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Thread: Gunas and the Brain differences

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    Talking Gunas and the Brain differences

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    The citation below sort of re-proves what philosophers have known.

    http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N9/culture.html

    It is not about good or bad or lower or higher ---these ideas/concepts themselves arise from gunas, from one's values, from one's preferences.

    But, there are provable differences. The MIT scientists who have done the experiments however, may not themselves agree that the differences are not in the flesh/chemicals of the brains.

    The best part of the report, IMO, is

    Did Easterners actually see differently, at the level of perception, or just think differently? Based on what parts of the brain were activated during the tasks, Gabrieli believes everyone sees the same thing, but may filter it differently.

    “Culture is not changing how you see the world, but rather how you think and interpret.”
    It is about guna conditioning, which is changeable. And, as a corollary, it indicates why the so-called liberal art-culture of the west (which is mostly nothing but glorification of certain physical attributes of skin and flesh) beamed through all media has wreaked and is wreaking havoc in impressionable minds in India. And mostly west is not interested in anything but trade by any means. For example, for America, Saudi Arabia has been a friend always. Wow What a match.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 04 August 2010 at 09:06 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Gunas and the Brain differences

    namaste Atanu.

    If the climate and geography decide the look, the culture and religion (which condition the guNas) decide the outlook.

    For example, I think that the western culture of pre-marital dating and living together, combined with the attitude of independence, often fails to foster a life-long spousal relationship, and results in continuous search for a perfect spouse, with the unnecessary complication of separated spouses and children, which situation in turn is responsible for their growth and behaviour.

    At times of testing situations, the Westerner generally tends to reassure himself/herself, "Everything will be alright", while the Easterner generally feels "Everything that happens is for our good only." Even in daily life, the spouses, parents and children constantly reassure each other with the words "I love you" in the West, while those words are never used in that way in the East. And then, the perception death is scarier in the West than in the East.

    Thus, it is only natural that religious and cultural influences change a person's outlook just as the climate and geography changes the look.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Gunas and the Brain differences

    I read the test and found it okay. That American's "zoom" into a picture to focus on the central idea is understandable. Our cultures are so vastly spread across this country it makes sense.

    This test was done with Americans only...not Native Americans...or Native Hawaiians...or the millions of other cultures lumped into the lable "West".

    Probably because we have the world inside our borders...

    To use a camera analogy, “the Americans are more zoom and the East Asians are more panoramic,” said Dr. Denise Park of the Center for Brain Health at the University of Texas in Dallas. “The Easterner probably sees more, and the Westerner probably sees less, but in more detail.”

    But, I would have to say...that though American's like to "Zoom" into a location and focus on it intensely...it doesn't mean we can't see a larger picture...when shown it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...t_July_2010.29

    Here's the big picture in a link...it would be service.
    America is low on that list of top charitable countries...but it's still there.

    I was raised very independant, no parents to guide me after about age 10. An orphan would have the same upbringing...

    Working parents are the number one cause here of the breakdown of the family. Children raising children makes poor adults. I am home because of this, we sacrifice the second paycheck to make sure adult raises children.

    Overall I know we have cultural differences. I see them all the time in every face I meet here...as I still live in the place which has people from all over the world inside of it.

    But, as others have said...the things which always seems to bring the most difference in a society is how able each citizen is to provide for their children and family.

    For between us both a western mind and the eastern...we do create a more accurate veiw of this world. The wise one always tries to see what the others may see...that way they do not miss a lesson.

    Anyone who has not come here, and wants to get that other angle in person I welcome you to visit Kentucky. Come in the Fall or Spring...as this time of year (August) is 100++ always. A woman died on our beach here in my community because of the heat.

    This is such a vast wilderness...if you keep the television off...and simply focus on the planet below...you may think you are home. It's how I cope...television off...mantra on.

    The planet swirls....the trees sway....and the mother sings...just as in your side of the world<3

    Oh and on the comment about I love you.

    Here we like to show you we love you all the time. We may not see each other again this life and it's wise to tell another how you feel. I know I will see Beloved Ron again...but on his way home from work I tell him and he says it to me. Because this vessel...this now I want to make sure he knows this is our last words of parting always. In Kentucky we always tell another "Take care" and "be careful" when they leave. Even the lowest person will do this. Because we care about you.

    It's not a fear of death, it's acknowledgement of this inevitability. For it's going to be alright, and anything which comes is for our better good...both things are true.
    Last edited by NayaSurya; 05 August 2010 at 06:11 AM. Reason: Spelling and spaces.

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    Re: Gunas and the Brain differences

    Quote Originally Posted by NayaSurya View Post
    Probably because we have the world inside our borders...

    To use a camera analogy, “the Americans are more zoom and the East Asians are more panoramic,” said Dr. Denise Park of the Center for Brain Health at the University of Texas in Dallas. “The Easterner probably sees more, and the Westerner probably sees less, but in more detail.”
    Namaste Nayasurya

    You are correct. There is a story in Mahabharata, how Arjuna pierced the eye of a fish. It was by ultimate concentration. Similarly there are upanishadic sayings, wherein Lord Varuna imparts the following to His son Bhrigu three times: "Brahman is concentration."

    But the Brahman is the whole also. How does one concentrate on the whole? Eventually, Shri Krishna teaches Arjuna "Transcend the mental gunas".

    When some of us say of the difference between a western mind and an eastern mind (in general), it means this. Usually, a western mind (i am not talking of you or EM or Yajvan or any person) will find it very difficult that the mind has to be given up. At the same time there have been great western writers who have highlighted this very truth of Sanatana dharma as absent from the general western religious thought.

    This is only a general aspect but general aspect can be seen to colour the particular orientations also.

    In similar vein, when hinduism talks of varna differences emanating from the Supreme Purusha Himself, westerners, though themselves bound by class differences, imagine the teaching to be discriminative. IMO, the discrimination begins with man's thoughts of separation from the whole though it is not in the natural scheme of things.

    To elaborate further, let me use an example. Once, devotees of a Guru were greatly agitated by apparent criticisms of some of their methods by another Guru and wanted to take some action against the criticising Guru. The present Guru pacified the devotees by saying "Against whom will you take action? There is one purusha alone. The differences you see are due to 'Here and There'. Can you take retaliatory action against the 'here and there'?"

    To many Hindus this is cowardice. But to the Guru who issued the apparent criticisms and who Himself was a Brahmarishi, the other Sage was a living example of the upanishadic truth, beyond all shackles of asrama and beyond 'here and there'.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 05 August 2010 at 10:16 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Gunas and the Brain differences

    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~

    namast atanu (अतनु not thin, not small)


    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    When some of us say of the difference between a western mind and an eastern mind (in general), it means this. Usually, a western mind (i am not talking of you or EM or Yajvan or any person) will find it very difficult that the mind has to be given up.
    I am happy and look forward to giving up the mind in a instant.

    How is this done ?
    Shri Krishna teaches Arjuna "Transcend the mental gunas".
    This is not a difficult task. Then what is? Staying regular and doing it daily so the changes take place in the body and mind. This too is a joy.

    praām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Gunas and the Brain differences

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    I am happy and look forward to giving up the mind in a instant.
    How is this done ?
    This is not a difficult task. Then what is? Staying regular and doing it daily so the changes take place in the body and mind. This too is a joy.
    praṇām
    Namaste Yajvanji

    Sometime back a Management Guru was teaching the class of Maslow's Self Actualization. I was there in the class. The triangle diagram showed Motivation as the foundation. I was impelled to ask the teacher "Where from this motivation?"

    Most of us think that the volitional brain activities and decisions are consciously made by us. But there is very great doubt of this from the angle of Ishwara being omniscient. Suppose, atanu made a choice which Ishwara knew not. That is impossible and that is why Upanishad says: .

    Unmoving, It is one, faster than the mind. The senses cannot reach It, for It proceeds ahead. Remaining static It overtakes others that run. On account of Its presence, Matarsiva (the wind) conducts the activities of being.

    There is something beneath the apparent conscious choice making about which we do not know. We think "I made the choice". We do not know that Ishwara knew/knows before the decision was manifest. Brain research is coming up with some hints.

    http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2083

    The abstract of the above is shown within quotes.

    We all labor under the illusion that our decisions, feelings, and behaviors are all conscious. When we do something, it seems, it is because we wanted to do it. We are very good, in fact, at retrofitting a logical explanation for why we consciously did something.


    And at least for last 30 years, science is coming to know the benefits of conscious submission of the rogue mind (which thinks itself to be intelligent) to the knower MIND -- MAHAT who provides the motivation painlessly. This submission is called meditation.

    I prefer to call it submission.

    Om Namah Shivaya

    It is also my submission here that, in general, eastern minds have an intuitive knowledge that Ishwara predates all of one's decisions and knows of them and their results. This may be for bad or for good. But it is very difficult for the rogue minds to believe from heart that there is actually someone who knows our decisions, actions and results before we know. It is difficult to believe that all this happens in Ishwara's mind before we know.

    Western theology as well as western science has little clue of this.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 05 August 2010 at 09:36 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Gunas and the Brain differences

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast&#233; atanu


    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    And at least for last 30 years, science is coming to know the benefits of conscious submission of the rogue mind (which thinks itself to be intelligent) to the knower MIND -- MAHAT who provides the motivation painlessly. This submission is called meditation.

    I prefer to call it submission.

    Om Namah Shivaya

    It is also my submission here that, in general, eastern minds have an intuitive knowledge that Ishwara predates all of one's decisions and knows of them and their results. This may be for bad or for good. But it is very difficult for the rogue minds to believe from heart that there is actually someone who knows our decisions, actions and results before we know. It is difficult to believe that all this happens in Ishwara's mind before we know.
    Yes, I see your POV and can appreciate this myself. If one has blossomed omniscience to the fullest, which no being could surpass, this is the natural state of iśvara per pata&#241;jali’s yogadarśana.

    I see how meditation is submission. It is my humble opinion this is why people have some difficulty with meditating. They have forgotten how this submission feels, how to do.
    We ( in general) are rago-guna driven ( doers, achievers). When it comes to meditation we think in the same framework. One may think, What must I do , how to leverage the meditation, how to maybe push concentration.
    It is all about being very very simple that meditation allows the mind to settle down and submissively sink into Being.

    Yet it must be noted , this approach is correct for meditation and not so much for the field of action. One size does not fit all.

    praām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Gunas and the Brain differences

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ

    It is all about being very very simple that meditation allows the mind to settle down and submissively sink into Being.

    Yet it must be noted , this approach is correct for meditation and not so much for the field of action. One size does not fit all.

    praṇām
    Namaste Yajvanji

    That is true. One size does not fit all. Yet for the realised there is no all. There is Self.

    A state that comes and goes cannot be the sahaja and imperishable. Below is given teachings of Shri Ramana on 'action in inaction'. The gist is that till the individual persists 'action in inaction' is unrealisable. That does not mean that all have to immediately become like that or that it is possible for all to attain this immediately (same as saying that one size does does not fit all), but at least one should know.


    Karma Yoga
    FromThe Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi
    Edited by David Godman

    Questioner: The Gita seems to emphasize Karma Yoga, for Arjuna is persuaded to fight. Sri Krishna himself set the example by an active life of great exploits.

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: The Gita starts by saying that you are not the body and that you are not therefore the Karta (the doer).

    Question: What is the significance?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: It means that one should act without thinking that oneself is the actor. Actions will go on even in the egoless state. Each person has come into manifestation for a certain purpose and that purpose will be accomplished whether he considers himself to be the actor or not.

    Question: What is Karma Yoga? Is it non-attachment to Karma (action) or its fruit?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Karma Yoga is that Yoga in which the person does not arrogate to himself the function of being the actor. All actions go on automatically.

    Question: Is it non-attachment to the fruits of actions?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: The question arises only if there is the actor. It is said in all the scriptures that you should not consider yourself to be the actor.

    Questioner: So Karma Yoga is ‘Kartritva Buddhi Rahita Karma’ – action without the sense of doership.

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes. Quite so.

    Questioner: The Gita teaches that one should have an active life from beginning to end.

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes, the actorless action.

    Question: If one remains quiet how is action to go on? Where is the place for Karma Yoga?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Let us first understand what Karma is, whose Karma it is and who is the doer. Analyzing them and enquiring into their truth, one is obliged to remain as the Self in peace. Nevertheless even in that state the actions will go on.

    Question: How will the actions go on if I do not act?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Who asks the question? Is it the Self or another? Is the Self concerned with actions?

    Questioner: No, not the Self. It is another, different from the Self.

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: So it is plain that the Self is not concerned with actions and so the question does not arise.

    Question: I see you doing things. How can you say that you never perform actions?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: The radio sings and speaks, but if you open it you will find no one inside. Similarly, my experience is like the space; though this body speaks like the radio, there is no one inside as a doer.

    Question: I find this hard to understand. Could you please elaborate on this?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Various illustrations are given in books to enable us to understand how the jnani can live and act without the mind, although living and acting require the use of the mind. The potter’s wheel goes on turning round even after the potter has ceased to turn it because the pot is finished. In the same way, the electric fan goes on revolving for some minutes after we switch off the current. Prarabdha (predestined Karma) which created the body will make it go through whatever activities it was meant for. But the jnani goes through all these activities without the notion that he is the doer of them.

    It is hard to understand how this is possible. The illustration generally given is that the jnani performs actions in some such way as a child that is roused from sleep to eat eats but does not remember next morning that it ate. It has to be remembered that all these explanations are not for the jnani. He knows and has no doubts. He knows that he is not the body and he knows that he is not doing anything even though his body may be engaged in some activity. These explanations are for the onlookers who think of the jnani as one with a body and cannot help identifying him with his body.

    Question: I want to do Karma Yoga. How can I help others?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Who is there for you to help? Who is that "I" that is going to help others? First clear up that point and then everything will settle itself.

    Question: That means ‘realise the Self.’ Does my realisation help others?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes, and it is the best help that you can possibly render to others. But really there are no others to be helped. For the realised being sees only the Self, just as the goldsmith sees only the gold while valuing it in various jewels made of gold. When you identify yourself with the body, name and form are there. But when you transcend the body-consciousness, the others also disappear. The realised one does not see the world as different from himself.

    Question: Would it not be better if saints mixed with other people in order to help them?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are no others to mix with. The Self is the only reality. The sage helps the world merely by being the real Self. The best way for one to serve the world is to win the egoless state. If you are anxious to help the world, but think that you cannot do so by attaining the egoless state, then surrender to God all the world’s problems, along with your own.

    Question: Should I not try to help the suffering world?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: The power that created you has created the world as well. If it can take care of you, it can similarly take care of the world also. If God has created the world it is His business to look after it, not yours.

    Question: Is the desire for Swaraj (political independence) right?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Such desire no doubt begins with self-interest. Yet practical work for the goal gradually widens the outlook so that the individual becomes merged in the country. Such merging of the individuality is desirable and the related Karma is Nishkama (unselfish).

    Question: If Swaraj is gained after a long struggle and terrible sacrifices, is not the person justified in being pleased with the result and elated by it?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: He must have in the course of his work surrendered himself to the higher power whose might must be kept in mind and never lost sight of. How then can he be elated? He should not even care for the result of his actions. Then alone the Karma becomes unselfish.
    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 05 August 2010 at 11:45 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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