Pre-Marital Sex

[mblova]

This is a subject that i think has a need to be addressed as hindu children, esp first generation americans get older and go to college where the lifestyle changes dramatically. As a college sophomore i always wonder what the "books" say about such acts. The most i can recall is that a man and woman should save themselves for the marriage night for the "suhag".

What do you guys think of pre-marital sex, knowing that many did not grow up in this country, or with the same college atmosphere. Its a decesion that i have to make but i am very curious as to what hindu scripture dictates.


-mblova

[Arjuna]

This is a subject that i think has a need to be addressed as hindu children, esp first generation americans get older and go to college where the lifestyle changes dramatically. As a college sophomore i always wonder what the "books" say about such acts. The most i can recall is that a man and woman should save themselves for the marriage night for the "suhag".

What do you guys think of pre-marital sex, knowing that many did not grow up in this country, or with the same college atmosphere. Its a decesion that i have to make but i am very curious as to what hindu scripture dictates.

Perhaps smriti-shastras prohibit premarital sex for Brahmanas. But for kshatriyas ect it seem to be allowed. We know that for example Krishna had enough sexual relationships before his marriage.

Also, smritis accept a Gandharva type marriage — which is simply sex in love without any rituals and social stuff.

Myself i, as a kaula, think that there should be no restrictions in this field, but education and culture must be there (not conditioning). Suppression of sex never results in any good. And arranged marriage as well.

[mblova]

What i find interesting is as a brahmin, a lot of religious teaching is taught. However they never, and i have never seen an incident where they traverse to the "dark" side and discuss sex, pre-marital sex and so forth. I must say the kama sutra is a hindu scripture and im very curious as to its inception but see how its never discussed as it is a socailly and i would think religiously taboo subject.

also some of the terms you used i am unfamiliar with

smriti-shastras what does this mean? and

Gandharva this also?

how do these terms relate to marriage and so forth.

greatly appreciated!

[orlando]

As far as I know,pre-marital sex is totally forbidden.
I hope that mblova will find interesting the following writings which are taken from the book Dancing with Siva, Hinduism's Contemporary Catechism by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami (1927-2001).
By http://www.himalayanacademy.com/reso...andala-15.html

What Is the Hindu View of Sexuality?
SLOKA 74

The purpose of sexual union is to express and foster love's beautiful intimacy and to draw husband and wife together for procreation. While offering community guidance, Hinduism does not legislate sexual matters. Aum.

BHASHYA

Sexual intercourse is a natural reproductive function, a part of the instinctive nature, and its pleasures draw man and woman together that a child may be conceived. It also serves through its intimacy to express and nurture love. It is love which endows sexual intercourse with its higher qualities, transforming it from an animal function to a human fulfillment. Intensely personal matters of sex as they affect the family or individual are not legislated, but left to the judgment of those involved, subject to community laws and customs. Hinduism neither condones nor condemns birth control, sterilization, masturbation, homosexuality, petting, polygamy or pornography. It does not exclude or draw harsh conclusions against any part of human nature, though scripture prohibits adultery and forbids abortion except to save a mother's life. Advice in such matters should be sought from parents, elders and spiritual leaders. The only rigid rule is wisdom, guided by tradition and virtue. The Vedas beseech, "May all the divine powers together with the waters join our two hearts in one! May the Messenger, the Creator and holy Obedience unite us." Aum Namah Sivaya.

What Is the Relation of Sex to Marriage?
SLOKA 75

Wisdom demands that the intimacies of sexual intercourse be confined to marriage. Marriages that are free of prior relationships are the truest and strongest, seldom ending in separation or divorce. Aum Namah Sivaya.

BHASHYA

When a virgin man and woman marry and share physical intimacy with each other, their union is very strong and their marriage stable. This is because their psychic nerve currents, or nadis, grow together and they form a one body and a one mind. Conversely, if the man or woman has had intercourse before the marriage, the emotional-psychic closeness of the marriage will suffer, and this in proportion to the extent of promiscuity. For a marriage to succeed, sexual intercourse must be preserved for husband and wife. Each should grow to understand the other's needs and take care to neither deny intercourse to the married partner nor make excessive demands. A healthy, unrepressed attitude should be kept regarding sexual matters. Boys and girls must be taught to value and protect their chastity as a sacred treasure, and to save the special gift of intimacy for their spouse. They should be taught the importance of loyalty in marriage and to avoid even the thought of adultery. The Vedas intone, "Sweet be the glances we exchange, our faces showing true concord. Enshrine me in your heart and let one spirit dwell with us." Aum Namah Sivaya.

O man and woman, having acquired knowledge from the learned, proclaim amongst the wise the fact of your intention of entering the married life. Attain to fame, observing the noble virtue of nonviolence, and uplift your soul. Shun crookedness. Converse together happily. Living in a peaceful home, spoil not your life. Spoil not your progeny. In this world, pass your life happily, on this wide Earth full of enjoyment! Shukla Yajur Veda 5.17.

Husband and wife in sweet accord give milk oblations to the Gods and press and strain the Soma. They acquire a plenteous store of food. They come united to the altar. Their rewards never lessen. They do not wander from the Gods or seek to hide their favors granted. Thus they acquire great glory. With sons and daughters at their side, they live a good long span of years, both decked with precious gold.Rig Veda 8.31.5-8

Have your eating and drinking in common. I bind you together. Assemble for worship of the Lord, like spokes around a hub. Of one mind and one purpose I make you, following one leader. Be like the Gods, ever deathless! Never stop loving.Atharva Veda 3.30.6-7.

Unite, O Lord, this couple like a pair of lovebirds. May they surrounded by children be, living both long and happily.Atharva Veda 14.2.64.

Let there be faithfulness to each other until death. This, in short, should be known as the highest duty of husband and wife. So let husband and wife ever strive, doing all their duties, that they may not, separated from each other, wander apart.Manu Dharma Shastras 9.101-2

Now please read what Subramuniyaswamy says in his book Living with Siva, Hinduism's Contemporary Culture.
By http://www.himalayanacademy.com/reso...lws_ch-10.html

Brahmacharya, the yoga of celibacy, is a traditional practice in Saivite Hinduism. It allows the adolescent or young adult to use his vital energies to prepare for a rewarding life, to develop his mind and talents for his chosen vocation. The first of the four stages, or ashramas, of life is actually called the brahmacharya ashrama. Love, including sex, is one of the legitimate four goals of life, according to our religion. Sex is not bad. Its place, however, is properly within the confines of a sanctified marriage. Nor are sex drives unnatural. The goal of the brahmachari and brahmacharini is not to become fearful of sex, but to understand sex and the sexual impulses in a balanced way. During the time of brahmacharya, the goal is to control the sex urges and transmute those vital energies into the brain to gain a great mental and spiritual strength. Yes, this vital life force must be focused on studies and spiritual pursuits. Brahmacharya maintained until marriage, and faithfulness thereafter, helps enable the devotee to merit a good wife or husband, a happy, stable marriage and secure, well-adjusted children.

I agree with Arjuna when he says:

Suppression of sex never results in any good.

In fact sublimation results in good.
Regards,
Orlando.

[mblova]

Hey Bhakta thanks for the response. So what we can conclude is that the texts indicate that a marriage will be better if both individuals are virgins. Now is that the only place sexual activities are discussed or are there other places?

What i find interesting is that sex is such a taboo subject but the kama sutra evolved from hinduism which is very interesting.

anybody else wanna chime in?

[sarabhanga]

For the Brahmana varna there should be no sex outside of marriage, and for the Brahmacarya ashrama there should be no sexual relations.

For anyone who has completed their formal studentship but remains without any formal marriage and with no particular dedication to Brahma, there is no prohibition of anything beyond the basic limits of Yama (which, at the very least, requires Ahimsa).

Manu Smriti, III:

6. In connecting himself with a wife, let him carefully avoid the ten following families, be they ever so great, or rich in kine, horses, sheep, grain, or (other) property,

7. (Viz.) one which neglects the sacred rites, one in which no male children (are born), one in which the Veda is not studied …

20. Now listen to (the) brief (description of) the following eight marriage-rites used by the four castes (varna) which partly secure benefits and partly produce evil both in this life and after death.

21. (They are) the rite of Brahman (Brahma), that of the gods (Daiva), that of the Rishis (Arsha), that of Prajapati (Prajapatya), that of the Asuras (Asura), that of the Gandharvas (Gandharva), that of the Rhashasas (Rakshasa), and that of the Pisakas (Paisaka).

22. Which is lawful for each caste (varna) and which are the virtues or faults of each (rite), all this I will declare to you, as well as their good and evil results with respect to the offspring.

23. One may know that the first six according to the order (followed above) are lawful for a Brahmana [i.e. Brahma (highest), Daiva, Arsha, Prajapatya, Asura, and Gandharva (lowest)], the four last for a Kshatriya [i.e. Asura, Gandharva, Rakshasa, and Paisaka], and the same four, excepting the Rakshasa rite, for a Vaisya and a Sudra [i.e. Asura, Gandharva, and Paisaka].

24. The sages state that the first four are approved (in the case) of a Brahmana, one, the Rakshasa (rite in the case) of a Kshatriya, and the Asura (marriage in that) of a Vaisya and of a Sudra.

25. But in these (Institutes of the sacred law) three of the five (last) are declared to be lawful and two unlawful; the Paisaka and the Asura (rites) must never be used.

26. For Kshatriyas those before-mentioned two rites, the Gandharva and the Rakshasa, whether separate or mixed, are permitted by the sacred tradition.

27. The gift of a daughter, after decking her (with costly garments) and honouring (her by presents of jewels), to a man learned in the Veda and of good conduct, whom (the father) himself invites, is called the Brahma rite.

28. The gift of a daughter who has been decked with ornaments, to a priest who duly officiates at a sacrifice, during the course of its performance, they call the Daiva rite.

29. When (the father) gives away his daughter according to the rule, after receiving from the bridegroom, for (the fulfillment of) the sacred law, a cow and a bull or two pairs, that is named the Arsha rite.

30. The gift of a daughter (by her father) after he has addressed (the couple) with the text, 'May both of you perform together your duties,' and has shown honour (to the bridegroom), is called in the Smriti the Prajapatya rite.

31. When (the bridegroom) receives a maiden, after having given as much wealth as he can afford, to the kinsmen and to the bride herself, according to his own will, that is called the Asura rite.

32. The voluntary union of a maiden and her lover one must know (to be) the Gandharva rite, which springs from desire and has sexual intercourse for its purpose.

33. The forcible abduction of a maiden from her home, while she cries out and weeps, after (her kinsmen) have been slain or wounded and (their houses) broken open, is called the Rakshasa rite.

34. When (a man) by stealth seduces a girl who is sleeping, intoxicated, or disordered in intellect, that is the eighth, the most base and sinful rite of the Pisakas.

36. Listen now to me, ye Brahmanas, while I fully declare what quality has been ascribed by Manu to each of these marriage-rites.

37. The son of a wife wedded according to the Brahma rite, if he performs meritorious acts, liberates from sin ten ancestors, ten descendants and himself as the twenty-first.

38. The son born of a wife, wedded according to the Daiva rite, likewise (saves) seven ancestors and seven descendants, the son of a wife married by the Arsha rite three (in the ascending and descending lines), and the son of a wife married by the rite of Ka (Prajapati) six (in either line).

39. From the four marriages, (enumerated) successively, which begin with the Brahma rite spring sons, radiant with knowledge of the Veda and honoured by the Sishtas (good men).

40. Endowed with the qualities of beauty and goodness, possessing wealth and fame, obtaining as many enjoyments as they desire and being most righteous, they will live a hundred years.

41. But from the remaining (four) blamable marriages spring sons who are cruel and speakers of untruth, who hate the Veda and the sacred law.

[And those four “blamable marriages” are the Asura, Gandharva, Rakshasa, and Paisaka, marriage rites.]

42. In the blameless marriages blameless children are born to men, in blamable (marriages) blamable (offspring); one should therefore avoid the blamable (forms of marriage).

So, for Brahmanas in general, there are six lawful marriages, of which only four are recommended by sages, and according to Manu the Asura rites are also illegal and the Gandharva rites not recommended.

Following Manu’s exclusions, only the Brahma, Daiva, Arsha, and Prajapatya rites are proper for a Brahmana marriage.

For Kshatriyas, however, Manu considers ALL of their marriage rites to be relatively “blamable”, but the Gandharva marriage is the traditional first preference of the Kshatriya varna.

[orlando]

What i find interesting is that sex is such a taboo subject but the kama sutra evolved from hinduism which is very interesting.

It is interesting even to note that this taboo degenerated to a big sexphobia in some hindu traditions.For example some hindus say that masturbation is a sin and that God would be "forced" to punish someone because of masturbations.According to me,such hindus are similar to zelous christians of the medieval age.

[sarabhanga]

DISSIPATION:

Dissipation occurs through excessive talk, and through loss of the vital fluids (which must be transmuted in order to make progress in spiritual life) such as through masturbation or excessive intercourse only for pleasure, with no intention of conceiving a child. ~ Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

[Sudarshan]

It is interesting even to note that this taboo degenerated to a big sexphobia in some hindu traditions.For example some hindus say that masturbation is a sin and that God would be "forced" to punish someone because of masturbations.According to me,such hindus are similar to zelous christians of the medieval age.

A sin must be discriminated from a vice. A sin is an action that harms others mentally or physically and it can be absolved only by experiencing its fruits or by deep prayers of remorse. Bigger sins like murder in a past birth etc cannot be resolved apart from samAdhi or by undergoing the effects.

Activities like masturbation, pre marital sex, prostitution, smoking, drugs etc are not sins, because they do not hurt others. These are addictions which must be given up if one aspires for spiritual growth. These are activities of materialist people who believe that all life ceases to exist at death. Those who believe in after life will certainly give consideration for spiritual pursuit by gradually erasing out these materialistic tendencies that can trap you in samsAra. Any single addiction will ensure that your spiritual progress will remain blocked until you resolve it. All humans have strong material tendencies like these that weigh us down, but we must overcome them to the extent allowed by the prArabdha Karma. The absence of the will power to overcome such weaknessess is a result of fate, that cant help in spiritual progress. That is where the guru can help - motivation to stay away from sin and vice.

Brahmacharya is considered to be a very supreme quality by all religions. Its value is not to be undermined by considering the difficulty of its practical nature. It is universally accepted that proper practice of Brahmacharya leads to mind control and spiritual growth on its own merit. Zealot Christians of the medieval age were certainly more aware of spirituality than the "present day breed of fallen Hindus" who do not even know the fundamentals of religion, and distort it to suit their taste. One swamiji was found advocating that the use of tobacco in large doses can lead to God realization quickly. Did you know what happened? His diciplies grew in big numbers because this religion was easy and fun to follow. Unfortunately, God was not found, but many found cancer. True religion is hard to follow, and takes a certain amount will power to listen to good advice and follow them.

We need not pass judgements on others, but what should we do to ourselves? There cant be much compromise from a personal point of view unless you have planned to continue to exist in samsAra by bowing down to all your own materialistic desires. The desires trap you at every stage and are limitless and exist in all colors and hues - the objective in spiritual growth is to exercise one's will power and channelize these desires slowly towards God. One should first understand what is good and what is pleasant, before such a transition is ever possible. If you convince yourself that good=pleasant always, then there is no room for real growth.

[orlando]

Sudarshan,I really hope that you know that,unlike Sri Vaishnavism,not all hindu traditions say to their followers to "live and act only for the pleasure of the Lord".
Regards,
Orlando.