The only type of Islam that I respect alot

[Kumar_Das]

Namaste,

I am an ardent believer in criticising anything as much as I want to, if it done legitimately

- to illustrate what is unacceptable and why
- to reinforce what is proper

I am highly critical and have an aversion towards islam - and for very good reasons!

Unlike other Hindus, whom I consider to be simply apathetic or cowardly. (This depends, most will think "who cares about those mlecchas? its like a dog barking at the sun. its spit is wasted, and it only humiliates its ownself. because the spitoon falls right back at its face.")

I think that if all this happens, then surely it is worthy of using for enlightenment.

Why?

We cannot scrutinize what is internal effectively because our own reality is based upon what we project into ourselves from the external.

So we can make use of what is external. Because it is easier to be critical of what is external. We can take those criticism, learn from them and apply the same standards all the time - including for our own sadhana.

Thats the only way are to deal with this sort of thing. You have to think that messed up people are for a good reason, to show how we are not supposed to be.

Now back on topic,

Sufism is something I can respect. Many muhammadans consider it to be kuffar because it strays from typical muhammadanism.

there are three good things about them

• intense devotion (what we call Bhakti)
• the mere thought that God is Omniscient / Is a witness over all things and submission to God through that in every moment
• during the rule of the Caliphate, the islamic society had become highly materialistic, so they became ascetics and turned away from sense-gratification and spent the rest of their lives contemplating about God (such noble souls!)

[sm78]

As far as I know, sufism is not a black and white topic. The strain of fundamentalism varies from sect to sect within the sufi movement, and historically in this continient sufism served more as a bridge to spread islam and fundamentalism.

[Kumar_Das]

As far as I know, sufism is not a black and white topic. The strain of fundamentalism varies from sect to sect within the sufi movement, and historically in this continient sufism served more as a bridge to spread islam and fundamentalism.

Well of course, ultimately the sufis were just a tool to convert people. But I think that would apply mostly for the Pakis and Afghanis.

Most Sufis in India were basically wandering ascetics. As far as I know there were Sufi saints that accepted Rama/Krishna as icons of worship.
Hindustani music is heavily influenced by Sufism because the Ustads sang Hindu bhajans. "Bollywood" songs are actually islamic in terms of culture.

[MahaHrada]

Well of course, ultimately the sufis were just a tool to convert people.
Most Sufis in India were basically wandering ascetics.

Sory for being blunt but this is utter rubbish. Early in their history, Sufis developed a powerful military they were the knights of Islam, as well as monks and mystics. Fanatical dervish warriors were the special forces of every Islamic army from the 13th century through the end of the 19th. Even today many of those fighting Jihad in Chechnya are Naqshbandi Sufis.

Muin-ud-din the chisthi whose grave was built on the rubble of a hindu temple was a fanatic jihadi:

Sir-ul-Awliya, the most famous history of the Chishtiyya school written by Khwaja Amir Khurd, another disciple of Nizam-ud-din Awliya, tells the following story: His [Muin-ud-dins] blessed tongue uttered spontaneously, We have handed over Pithora alive to the army of Islam. In those very days, Sultan Muiz-ud-din Sam arrived in Ajmer from Ghazni. Pithora had to face the army of Islam. He was captured alive by Sultan Muiz-ud-din The Khwaja [Muinud-din] was a worker of great wonders. Before he reached Hindustan, all its cities right upto the point of sunrise were sunk in tumult and infidelity and were involved with idols and idolatry.
Everyone among the rabble [Gods] of Hindustan claimed to be the great God and a co-sharer in the divinity of Allah. The people paid homage to stones, sods of clay, trees, quadrupeds, cows and bulls and their dung. The darkness of infidelism had made still more firm the seals on their hearts Muin-ud-din was indeed the very sun of the true faith. As a result of his arrival, the darkness that had spread over this country was dispelled. It became bright and glowed in the light of Islam...
Anyone who has become a Musalman in this country will stay a Musalman till the Day of Dissolution. His progeny will also remain Musalman The people [of Hindustan] will be brought out of dAr-ul-harb into dAr-ul-IslAm by means of many wars.

Sufis have through the centuries combined their inward mystic with the jihad the military defense and supremacist invasion and war of Islam on other nations worldwide. They were mystics and highly trained elite soldiers.

[Kumar_Das]

Okay and you're still sympathetic towards islam?

[sm78]

Sory for being blunt but this is utter rubbish. Early in their history, Sufis developed a powerful military they were the knights of Islam, as well as monks and mystics. Fanatical dervish warriors were the special forces of every Islamic army from the 13th century through the end of the 19th. Even today many of those fighting Jihad in Chechnya are Naqshbandi Sufis.

Muin-ud-din the chisthi whose grave was built on the rubble of a hindu temple was a fanatic jihadi:

Sir-ul-Awliya, the most famous history of the Chishtiyya school written by Khwaja Amir Khurd, another disciple of Nizam-ud-din Awliya, tells the following story: His [Muin-ud-dins] blessed tongue uttered spontaneously, We have handed over Pithora alive to the army of Islam. In those very days, Sultan Muiz-ud-din Sam arrived in Ajmer from Ghazni. Pithora had to face the army of Islam. He was captured alive by Sultan Muiz-ud-din The Khwaja [Muinud-din] was a worker of great wonders. Before he reached Hindustan, all its cities right upto the point of sunrise were sunk in tumult and infidelity and were involved with idols and idolatry.
Everyone among the rabble [Gods] of Hindustan claimed to be the great God and a co-sharer in the divinity of Allah. The people paid homage to stones, sods of clay, trees, quadrupeds, cows and bulls and their dung. The darkness of infidelism had made still more firm the seals on their hearts Muin-ud-din was indeed the very sun of the true faith. As a result of his arrival, the darkness that had spread over this country was dispelled. It became bright and glowed in the light of Islam...
Anyone who has become a Musalman in this country will stay a Musalman till the Day of Dissolution. His progeny will also remain Musalman The people [of Hindustan] will be brought out of dAr-ul-harb into dAr-ul-IslAm by means of many wars.

Sufis have through the centuries combined their inward mystic with the jihad the military defense and supremacist invasion and war of Islam on other nations worldwide. They were mystics and highly trained elite soldiers.

Its rather strange how things can be quite different under the skin. While reading the 11 pricipal teachings of Naqshbandi, it looks like a regular vrata of ascetic sadhus of india, yet it seems the former is the death agent for the later.

What theory do you believe in about the origin of sufis? Do you think they belonged to pre and post islamic mystic cults of middle east who accepted and submitted to the political islam for survival, and in the process became one of the chief soldiers for the dogma?

I think it is this potent mix of mysticsm with a supramacist brutal dogma of islam, makes islam such a potent weapon. Pure materialism could not sustain itself for so long.

[MahaHrada]

One doctrine in Sufism is taqqiya, which means it is allowed for Sufis or muslims in general, to deceive others about their true beliefs to avoid persecution or torture, in Sufism this generally refers to ideas that resemble advaitan monotheism where ones own "self" is identified with "God" or keeping the practice of drinking wine and sex practises secret when among the orthodox. Then there is what Muslims would call "reverse" taqiyya which allows a "kuffar" for example a hindu bhakta to pose as a muslim to avoid persecution, an example would be Kabir.
But as far as i know the majority of sufi sects are militant islamist supremacists, they all strive for world rule of Islam and sharia, only the chisthiyya do not want to be involved in government themselves, but nonetheless many of them support sharia and holy warfare. The majority of Sufis never practised reverse taqqiya in my opinion.

Anyways I think it does not make a lot of sense to try to divide todays sufism or islamic culture into pre or non islamic and islamic elements. Muhammed himself was already combining elements of Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism and his own tribal religion of the region. How much addition or syncretism changes Islam into something different? Apparently mainstream sufism is and was acting so much within the comfort zone of Islam to become a very influential secret brotherhood.

We also would have to generalise and cannot evaluate differences between different localities, schools and epochs when we do so much as even try to arrive at a single clear cut theory of origin.

There are schools of Islam, like some in North Africa, that are concerned with practises of spirit possesion like the Zar cult, and others focus on abilities to withstand fire and weapons that are certainly pre islamic. Many local Islamic sects are syncretistic they combine or have assimilated regional beliefs but they have not become defining elements of Sufism.

The main practise of the sufis is Dhikr, rememberance of Allah by chanting diverse divine names, sometimes connected with breath control and focus on mystic centers in the body, preferably the heart and its diverse levels. There is no idolatry or names of pre or non islamic deities or spirits involved in these central sufi practises and secrets.

Contrasting diverse local muslim sects that may even call on spirits or hindu yoginis with the Naqshibandi who were always a fanatic supremacist, militant islamist political movement we see how hard it is to generalise about Sufism.

But then again not all turkish mystics were strict and orthodox militants pledged to rigid adherence to shariat like the Naqshibandi, the turks also brought forth the Alevis and the Bektashi order who drink wine and follow a mysticism that involves sexual practices, including gay sex. But they were also warriors and involved in islamist politics.
Here you can read how the naqshibhandi view the bektashi as heretics.
http://www.naqshbandi.org/naqshbandi..._bakhtashi.htm

Even in one silsilah like the Chistiyya, you find differences, related to the epoch, while the founder was a fanatic jihadi, later some Chisthi pirs have assimilated Yoga advaitan and Bhakti doctrines, similar to other local sufi traditions from Sindh that were more universalists than fanatical muslims.

Despite these great differences the majority of Sufi traditions, even if they are more liberal than other sects, are certainly part of supremacist Islam, and pledged to establish sharia. Also it is not a persecuted minority but a powerful widespread secret brotherhood, found within shia and sunna, despite the enmity and persecution some sufis may generate, it is not a fringe group of heretic saints and monks only paying lipservice to the main tenets of Islam to survive in a hostile environment, but many are dedicated to support or actively fight in the jihad as elite warriors from the early beginnings of the movement.

The Sufi brotherhoods, especially Naqshbandiyya, have worked as the initiating and maintaining force behind almost all Muslim anti-colonial resistance and independence movements: In the 1800s, they led the resistance against the French in North Africa, against the Russians in the Caucasus, against the British in India, against the Dutch in Indonesia, and against the Turks in the Arabian Peninsula. In the same way, the Sufi brotherhoods have worked as the leading force behind the resistance against the Soviet occupation in Afghanistan, against the Indian occupation in Kashmir, against the Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo, and against Russia in Chechnya, Dagestan, and Tajikistan.

Anssi Kullberg The Background of Chechen Independence Movement

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

Now I am wondering what others think of this Islamist reform group?

http://www.alislam.org/introduction/index.html

There is a reasonably strong community here who arrived when Idi Amin was doing his cleansing in Uganda. I've always found them to be quite reasonable and charitable, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Aum Namasivaya

[MahaHrada]

Vannakkam:

Now I am wondering what others think of this Islamist reform group?

http://www.alislam.org/introduction/index.html

There is a reasonably strong community here who arrived when Idi Amin was doing his cleansing in Uganda. I've always found them to be quite reasonable and charitable, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Aum Namasivaya

These are the Ahmadiyya, a religious sect that are not considered to belong to Islam by other Muslims, not even by the Pakistani Government, they are not allowed to call themselves Muslims and no passports with the designated Religion Islam are issued to them. They are not even allowed to call their meeting places mosques.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

They certainly refer to their own religious structures as mosques.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/sto...ry-mosque.html

I was more wondering how the anti-Islam Hindus here feel about them. Personally, I think they're doing a good thing, and I've heard of a few more 'radical' Moslems cross over to join the group.

Or is it a case of any Moslem is a bad Moslem?

Although others Islamic groups consider them as outsiders, they themselves don't.

Perhaps their community is much stronger here in Canada than elsewhere.

Aum Namasivaya