I had to kill a mouse the other day..

[kiya kabooter]

So, my friend has mice in her house. She tried the sonar wave things that you plug in and they didn't work. She has two dogs who are quite old and get sick easily - she was afraid the mice were going to spread bacteria, germs, etc. which is a valid concern.

She asked me what she should do. I told her that I knew several people who had used Havahart traps successfully and that I was witness to it, as they had me empty the traps because mice gave them the heebie jeebies. I told her that snap traps often don't kill the mice instantly - they often injure them seriously and then they are left there to suffer and die. It is quite traumatic if you are home when it happens, as I can attest to. When I was a teenager my mom put out snap traps and I ended up waking up to the sound of a mouse screaming because it's back was snapped but it was still alive. It was AWFUL and I swore that I would never use one.

Anyway... my friend had this old boyfriend who told her it would be fine - the snap traps would kill the mice, she'd be fine, etc. etc.

A couple days ago, my phone rings and it's my friend, in hysterics. She had woken up to the sound of the mouse screaming. The trap had snapped its belly, with all 4 legs still free, so it was trying to get away. She found it at 5:00 am and she didn't call me crying until 8:30 so it had been suffering a long time. Suffering and panicked.

So I drove over and I killed it for her, by placing it in a bag and holding the bag to my car's tailpipe. Within 1-2 minutes, it had died. This poor mouse was the sorriest sight I had seen in a while. I didn't feel guilty at the time, because I was on auto-pilot and I just knew I had to help this mouse who was in so much pain. I have never killed an animal - I've never even hit one with my car! So I don't know where this came from - this calm, determined ability to do it.

And now I feel weird about it. Intellectually, I know that it was the right thing to do. I wasn't interfering with a natural order - this situation was brought about by human intervention. I felt like if the mouse had a choice, he would want to die and not suffer several more hours first. His death was inevitable.

But now I wonder if I was messing with his karma. What if suffering in this life was to bring him to a higher realm the next time around? In terms of my own karma, I believe intent determines the karmic energy. I was not being malicious or cruel. I could not stand to watch this mouse suffer. But is that selfish? Did I have the right to make that choice? To kill this mouse on *purpose*, knowing I was taking a sentient life willingly?

I still believe it was ok. But I still feel weird. I guess maybe because it was the first time I have killed a sentient being.

The sad thing is, I have a feeling my friend is still going to use the snap traps. I don't want to do this again. It's not my job to make that choice.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam kiya:

At the temple I attend, once upon a time we had mice. it was an older house and in winter they snuck in. A couple of times we found them drowned in ghee or coconut oil right near the altar. Later we put in one of the live traps and took them off about 3 miles for release, as they can return quite a distance. Also with the live traps you have to be fairly quick as they can be little cannibals.

At the temple now, we have ant mounds, wasps, etc. and we try as much as possible to just leave them alone. I have an ant colony on my front yard bordering the neighbours and I see he put the popison to them the other day. So I don't lose sleep over it, but this type of ahimsa practice (small things) is thought provoking. We discussed it on HDF before but I'm not good at finding old threads or I'd point you to it.

Aum Namasivaya

[kiya kabooter]

Thank you for the reply.

I wanted to clarify something - when I said I had never killed an animal before.. you bring up insects.. insects are animals.. so yes, I have killed animals before.. insects.. not sentient (as far as we know!) but like you, I try not to. You mention ant mounds, etc. We have spiders in our house. They're not very big, they're not poisonous, and they are the kind that stay in their webs and wait for food. If we happen to get insects in the house - ants, beetles, etc. they will usually find their way into the webs eventually and then the spider takes care of it for us. In this way, I am able to leave them all be. More and more, I feel awful if I kill a spider or a bug on purpose when it is in the house, so more and more, I don't.

I will try to find the threads you mentioned - I hope I will be able to find them. In my opinion, when you believe any life to be expendable/not important, it reduces your compassion and it is easier to believe that another, more sentient life may not be as important either.

I notice you didn't try to make me feel better by saying "It's ok! You did the right thing!" Come on now!

I know it only matters how I feel about it. I think it was ok.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam kiya;

Here's one: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...ighlight=wasps

Aum Namasivaya

[sunyata07]

Namaste Kiya,

I've been meaning to bring up this topic for some time, but it's been a while since we've had to deal with any rodents or anything like that in a while. No doubt it's a subject that has been brought up time and again here.

Back when I was very new to Sanatana Dharma and had learned all about the significance of ahimsa, I was somewhat sensitive to the idea of preserving life. Being an animal-lover before my study of Hinduism only made things worse. Actually, I was very hypersensitive to the idea - at one point, I would refuse to mow the lawn when my parents asked me to, knowing that inevitably a lot of animals would be killed in the process of keeping the backyard tidy.

I experienced a similar situation with a mouse, but it was the problem was more with the contention with my parents and I about how to get rid of it. My mother was particularly annoyed that night and reproached me endlessly for what she must have seen as my silly soft-heartedness. The poor mouse must have been so frightened by our arguing over what to do about it. In the end, my sheer stubbornness on the topic won out and we got one of those humane mouse traps that only holds them in the container and you can set them free.

In my opinion, when you believe any life to be expendable/not important, it reduces your compassion and it is easier to believe that another, more sentient life may not be as important either.

Yes, this is exactly how I have felt before. If you cannot have heart enough to spare the life of such a small thing like a housefly, how trying it must be to work up understanding and kindness (and then, eventually love) for some other creature, maybe even another human being! I don't know where I heard it, or who exactly it was about, but I remember listening to words of wisdom about ahimsa to sentient beings. It said that the measure of a man's greatness is in observing how he treats those lowliest around him, or those who are - largely - unable to defend themselves (animals, etc.) from the harm done by that person. The man who is kind to even these beings who cannot retaliate, will almost certainly show the same kindness to everyone else around him. I found it is a rough but ready window into understanding a person's capacity for compassion.

[NayaSurya]

One time I had to kill a mouse. An ignorant man had placed glue traps down because they were chewing through the house wires. The creature's whole face was pulling off the bone from the ignorant man's attempts to pull it off. Such pain...and it was senseless. I took a walmart bag tied it off and knocked it one time into the sidewalk. It killed the mouse instantly...putting it out of it's misery. Such is the way it goes...sometimes to save many one must die.

This is a very good thread that has thoughts about killing creatures and the cost.


http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5653

[kiya kabooter]

I don't know where I heard it, or who exactly it was about, but I remember listening to words of wisdom about ahimsa to sentient beings. It said that the measure of a man's greatness is in observing how he treats those lowliest around him, or those who are - largely - unable to defend themselves (animals, etc.) from the harm done by that person.

There are 2 quotes that come to mind that may be what you are talking about, but I can't remember exactly how they are worded. I think at least one of them is a quote from Gandhi. If I come across them (I have a bunch in an animal rights folder on my computer) I'll post them.

Thank you for posting. It's good to talk about it. And I largely agree with you. I can't say I don't swat at flies and mosquitoes when they are in my home though. I don't know how I would be able to even catch a fly to release it! And mosquitoes.. well, maybe this is something to think about, because if a mosquito is on my, I smack it. I have never felt badly about it - largely because from what I have researched, they are not sentient and do not have the nervous system requirements for the sensation of pain.

NayaSurya - thank you so much for posting the link. I will definitely look at it tomorrow when I have a little more time.

[Riverwolf]

I still believe it was ok. But I still feel weird. I guess maybe because it was the first time I have killed a sentient being.

I've heard once that you're not normal if you don't feel something the first time you kill.

You did do the right thing, by my book. If it was that mouse's karma to suffer in order for it to rise in its next life, then I think four hours is sufficient.

[kiya kabooter]

I've heard once that you're not normal if you don't feel something the first time you kill.

This is something that I intend to post about at some point. I'm a pretty open person, and one of the things that led me to Krishna was an abortion experience. It was years ago and it's something I have come to peace with, but it has played a huge role in my spiritual development. I have written some journal entries about it that I would like to share on here when I have a little more time because it's something that I think would be helpful for me to talk about in terms of it relating to my finding Krishna and my own karma. So anyway.. I recognize that I ended a life through having an abortion. No question about that. But it was different on many levels - my reason why was different, the level of sentience (from what we know of fetal development at this time), my spiritual experience at the time (or lack thereof), and it was definitely a more abstract concept in that experience than it was in killing the mouse.

Having said all that, the emotions from the abortion were definitely WAY more intense. I was sure of my choice but I had a very hard time for a very long time afterward. With the mouse, it felt more.. direct? Like it was making a more direct impact on a living being, and it was ME that was doing it. So even though I have ended a life before, to me, it felt very different.

Anyway.. I just wanted to mention that.. not to make this thread all dramatic and awkward, but to be very clear in that it was not the first time my choices have dictated whether another being lives or dies, but that it felt like the first time with the mouse simply because the situations were so different.

If anyone is uncomfortable talking about abortion, please know that I don't expect you all to start talking about it on *this* thread, as the main issue was with the mouse. But at some point, I will post about my journal entries and how my abortion led me to Krishna in a very real (albeit very slow) way.

And thank you, Riverwolf, for your words.

[sanjaya]

You know it's funny, I had a similar experience the other day. I was visiting home, and when my dad and I did puja we noticed that there was a spider next to the picture of Goddess Lakshmi. Usually my dad avoids killing insects and other bugs outside of the house, but for some reason he didn't hesitate to kill this one. Is this sinful? I don't really know. Spiders can be harmful, and I certainly don't want bugs near the prasadam. I guess it boils down to a question of whether legitimate reasons or circumstances for wanting the death of an animal mitigates the sin of killing it.

What I do know is that you aren't interfering with karma by killing the animal. As Sri Krishna says, as we do our Dharma we must remember that it is he who is orchestrating everything, and I take this to mean that we can't believe that we have any real control over the law of karma. Even the Devas are drown in God's Maya. How can we humans believe that we have any ability to effect changes to someone's karma?