In India, Castes, Honor and Killings Intertwine

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste,

Here is an article from the New York Times about the continued practice of caste discrimination and honor killings in India. I've read that honor killings have gone down in the past century or so, but obviously it is still a prevalent problem, especially in northern states. Prime Minister Singh as well as the Supreme Court are pushing for tougher penalties for honor killings, and hopefully there will be some real action soon.

Does anybody know where in any of the Hindu scriptures it says that intercaste marriages are not allowed, or even that they are punishable by death? The article never gives details as to where exactly in Hinduism those beliefs are found, but rather focuses on the father of the girl who was killed, and how he said that such marriages are against Hindu beliefs which are thousands of years old.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/wo...nted=1&_r=1&hp

Jai Sri Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

deleted

[harekrishna]

Namaste,

Does anybody know where in any of the Hindu scriptures it says that intercaste marriages are not allowed, or even that they are punishable by death? The article never gives details as to where exactly in Hinduism those beliefs are found, but rather focuses on the father of the girl who was killed, and how he said that such marriages are against Hindu beliefs which are thousands of years old.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/wo...nted=1&_r=1&hp

Jai Sri Krishna

RamaKrishna Jee -

Today's caste system in India (ostensibly coming out of Varnas) is a deformed system. People who kill on the basis of inter caste marriage are murderers, and should be punished like that.

We have had lots of discussion on caste system. In Shrutis (ie Vedopanishad), there is no support for caste system. Upanishad like Vajra Shuchika talks specifically against assigning occupation (or caste) on the basis of birth. It is only on the basis of Karma and Guna that one chooses an occupation.

I believe over the years, incompetent people have created such a system, where by manipulating the Shastras they have created among themselves a false sense of superiority. These things are not at all supported by Sanatana Dharma. These actions are a blot on Dharma. Unfortunate thing is that, in NY times, this type of behavior is being directly related as something that is coming directly out of Hindu Shastras, their traditions.

HariH Om!
HareKrishna

[MahaHrada]

R Unfortunate thing is that, in NY times, this type of behavior is being directly related as something that is coming directly out of Hindu Shastras, their traditions.

NY times is right sagotra marriages are not allowed according to the Dharma Shastras or Smriti, you cannot say that only Shruti is the Hindu Tradition and Smriti doesn´t belong to it, but as far as i know there is no call for murder, but other punishments or prayaschitta. Though i must say in some cases of illegal relationsships there are drastic, barbaric, life endangering punishments recommended, whether they have been really carrried outor not i have no idea.

[Ramakrishna]

NY times is right sagotra marriages are not allowed according to the Dharma Shastras or Smriti, you cannot say that only Shruti is the Hindu Tradition and Smriti doesn´t belong to it, but as far as i know there is no call for murder, but other punishments or prayaschitta. Though i must say in some cases of illegal relationsships there are drastic, barbaric, life endangering punishments recommended, whether they have been really carrried outor not i have no idea.

Namaste MahaHradaji,

Just to clarify, you are saying that the Dharma Shastras call for punishments for intercaste marriages, but not as severe as murder? Do you know where I can find these Dharma Shastras online?

Jai Sri Krishna

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste,

It seems like honor killings in India are getting a lot of attention from the media lately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Ul2...os=KthoMozzfKE

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapc...ngs/index.html

It is interesting to see how exactly the media portrays these so-called honor killings as pertaining to Hinduism. The Youtube video says that these killings are the results of a "fundamentalist interpretation" of Hinduism.

Thoughts, anyone?

Jai Sri Krishna

[MahaHrada]

Namaste MahaHradaji,

Just to clarify, you are saying that the Dharma Shastras call for punishments for intercaste marriages, but not as severe as murder? Do you know where I can find these Dharma Shastras online?

Jai Sri Krishna

Namaste Ramakrishna,

Not intercaste, but same gotra marriage are prohibited. Whereas the punishment for alliances with a mothers´s sister are severe and deadly (amputation of the sexual organ) sagotra marriage can be expiated by giving cattle and performing a threefold prajapatiya, other dharmashastras ask for performance of chandrayana.

10. On cohabitation with a mother's sister, it is requisite
to cut off the male organ ; but if it has been done unwittingly,
the sinner must perform a double Chandrayana. He
must give ten couples of cattle, each couple to consist of a
female and a male, as fee : this is the expiation as declared
by Parasara.
11. On sexual union with a father's wife, or a near relative
of the mother, or a brother's daughter, or the preceptor's
wife, a son's wife, or the wife of a brother, or the wife
of a brother of the mother, or any woman of the same gotra,
a three-fold Prajapatya is the expiation prescribed ; a couple
of cattle is the fee to be given. Thus the sinner undoubtedly
gets rid of his sin.

Parashara smriti online:

http://ia301515.us.archive.org/1/ite...SmrithiPdf.pdf

Other Dharmashastras forbid sagotra marriages and the commentaries also describe punishments.

Manu Smrit chap. III, Verses 5, 8 and 9 (Verse 5)
She who is not a sapinda of the mother and she who is not a sagotra of the father is recommended to the twice-born for being selected for wife.

Baudhayana in his Dharma-Sutra declares that a sagotra wife should be abandoned as far as sexual life is concerned, but should be protected like mother. When sagotra marriage results in an issue, the issue would belong to Kasyapa gotra and the father would be purified by a Krichchhra penance of three months. The views of Gautama on this subject were extremely strong. However, during the Sutra period, the prohibition against sagotra marrige on the whole was rather half-hearted. It was at the beginning of the Christian era that sept exogamy grew more and more rigid. Medhatithi, the first great commentator on Manu, deals with the subject at great length, while Mitakshara adopts the same rigid view about sagotra marriages and holds that those marriages are absolutely void.Yajnyavalkya in his Smriti deals with this topic thus:

Chapter III, verse 52:
He with the celibacy not broken should marry a girl of good signs, not belonging to others, beautiful, not of a sapinda relationship and younger then himself.
Chapter III, verse 53:
She should be healthy, should have brothers, should not have the same gotra and pravara and should be five degrees removed from the mother and seven degrees from the father.

(www.indiankanoon.org/doc/329277/)

[sm78]

Just to bring things into perspective, honour killing is a phenominan which is predominantly in the NW India and Haryana in particular - a place whose customs among hindus is heavily Islamised. It is unheard of in East or South india, inspite of rigid caste system. Inter caste marriage in general will lead to at most ex-communication even among the most superstitious.

Smriti as MahaHrada pointed out generally does not look kindly to inter caste and swa gotra marriage -- but presecription varies widely as he himself has pointed out. I don't think its ever death. Finally the term honour killing is itself a little contradictory from smriti point of view where the sin is not following the duty and not dishonour. Dishonour is a very Islamic concept which has crept into parts of hindu society.

Finally the people who carry do these things are the last persons to have any idea of what scriptures say in the matter. But that's common to every place...

[Eastern Mind]

deleted

[MahaHrada]

Vannakkam:

I was watching a news item on it just yesterday on our local ethnic channel. The story was more about a rights advocacy group and the barriers they face in attempting to create change. The statistics were around 5000 murders world wide of which about 1000 were in India.

Direct spouse to spouse abuse I believe is just as prevalent as family honour killings, and that goes across all cultures and strata. Just yesterday while driving home from temple, I witnessed a vicious argument in the car just next to me, because their back window was open. He was threatening physical abuse when they got home.

The western news media has this 'looking outside' problem rather than looking inside at their own country. There was another story on Haiti as it's now been exactly 6 months since the earthquake. The US government pledged a billion. So far 30 million only has been spent.

I think this 'looking outside for problems' is a syndrome that individuals also have. In my earlier years of marriage, when one or both of us was tired, some guy probably drove by my car and witnessed verbal abuse from me as well. And so the world turns ..(karma).

Aum Namasivaya

Dear EM

I think what you call spouse to spouse abuse that goes across all cultures and strata cannot at all be compared to the way woman are mistreated, abused, tortured and killed in islamic societies, backed by religion and in the name of honour and family traditions. Sadly also in Hindu society there are communities where lynch justice and violence in order to maintain traditions is praised, there are not only many reported cases of repression and violence w.r.t. marriages and wrong choice of partners , but also witch hunts and murder which are acts that do not go across all cultures but are today happening only in a few cultures besides Hinduism these are societies dominated by tribal religions, animism and last not least Islam. The last witch hunt that ended with murder happened a few hundred years in the past in the west, same goes for honour killings because of a wrong choice of a partner, people in the west today are maybe shunned by their parents and friends, or they are disinherited for marrying the wrong person or mobbed in other ways, but not killed. Of course except muslims living in the west that still engage in honour killings and usually become furious and don´understand why it is possible that they are punished like a plain murderer, which is unthinkable in muslim countries.