. But the infliction of violence on the individual suggests hatred. The Inquisition made its way to India, where Christians attempted to extract such conversions from Hindus. You'll have a hard time convincing us that this is loving.

While I agree with Byron's charge of spiritual terrorism, I will say this much: spiritual terrorism is infinitely preferable to real terrorism. Christians over the centuries have evolved for the better. I'll take the world's supply of evangelical Christians over a handful of inquisitors. That said, I think that both forms of terrorism stem from the same belief in the eternal condemnation of non-Christians. You want to save us from this torment, and then turn on us and become angry when we reject your supposed gift, i.e. when we spurn your love.

But maybe it's unfair to bring up ancient history, so here's a modern example. Listen to the Christian protestors' denunciation of Hinduism during Rajan Zed's historic Hindu prayer in the U.S. Senate, and tell me if such an act is loving towards Hindus (I'm guessing you'll agree it's not loving). Then tell me why the protestors' actions are not in agreement with Christian teaching. Seems to me like Joshua demolishing the idolaters' golden demons.

[Ramakrishna]

At the end of the day, no one really knows what is in the Christian missionary's mind, except for that missionary, and God. Maybe missionaries do proselytize out of love, and maybe they do so out of hate. My guess is that it varies from Christian to Christian. What we can say for certainty (well, with as much certainty as you possess) is that proselytizing is a sin.

Very true. I have said it before on here (can't remember the exact thread), but there definitely are different mindsets the Christians have when they are out to convert. It's difficult to decide which one is worse. There are Christians who convert out of "love" and they truly feel that way. At that point they have become so brainwashed and delusional that they really feel like they are doing it for the best. Then there are Christians who really do it out of hate, and they know it, but they disguise it under love. Really, they just do it to feed their superiority complex, and to confirm their belief that they are right and anyone who disagrees with them is eternally damned.

I used to think the second mindset is more common, but I am not so sure anymore. At this point there probably are a good amount of Christians out there who have become totally brainwashed and completely delusional that they truly believe what they are doing is out of "love".

These are the two mindsets in a nutshell, and they both are wrong. Proselytizing is sinful, no matter what the reason or mindset behind it is.

Jai Sri Ram

[Sudarshan]

It is amazing that you think you are clairvoyant and can read hearts. It just so happens that you are totally incorrect. Proselytism is not a sin. It is an expression of love. If you view it as a sin then it appears that you are opposed to being loved. For a person who hates, love is an offense.

Proselytism without realizing the Truth is a case of blind leading the blind. Beleiving in something and realizing it are quite different. You must know the Truth beyond the books to be eligible to proselytize. You may love someone but if you are not sure of the Truth, you may accidentally mislead him even though it was not your motive. So leave each person to find the truth in his own way and keep away from him unless he approaches you for instruction. Proselytism is a kind of spiritual prostitution as it trespasses into the spirituality of another person and may lead him down the wrong path. Going door to door and preaching what you have not yet realized is wasting of one's own time that can be used for self improvement and spiritual progress. Proselytism is a total waste of time for both the teacher and the taught.

[PARAM]

I do not make fun of Christianity, but I have to accept what the truth comes

There is a joke about Muslims and Christian, it is funny and sad but true (at least I think)

A Hindu scholar after visiting the temple, went back to home, he open the internet and started checking Muslims and Christian site. A friend of the scholar came by, and seeing him on Anti Hindu site, he angrily shouted -'What you are doing? Is this what you think is right, those sites are filled with hatred against Dharma and still you have account there, and you had no objection for this.'

To this the Scholar said -'Well, my dear friend, I used to visit Hindu related sites, but there I found that Hinduism is under attack, and Hindu hearts either mock on others or speak too much but did nothing. Now I am on these sites, there I read that Hindus own everything, media and government are under the control of Hindu organisations.
I know all this is lie just to misguide the World, but this news give me mental peace.'

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: Post 12 by Jaggin mainly to aggravate.
Post 13 to 24 - Responses to the aggravation.

Mission accomplished.

Aum Namasivaya

[sanjaya]

Vannakkam: Post 12 by Jaggin mainly to aggravate.
Post 13 to 24 - Responses to the aggravation.

Mission accomplished.

Aum Namasivaya

I'll admit it. Perhaps I may have made a less than productive use of my time...

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Sanjaya: Hey, I got suckered into it too. Thou are not alone vit ze vastink of time. Unfortunately, in my retirement, I have more time to waste. I sincerely hope next time he comes on, he just gets ignored by all of us. I shall try to remember, but you know how that goes.

Aum Namasivaya

[Adhvagat]

Proselytism without realizing the Truth is a case of blind leading the blind. Beleiving in something and realizing it are quite different. You must know the Truth beyond the books to be eligible to proselytize. You may love someone but if you are not sure of the Truth, you may accidentally mislead him even though it was not your motive. So leave each person to find the truth in his own way and keep away from him unless he approaches you for instruction. Proselytism is a kind of spiritual prostitution as it trespasses into the spirituality of another person and may lead him down the wrong path. Going door to door and preaching what you have not yet realized is wasting of one's own time that can be used for self improvement and spiritual progress. Proselytism is a total waste of time for both the teacher and the taught.

Om Tat Sat

[RVR]

I wish we ignore the missionaries and their agents.

In spite of Muslim and European invasions, India continues to be a Hindu majority country with secular outlook which I am sure will continue in the future also.

Population of Christians in India is hardly 2.34% in spite of enormous money spent on Proselytizing and exploiting vulnerable sections of Indian society.

Before British invasion, India was one of the richest countries on earth. I am sure India will become a richest country on earth in the current century. Muslim rule has not affected Indian prosperity but British/European rule has made India a poor country.

Let us ignore the missionaries and build a prosperous India.

All the best