Avatar - How & Why this phenomenon happens ?

[kallol]

1. How do we define the Avatar from the saying of Krishna - Whenever there is a depletion of Dharma and Adharma rules, I will come in those eras to establish the dharma again and again ?

2. How do we connect it to the cycles of birth, karma and the mind (as the super power needs a body to work through this change)

Let us discuss this. I have some thoughts on this but again from scientific point of view which I will provide later.

Love and best wishes

[kallol]

yada yada hi dharmasya

glanir bhavati bharata

abhyutthanam adharmasya

tadatmanam srjamy aham

paritranaya sadhunam

vinasaya ca duskrtam

dharma-samsthapanarthaya

sambhavami yuge yuge

This was said by Krishna. How do we explain this ?

My understanding :

As the physical world (both manifested and un-manifested) follow certain rules for any of the actions (some discovered and many undiscovered), similarly the combination of the physical (aparaprakriti) and paraprakriti follows certain rules.

Which can be

1. constant pull towards permanent form (both un-manifested) which results in life and death (manifestation & un-manifestation) at all levels. It is like pendulum.
2. Maintaining the balance both in the manifested and in the un-manifested for maintaining equilibrium.
3. Evolution rules : space, stars(fire), earth, water, air, plant, herbivorous animal, carnivorous animal, human (or similar), .......;
4. etc.

As we understand that there is no direct intervention of God and every action or creation is out of our past karma. The karma phals are as per the rules set and the results are what we experience at present.
Now then how do we define the phenomenon of Avatar.

The rule of Balance comes here. If negativity becomes majority that has to be balanced by a few positive souls, then a few or one of them would need to have a huge positivity to balance.

I will take two similes we find in the physical world.

1. There is ionization of atoms happening now and then. These ions get neutralized over a period of time through acquiring suitable compatible partner. It can be another ion or electrons, etc. This phenomenon happens in the atmosphere continuously but without major notice.

Now what happen if there is a sudden cloud of ions gathering. This creates a huge imbalance in the system and depending on the threshold limit, this does not wait to be neutralized but generates a huge lightning to break the barrior and bring in balance in the system. The power of such phenomenon and the power of normal neutralization is totally different.
2. Second example can be the tsunami. In tsunami, the sea recedes and the level of the sea comes down apparently. The general level of the vast sea comes down. Only to generate a 10 story height tsunami. So when after an earthquake, we see the sea level going down and the sea line receding much beyond its normal ones, then we know that there is a tsunami coming. And thereafter the balance comes back and the sea level is back to normal.

The same principle is valid for the case of Avatars also.

The mind reflects the turbulence of the cosmos which in turn drives the energy. The minds may have body or may not. These minds are all around, which we call souls. Souls are nothing but minds in the environment of consciousness. These minds which fill the space are the points of energy drivers. In cases of minds without body the state of the mind or the excited potential remain constant whereas the minds with bodies have the capability to alter the state of the mind. Humans, being at the top of the evolution ladder, have the biggest capable minds and the biggest capability to alter the status.

So the potential changes brought by the minds with bodies, particularly humans, may alter the overall state of the excited state. Now this state also has a threshold limit beyond which it brings in a corrective or balancing action. This corrective or balancing action is carried out by a suitable mind of that order which takes in a body, which is suitable for the purpose, to deliver the balance. This phenomenon (body with this super mind) is called Avatar. Avatars are generally the Change Agents who comes to change certain deficiencies or deviations. This can be at society level, state level, country level or mankind level or total ecosystem level. They come with a mind, which can make best use of the body and also maximize the consciousness content. Minds clogged with egos, anger, desire, envy, etc have limited capabilities of holding consciousness.

The phenomenon of Avatar is rule based and automated. Based on the need for corrective action it happens to bring in the balance. And this is bound to happen again and again as humans are blind to what they are doing and mostly deviate from the expected path.

Love and best wishes

[Adhvagat]

Kallol, sometimes my feeling-oriented mind craves for logic (in order to balance itself) and your explanation provided me this.

Thank you for sharing your view!

[Onkara]

Namaste Kallol
You share some deep thought here.

My personal opinion is that an Avatar cannot be limited to a body with a super mind. Nonetheless an Avatar appears to be a body with a mind and we take it to be similar to ourselves. As the mind is a part of the parkriti itself and is influenced by gunas, it risks falling "victim" to desire, anger, lust etc. This would imply that the Avatar acts under the influence of gunas, as per the teaching of Sri Kirshna:

There is no entity on earth,
Or in heaven among the gods,
Found devoid of these three gunas,
Born of Prakriti, Arjuna. (Bhagavad Gita 18.40)


(or see post 15 on this page for further thought)

Clearly an Avatar must be more than a body-mind which is influenced by the gunas, if it is to serve a good end and not contradict verse 18.40.

So to undertand this we must be clear that mind does not contain consciousness. Mind is a reflection of the consciousness from which mind has arisen. We know consciousness through the reflection of the mind, that explains the analogy of the mirror. This mind can be clogged with egos, anger, desire, etc, but it does not limit holding of consciousness, as consciousness is always present regardless of mind. The recognition of our consciousness is concealed by these negative phenomena, this is ignorance which conceals the bliss (ananda). We could say, it is mind which moves or is agitated and not consciousness itself.

So how does an Avatar differ to humans? It does not differ to our eyes (or to our minds), it appears to act under the same forces of prarkiti as if it had a mind and desires like us, however it knows itself always as pure consciousness and as such it can maintain the focus and purpose it sets itself. It serves a purpose and it knows that purpose before its outset and it interacts with us (with prarkriti). It takes form as an Avatar to influence prakriti, as it is prakriti which acts on prakriti. This is why the Lord takes form and does not direct from His loka. It is for our grace and the continued interest of His lila that implies an Avatar will come.

[kallol]

Thanks Snip. Good that we have restarted this thought provoking topic.

Some points :

1. You are right in the sense that this body mind complex cannot be absolved of the gunas. However inspite of that we strive to achieve moksha by aligning ourselves to the consciousness where the body mind complex becomes a mere tool for earthly functioning. For us we are striving but for Avatar he starts with that.

All of us strive to become Chess champion Anand or Sachin or Pele / Maradona but Avatar comes with that capability.

I will elaborate a bit more on this in next point.

2. Mind is not a reflection of consciousness but the reflector. This reflector can have the different Gunas which are the dirts and colours. This diminishes the reflected consciousness intensity and thus the ability to utilise the body in the best efficient way. The body remaining the same, utilisation differs based on the charateristics of the reflected conciousness. That is why not all becomes Anand or Mozart or Ramakrishna or Sachin or Pele.

3. Due to the purest of minds without the Gunas (almost) the Avatars become extremely powerful through their efficient usage of the tool / instrument called the body-mind complex. Even in that there are levels. Krishna is supposed to be the highest level (than Rama, than Parashurama, etc).

4. Again by Advaita, there is no seperate God who will decide this phenomenon. God is the superset of all (prakriti and purusha). It is us, who decide the phenomenon of Avatar through our karma. How is this phenomenon explained ? This is what I tried.

5. By itself purusha cannot act and by itself mind cannot act. Even a combination of purusha and mind cannot act by themselve. They need a body to act and that body for avatar is decided based on what is creating the problem and what is the solution.

6. It is the rule of balance which is again derived from permanence to temporary to permanence.

Love and best wishes

[Onkara]

2. Mind is not a reflection of consciousness but the reflector. This reflector can have the different Gunas which are the dirts and colours. This diminishes the reflected consciousness intensity and thus the ability to utilise the body in the best efficient way. The body remaining the same, utilisation differs based on the charateristics of the reflected conciousness. That is why not all becomes Anand or Mozart or Ramakrishna or Sachin or Pele.


4. Again by Advaita, there is no seperate God who will decide this phenomenon. God is the superset of all (prakriti and purusha). It is us, who decide the phenomenon of Avatar through our karma. How is this phenomenon explained ? This is what I tried.

6. It is the rule of balance which is again derived from permanence to temporary to permanence.

Love and best wishes

Hello Kallol
Would you mind elaborating on the ideas I have quoted in bold above, please? I have tried to capture my questions below, hopefully this can be linked back to the original topic following further clarification

1) What are the characteristics of reflected consciousness which make the Mozart or Ramakrishna different or "better" to those who remain unknown to the majority?

2) Who is deciding? Also how is karma influencing our decisions or understanding of Avatars?

3) I am afraid I am not familiar with the context in which this rule of balance from permanence to temporary to permanence is observed.

Thanks!

[kallol]

1. utilisation differs based on the charateristics of the reflected conciousness. That is why not all becomes Anand or Mozart or Ramakrishna or Sachin or Pele.

The intellect, the sense organs and the action organs are like different parts of a highly complicated robotic system. They need to be powered to enable them to function. The fuctioning capability depends on the level of power and the inherited gunas (etc.) from the previous birth. The senses and action organs are lower in the order and are dumb, used only as inputs and output.

However in case of intellect it is different. The power (reflected consciousness intensity) in combination with the inherited karmaphals decide on the level & direction of the functioning & maturing of the intellect. This decides whether one will become Ramakrishna or Mozart or Pele, or etc.

A rudimentary example. Say the consciousness light is reflected through the ego, envy, desire, anger, etc glasses which is the charateristics of the mirror (mind). Each of those glass is differently coloured and dirty. Now these reflected light from these charteristics influence the intellect is different way and thus it develops in different way. In case all are almost clear the development is at the best level.

2. It is us, who decide the phenomenon of Avatar through our karma. How is this phenomenon explained ? This is what I tried.

3. It is the rule of balance which is again derived from permanence to temporary to permanence


See the connection : whenever there is a degradation of Dharma I come. This is to maintain the balance.
Again if the whole subject is seen, it has been mentioned that the permanent state of God is the unmanifested prakriti and purusha. the manifestation is very temporary and does not figure in the eternal timeframe.

The constant movement of the prakriti due to the vibration out of the mind creates the unending waves of the prakriti (energy) which beyond a threshold becomes the manifested universe. But again as the waves, though they move up, come down to the permanent state, so is the state of prakriti. Coming back to the equillibrium state - This phenomenon manifests at all level of the evolution. Right from atomic level, to human level to society level to country level. Equllibrium of the minds.

Once there is a cause to upset this equillibrium, there is an effect which tries to nullify the cause. Now as the society degrades and adharma rules, the equillibrium of the combined mental state degrades and there is a local (a relative term) sharp unbalance created. This unbalance gives rise to a balancing act.

We need to always keep in mind that the permanent state is the TRUTH and a single level, the net summation of all minds should conform to that. Now if more minds are negative then a few minds or a single mind has to be hugely positive.

That is why I have given the example of lightening and tsunami.

The whole system is automated and is self intelligent based on certain basic rules.

Whenever we think of God doing something, he becomes karta (which is against advaita) and it becomes dvaita (and not advaita).

Do not know whether this expalination was enough.

We can delve more with more probing questions.

Love and best wishes

[Onkara]

The fuctioning capability depends on the level of power and the inherited gunas (etc.) from the previous birth. The senses and action organs are lower in the order and are dumb, used only as inputs and output.

However in case of intellect it is different. The power (reflected consciousness intensity) in combination with the inherited karmaphals decide on the level & direction of the functioning & maturing of the intellect. This decides whether one will become Ramakrishna or Mozart or Pele, or etc.

Namasté Kollol,
your perspective is different and intriguing to what I am used to, so thanks for helping me keep up

The above prompts me to ask theoretically, how does one increase the intensity of light (consciousness)?

My opinion is that it is through yoga (bhakti/karma/jñana etc) and through the Lord's grace?

Besides the karmaphalas, which our out of our control, would you say there is something more to increasing the intensity which makes one a Mozart or Ramakrishna? Are we destined to be just as we are?

See the connection : whenever there is a degradation of Dharma I come. This is to maintain the balance.


Whenever we think of God doing something, he becomes karta (which is against advaita) and it becomes dvaita (and not advaita).

Do not know whether this expalination was enough.

We can delve more with more probing questions.

Love and best wishes

This is more clear, I missed the quote that the Lord would maintain balance in bold above.

For me, the action is within the Lord and the Lord remains as the inactive onlooker. However because everything is the Lord i.e. non-dual Brahman, even the action occurs within and to the Lord's prakriti.

In other words God acts but His action is only apparent and within prakriti and so has no real effect; it is just a show on a stage. This show is the Dvaita view of jIva and Lord, but it is only a perspective because if we retire to the perspective of Advaita, there I can see both the play (Dvaita) and the whole, which appears to change yet has a changeless foundation.

My point is that the Avatar serves to balance or influence prakriti only. Nothing beyond prakriti is influenced, all cause and effect is in the real of prakriti only and that which lies out side of it goes untouched.

I feel our perspectives are very close, perhaps we would split hairs to disagree, but I remain most interested in your perception of this so please feel free to direct my thoughts with yours

[kallol]

1. The above prompts me to ask theoretically, how does one increase the intensity of light (consciousness)?

My opinion is that it is through yoga (bhakti/karma/jñana etc) and through the Lord's grace?

Besides the karmaphalas, which our out of our control, would you say there is something more to increasing the intensity which makes one a Mozart or Ramakrishna? Are we destined to be just as we are?

It is through right knowledge (SD) we clean the mirror or mind. It is that which increases the illumination or power to the intellect.

You are abosolutely right in the sense that we have some control over karma and not much over karmaphal. At the best we are a party to that.

The different combinations for different skills depend on what faculty they have pursued in the previous births. Much of knowledge behind this is beyond our memory and analysing capability.
Say this birth you are constantly working with the knowledge of spirituality and you focus on that part. May be by next birth - the starting point (at very young age) would be self realisation or enlightenment. So you have a jumpstart and will not need much guidance to understand and assimilate the TRUTH.

Again the thinking and analysing faculty might have been a strong area for Anand (we need to remember these skills are connected also to the base qualities of ego, anger, envy, desire, rajas, tamas, stavik, etc)

But it is sure that We Choose What We Are.

2. In other words God acts but His action is only apparent and within prakriti and so has no real effect; it is just a show on a stage. This show is the Dvaita view of jIva and Lord, but it is only a perspective because if we retire to the perspective of Advaita, there I can see both the play (Dvaita) and the whole, which appears to change yet has a changeless foundation.

There are several POV depending on where one is comfortable. It can be systems level (advaita) or levels below.

However my experience has been that POV of systems provides enough clarity of the different phenomenons and does not need to define it from micro level. Mixing up the phenomenons at micro and macro levels might create variations in the clarity.

Take the mind at the level of God (virtual) and observe the phenomenons. Everything will fall in place. It will be difficult to explain each an everything from micro level but will be easier done at macro level.

I agree with you Snip that your understanding has lots of common points with mine. That is why I love to discuss with you.

Love and best wishes

[Onkara]

Thank you Kallol


Permit me to add a new angle, for the pleasure of exploring this topic, and address it to the phenomenon of Avatars.

I am of the opinion that everything is being determined, be it as small as a baby's yawn or even which people govern and influence our daily social and economic life.

I can make this personal by saying that even my position in life is the result of many factors: gunas, karma and interaction with the world e.g. other's who act under gunas or karma etc.

Note I say "being determined" because it is fluid, like a stream. It changes continually and is open to change. When I need to act, I find I act, and likewise when I witness periods of little change or inactivity in my life, these too I know have come about naturally and I need not be concerned. There is only the impression of "free will" due to time, this is my observation.

So the Avatar is needed to influence us at that level. The Avatar is required in order to trigger the movement which ultimately brings us into balance. This is the "why". However, I said above that everything is already determined, so is the role of Avatar is just another effect arising from the cause of disbalance?

It might seem so unless we subscribe to "free will" and then I must ask, who's free will? This question is the crux of the problem.

The "how" is answered above, it is through the Lord's own creation i.e. prakriti and the universe of atoms, elements, molecules etc which come together to make name and form.