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Thread: Shri Rudra - Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo ??

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    Shri Rudra - Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo ??

    I have two doubts which i have mentioned below:


    The Traditional Vaishnavas talk of Panch tattva. I post what i have heard :

    1) Maha Vishnu (Origin)
    2) Narayana or Vaasudeva
    3) Sankarshana
    4) Pradyumna
    5) Anirudhha

    The Hare Krsna Vaishnavas say something different:

    1) Shri Krsna (Origin)
    2) Vaasudeva or Narayana
    3) Sankarshana
    4) Pradyumna
    5) Anirudhha

    Anyway, in either format, Shri Sankarshana is the second expansion of the Origin Supreme. Both formats agree that it is Shri Sankarshana who actually creates all universes & expands into Pradyumna & Anirudhha - this is what i have heard from them.


    Now, the great Shri Rudram prayer in Yajurveda mentions in its Rishi , Chandas & Devta section : "Shri Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo Yosaavaadityaha Parama Purusha Sa Esha Rudro Devataa"...........

    Shri Rudra is portrayed as the Original Lord in the Shri Rudram prayer. But the vaishnavas say that Shri Rudra is the second power or expansion of the supreme & not the origin...

    1) Pls clear this doubt !!!!!!

    Also, the Shaivas too have a pancha tattva . This differs between Vedic & Puranic Concepts. Vedic says Shri Rudra as the One but Puranic says Shri Shiva as the One. Then, in both formats, how would the pancha tattva of Shaivites look like ??

    2) Someone, Pls highlight this !!!

    Namaste,
    Giridhar

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    Re: Shri Rudra - Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo ??

    Dear YOGKRIYA bhai !!

    Im waiting for you to clear my doubts here...

    Its my humble request... This doubt has been there in my mind for some time... even tho rik & yajur veda says Shri Rudra to be supreme.. Pls read my first post above, & answer all questions.... Plzzz...

    Jai Kaali !!
    ******************************************
    " In the fifty letters reside the Vedas,
    In the fifty letters reside the Aagamaas,
    When one comprehends all the fifty,
    What remains are the letters Holy Five !! "

    - Tiru Mantram 965,

    by Tiru Moolar
    ******************************************

  3. #3

    Re: Shri Rudra - Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo ??

    Namaskar! Namah Sivaya! Namah Nikhilam!

    I will first briefly answer your doubt/questions in order not to make it one huge confusing post with a thousand quotes and explanations. Simple and short.

    In Vaishnavism/Gaudiya Vaishnavism Sankarshana comes later than Vishnu/Narayan with different Sankarshana other explanations. This is the position of Vaishnavism and it won’t be Vaishnavism if they put Shiva/Rudra on the first place. Consider this to clear your doubt of the first question.

    As for the “Pancha Tattvas of Shivaites” - as you have put it, is actually is the 36 tattavas in Shaivism. It is also mentioned in Kashmiri Shaivism. The Tantras consider basic 24 Tattvas and add another 12 more taken from the Saiva system. I will expand on those a bit later below, if you want to go into that, but would offer you to consider a much simpler understanding first -

    Rudra is mentioned in the Vedas, Shiva is a more benevolent overall term that includes his all aspects, forms that includes the ascetic, the householder grahasta and all inclusive. Besides the 11 Rudras, Rudra as the one is more specific. But Vedas do mention Rudra as the greatest and as we follow the scriptures and paramparas and writings later, we know that Shiva is Rudra.

    As far as sadhnatmak Tantrik non-philosophical understanding goes, it is considered into more technical aspects dealing with various moods, energies for accomplishing various tasks in sakaam or nishkam sadhnas. This deals more with a practical aspect and concentrates on establishing link between sadhak and the energy, will of Shiva and receiving his benediction for a particular task, desire, be it material or spiritual. In either case uplifting of a sadhak’s level bringing him near to the divine takes place.

    We may go into the various manifestations of Lord Shiva - Ashutosh, Rudra, Vaidhyanath, Pashupat, Mahakaal.., the 5 faces of Shiva, Rudra, aghora, Ishan..
    there is a purpose why I’m not enumerating the whole list here and their individual explanations. Sometimes, a book is revealed in one sentence. To realize the one verse or sentence sums it all up. From a sadhnatmak aspect worship Shiva using his all aspects as and when needed. For understanding various distinctions consider Shri Bheeshma Pitamah’s words who says that no man can understand Lord Shiva and if someone can say something on Shiva that is Vasudev Krishn. Of course these distinctions are there as Shiv manifests with his own potency for different reasons in different capacities - all for the benefit of the universe.

    We can put the Thousand names of Lord Shiva and start explaining each and their positioning etc. and then put the one we consider above or below as per our sampradaya’s attachment.

    But to answer your two questions in short:

    Q. 1: Shri Rudra is portrayed as the Original Lord in the Shri Rudram prayer. But the vaishnavas say that Shri Rudra is the second power or expansion of the supreme & not the origin...
    A: Shri Rudra, Shiva is the Original Lord and the Supreme father of the universe. This is declaration of Lord Brahma and Krishna and Rama, besides the multitudes of enlightened siddhas and sages including the Nav Naths, Vashishtha, Vishwamitra, Shankara, Agastya, Upamanyu, Valmiki, Vyasa, Thirumular, Bognath, Shri Sacchidananda, Shri Nikhileshwaranand, and the list of these glorious eternal stalwarts go on... So there is no doubt about it.

    Q.2: Also, the Shaivas too have a pancha tattva . This differs between Vedic & Puranic Concepts. Vedic says Shri Rudra as the One but Puranic says Shri Shiva as the One. Then, in both formats, how would the pancha tattva of Shaivites look like ??
    A: Shaivas have the 36 Tattvas (not 5) that is part of Sankha philosophy and is recognized also by Kashmir Shaivism. The Tantras consider basic 24 Tattvas and add another 12 more taken from the Saiva system.



    Now to elaborate more:

    More on Question One - position of Lord SHIVA -

    In Me the universe had its origin, 
In Me alone the whole subsists; 
In Me it is lost—Siva, 
The Timeless, it is I Myself, 
Sivoham! Sivoham! Sivoham!
    Salutations to Lord Siva, the vanquisher of Cupid, the bestower of eternal bliss and immortality, the protector of all beings, destroyer of sins, the Lord of the gods, who wears a tiger-skin, the best among objects of worship, through whose matted hair the Ganga flows.
    Lord Siva is the pure, changeless, attributeless, all-pervading transcendental consciousness. He is the inactive (Nishkriya) Purusha. Prakriti is dancing on His breast and performing the creative, preservative and destructive processes.
    When there is neither light nor darkness, neither form nor energy, neither sound nor matter, when there is no manifestation of phenomenal existence, Siva alone exists in Himself. He is timeless, spaceless, birthless, deathless, decayless. He is beyond the pairs of opposites. He is the Impersonal Absolute Brahman. He is untouched by pleasure and pain, good and evil. He cannot be seen by the eyes but He can be realised within the heart through devotion and meditation.
    Siva is also the Supreme personal God when He is identified with His power. He is then omnipotent, omniscient active God. He dances in supreme joy and creates, sustains and destroys with the rhythm of His dancing movements.
    He destroys all bondage, limitation and sorrow of His devotees. He is the giver of Mukti or the final emancipation. He is the universal Self. He is the true Self of all creatures. He is the dweller in the cremation-ground, in the region of the dead, those who are dead to the world.
    The Jivas and the world originate from Him, exist in Him, are sustained and rejected by Him and are ultimately merged in Him. He is the support, source and substratum of the whole world. He is an embodiment of Truth, Beauty, Goodness and Bliss. He is Satyam, Sivam, Subham, Sundaram, Kantam.
    He is the God of gods, Deva-Deva. He is the Great Deity—Mahadeva. He is the God of manes (Prajapati). He is the most awe-inspiring and terrifying deity, Rudra, with Trisul or trident in His hand. He is the most easily pleased (Asutosha). He is accessible to all. Even the untouchable Chandalas and the illiterate rustics can approach Him.
    He is the source of all knowledge and wisdom. He is an ideal Yogi and Muni. He is the ideal head of an ideal family with Uma as His devoted wife, Lord Subrahmanya, the brave general of strength and courage, Lord Ganesa, the remover of all obstacles.
    Sadasiva
    At the end of Pralaya, the Supreme Lord thinks of re-creation of the world. He is then known by the name Sadasiva. He is the root-cause of creation. From Sadasiva creation begins. In Manusmriti He is called Svayambhu. Sadasiva is unmanifested, He destroys the Tamas caused by Pralaya and shines as the self-resplendent light bringing forth the five great elements, etc., into being.
    The Siva Purana says that Siva is beyond both Prakriti and Purusha. Siva is Mahesvara. He is the witness, well-wisher and nourisher of all beings. The Gita says: ‘Upadrashtanumanta cha bharta bhokta mahesvarah’.
    Mahesvara conducts the work of creation according to His will and pleasure. The Sruti says, ‘Mayam tu prakritim viddhi mayinam tu mahesvaram’. Know Prakriti to be Maya and Mahesvara to be the wielder of Maya or Prakriti. The Sakti of Siva works in two different ways. Mula Prakriti and Daivi Prakriti. Mula Prakriti is Apara Prakriti from which the five elements and other visible objects and the Antahkarana are evolved. Para Prakriti is Chaitanya Sakti which converts the Apara Prakriti and gives name and form to it. Apara Prakriti is Avidya and Para Prakriti is Vidya. The controller and dispenser of these two Prakritis is Lord Siva.

    Siva is distinct from Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra.
    Lord Siva is the Lord of innumerable crores of Brahmandas or worlds. Isvara united with Maya gives rise to Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra out of Rajas, Sattva and Tamo Gunas respectively, under the command of Lord Siva. Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra are the trinities of the world.
    There is no difference among the trinities, Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra. By the command of Mahesvara these three do the creative, preservative and destructive duties of the world. The work of all the three deities is done conjointly. They all have one view and one definite purpose in creating, preserving and destroying the visible universe of names and forms. He who regards the three deities as distinct and different, Siva Purana says, is undoubtedly a devil or evil spirit.

    The Lord who is beyond the three Gunas, Mahesvara, has four aspects: Brahma, Kala, Rudra and Vishnu. Siva is the support for all the four. He is the substratum for Sakti also. Siva is distinct from the Rudra included in the trinities. Rudra is really one though according to the different functions He is considered to have eleven different forms.
    The first face of Siva does Krida or play, the second does penance, the third destroys or dissolves the world, the fourth protects the people and the fifth, being knowledge, fully covers the entire universe by its power. He is Isana the creator and promoter of all beings, from within.
    The first form of Siva is the enjoyer of Prakriti as Kshetrajna Purusha. The second is Tatpurusha resting in Sattva-guna, rooted in Bhogya-Prakriti, the Prakriti-enjoyed. The third is Ghora rooted in the eightfold Buddhi like Dharma, etc. The fourth is Vamadeva rooted in Ahankara and the fifth is Sadyojata, the presiding deity of the mind. The eight forms of Siva are Sarva, Bhava, Rudra, Ugra, Bhima, Pasupati, Isana and Mahadeva, rooted respectively in earth, water, fire, air, ether, Kshetrajna, sun and moon.

    Rudra - The Rigveda (2.33) describes Him as the “Father of the Maruts”, a group of storm gods. One of the most sacred hymns of the Vedas is Rudram, found both in the Rigveda and Yajurveda, which invokes Rudra and mentions the name Shiva several times, not in the current sense but as an epithet of Indra, Mitra and Agni. Popular tradition holds the Vedic Rudra and Shiva as one and the same. The Rigvedi hymns describe Rudra as as Sarva (the Archer), a name by which Shiva is also known popularly and name which alludes to his conneciton with ancient non-Vedic tribes. It is also included as one of His 1000 names, which are used in his ritual worship. In the Mahabharata, Shiva appears to Arjuna as an archer only.

    Lord Shiva’s thousand names SHIV SAHASTRANAMA are found in Mahabharata book13 Anushasanaparva given by none other than Lord Vasudev Krishn who had received them from the great sage Upamanyu. Krishna elaborates how he worshipped Shiva reciting these names.

    Now let’s see some more on Lord Shiva from Vedic scriptures:

    "To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts,The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call." (Rigveda 7:46:1 )

    Moreover Shiva, Rudra is hailed as the father of the universe in Rigveda:
    "Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call specially as the Sage impels us. " (Rigveda 6:49:10)

    Yajurveda:
    There is Shri Rudram in Taittariya samhita of Yajurveda.(4.5 ). It is otherwise called shatharudriyam. let us see what it says about Rudra.
    "Namasteastu bhagavan vishvesvaraya mahadevaya
triyambakaya triupurantakaya trikalagni kalaya kalaagni Rudraya nilakanthaya mrutyunjayaya sarveshvaraya sadashivaya
Sriman mahadevaya Namah ( First Anuvaka)
    meaning:
    "Let my salutations be to that great God who is the Lord of the universes; the great God who has three eyes and who destroys Tripura, the three Asura cities. To that God who is the Dandhya time when the three sacred fires are lit; who is Rudra the fire that consumes the universe; whose throat is blue; who has conquered death; the Lord of all; the ever auspicious one; salutations to that glorious and great God."

    Let us see another verse from it
    Namo Bhavaya Cha Rudraya Cha Namah Sharvaya Cha Pashupataye Cha
Namo Nilagrivaya Cha Shitikanthaya Cha
Namah Kapardine Cha Vyuptakeshaya Cha
Namah Sahasrakshaya Cha Shatadhanvane Cha
Namo Girishaya Cha Shipivishhtaya Cha (Fifth Anuvaka)
    meaning:
    Salutations to Him who is the source of all things and to Him who is the destroyer of all ills. Salutations to the destroyer and to the protector of all beings in bondage. Salutations to Him whose throat is black and whose throat is also white. Salutations to Him of the matted locks, and to Him who is clean-shaven. Salutations to Him who has a Thousand eyes and a hundred bows. Salutations to Him who dwells on the mount and who is in the form of Shipivista (Vishnu).

    Vedik Rishis have gone even further. They are calling Rudra as 'Bhavaya' ie., 'source' . How can he be called source of everything ? Only creator could be the source of everything . They called him 'pasupati' .All living beings are called 'pashu', because it is a metaphor and 'Pati' means one who 'rules' or 'protects'. oh !! here he is called protector and Destroyer as well. All three activities ie., Creation, protection and Destruction by Rudra himself ??? How could he do all the three things ? They also called Rudra as 'shipivista'(vishnu) !! it is epithet of 'Vishnu' in the Yajurveda .

    SVETASVATARA UPAN ISHAD of Yajurveda ( Oldest and one among the 11 primary upanishads )
    "Prakriti is perishable. Hara, the Lord, is immortal and imperishable. The non—dual Supreme Self rules both prakriti and the individual soul. Through constant meditation on Him, by union with Him, by the knowledge of identity with Him, one attains, in the end, cessation of the illusion of phenomena. "( 1:10 svetasvathara upanishad )

    Let us see what upanishads say about RUDRA

    SVETASVATARA UPAN ISHAD of Yajurveda ( Oldest and one among the 11 primary upanishads )
    "Prakriti is perishable. Hara, the Lord, is immortal and imperishable. The non—dual Supreme Self rules both prakriti and the individual soul. Through constant meditation on Him, by union with Him, by the knowledge of identity with Him, one attains, in the end, cessation of the illusion of phenomena. "( 1:10 svetasvathara upanishad )


    "Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time." ( 3:02 svetasvatara upsanishad )

    "He, the omniscient Rudra, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the support of the universe, He who, in the beginning, gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!" (3:04 svetasvatara upanishad )

    "The Supreme Lord is higher than Virat, beyond Hiranyagarbha. He is vast and is hidden in the bodies of all living beings. By knowing Him who alone pervades the universe, men become immortal "( 3:07 svetasvathara upanishad )


    "Seeking Liberation, I take refuge in the Lord, the revealer of Self—Knowledge, who in the beginning created Brahma and delivered the Vedas to Him". (6:18 svetasvatara upanishad )

    Here we see that the Vedik rishis are calling Rudra as supreme being, unlike the demi-god version of the 400 year old Gaudiyas/HKs.

    (Note: Svetasvatara upanishad is not Shaiva upanishad. Shaiva agamas were not even there at the time. Moreover, if this Upanishad is indeed a Shaiva Upanishad, other sects of Hinduism such as Vaishnavas wouldn't have quoted its verses/mantras as authority in their respective treatises.There are many words which voice submission to God or Brahman (words such as Sharanam, Prapadye, etc.). This concept of devotion later found profound expression in the Bhakti Sutras and other treatises on Bhakti.)


    The highest theistic scripture, so dear to our vaishnav friends, does declare the following:
    Bhagavatam (in Churning of the Ocean Chapter):
    23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.
    24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.
    31. O Lord Girisa, since your Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

    Superiority of shiva from Bhagavata purana:

    " O Lord siva , Those devotees who have fully dedicated their lives unto your lotus feet will certainly recognise as Paramātmā in each and every being, and as such they do not differentiate between one living being and another. Such persons treat all living entities equally. They never become overwhelmed by anger like animals, who can see nothing without differentiation ". (Srimad bhagavatam 4:6:46)

    "O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikunthha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this" ( Srimad bhagavatam 4:6:45)

    "O Bhagavan shiva , you create this cosmic manifestation, maintain it, and annihilate it by expansion of your personality, exactly as a spider creates, maintains and winds up its web." ( Srimad Bhagavatam 4:6:43 )

    "Lord Brahmā said: "O supreme lord Śiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way" ( srimad Bhagavatam 4:6:42 )



    "O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Hari Himself, approached Supreme Lord Śiva [Sadāśiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him. ( Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:19)

    "The demigods Headed by Lord Sri Hari observed Supreme Lord S'iva sitting on the summit of Kailâsa Hill with his wife, Bhavânî, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The demigods offered him their obeisances and prayers with great respect" ( Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:20 )

    The prajâpatis said: "O God of all gods (Deva deva), Mahâdeva, Supereme soul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds." (Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:21)

    "O lord, you alone are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire worlds( sarva jagat) because you are alone its ruler (tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagataīśvaro ). Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are alone the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship." (Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:22)

    "O lord Shiva, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation." ( Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:23 )

    "O Lord Shiva, You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, and you are alone that Secret Para Brahman (tvaḿ brahma paramaḿ guhyaḿ ). You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. You are the Supreme soul and supreme personality of godhead (tvam ātmā jagad-īśvaraḥ)" (Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:24)
    

tvaḿ śabda-yonir jagad-ādir ātmā prāṇendriya-dravya-guṇaḥ svabhāvaḥkālaḥ kratuḥ satyam ṛtaḿ ca dharmastvayy akṣaraḿ yat tri-vṛd-āmananti ( SB 8:7:25 )

    "O lord Shiva, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of entire creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [ṛta]. You are the shelter of the syllable oḿ, which consists of three letters a-u-m." ( Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:25 )

    "O Shiva, father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varuṇa, master of the waters, is your tongue." ( SB 8:7:26 )

    O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head ( SB 8:7:27)

    "O lord shiva, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Gâyatrî are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart" ( SB 8:7:28)

    "O lord, the Vedas are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Śiva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramātmā." (SB 8:7:29)

    O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature - goodness, passion and ignorance - are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance ( SB 8:7:30 )

    O Lord Girîsha, since the You are Brahman which is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahmâ, Lord Vishnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra ( SB 8:7:31)

    "When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. . What then is to be said of your destroying the Dakṣa-yajña, Tripurāsura and the kālagara ? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you. because, We all do not know how this happens " (SB 8:7:32)


    "Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your Supreme Trascedental Reality". (SB 8:7:33)

    "Even personalities like Lord Brahmâ and other demigods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the Truth (sat) and unTruth(Asat) (sad-asatoḥ parataḥ). Since no one can understand your actual nature (nāñjaḥ svarūpa-gamane). how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible. As far as we are concerned, we are creatures of Lord Brahmâ's creation. Under the circumstances, therefore, we cannot offer you adequate prayers, but as far as our ability allows we have expressed our feelings." (SB 8:7:34)

    "O Supreme Ordinator ( maheśvara) , your actual identity is impossible for us to understand.(etat paraḿ prapaśyāmo na ) As far as we can see, your presence brings flourishing happiness to everyone. But your transcedental nature is unknown (avyakta-karmaṇaḥ) ( SB 8:7:35)

    In spite of Bhagavatam repeatedly glorifying Lord Shiva as 'parabrahman' , some vaishnava Acharyas who are governed by 'EGO' refuse to accept Shiva as supreme lord. They resort to cheap tactics and shout ........ "it won't apply to shiva" , " it refers to antaryami vishnu who is in shiva"... etc..etc. But such remarks can never hide the truth.
    Those "fools" should follow what Narada said in Narada pancharatra.
    Narad Pancharatra:

    "Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha
    Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi"
    Meaning:
    Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’


    Shri Brahma -
    " O siva , I know that You are the Supreme controller(Parameswara), You are both the father and the mother of the entire cosmic manifestation and as the one ever auspicious and supreme brahman who is beyond cosmic manifestation" (SB 4:6:42 )


    Entire vedas, Vedik rishis asked only Lord shiva for liberation.

    tryambakaṃ yajāmahe sugandhiṃ puṣṭi-vardhanam
    urvārukam iva bandhanān mṛtyor mukṣīya māmṛtāt

    (Refer : Rigveda 7:59:12 or Yajurveda (Taittariya Samhita 1.8.6.i; VS 3.60)

    MEANING :
    We worship and adore you, O three-eyed one, You are sweet gladness, the fragrance of life, who nourishes us, restores our health, and causes us to thrive. As, in due time, the stem of the cucumber weakens, and the gourd if freed from the vine, so LIBERATE us from attachment and death, and do not withhold immortality


    Asking for MOKSHA or to free them from attachment is surely not something which comes under material desire (HK propagate Shiva is able to grant only material desires).

    Lord Shiva is known as MAHESHWARA and MAHADEV. See what Lord Krishna says to Arjuna about Lord SHIVA in Bhagvad Gita:

    upadrastanumanta ca
    bharta bhokta mahesvarah
    paramatmeti capy ukto
    dehe 'smin purusah parah (Bhagavad Gita 13:23)

    "Yet in this body there is another, a transcendental enjoyer who is MAHESHWARA, the supreme proprietor, who exists as the overseer and permitter, and who is known as Paramatma,the Supreme soul of universe".


    A little light can also be thrown on Lord Sadashiva’s position by studying TIME - Kaal. Sadashiv is Mahakaal.

    TIME - CALCULATION 



    The smallest unit for measuring the time is called ‘Nimesh’. The time taken to drop one’s eyelid is called one Nimesh. A kala consists of fifteen Nimeshas and thirty Kalas make a ‘Muhurta’. 

A day and a night consist of thirty ‘Muhurtas’. A month consists of thirty days, divided into two fortnights. One fortnight is known as ‘Krishna Paksha (dark lunar phase) and the other is known as Shukla Paksha (bright lunar phase). 

In Pitarloka the day consists of one fortnight and night of the same number of days. Shukla Paksha is the day of the Pitraloka and Krishna Paksha the night. 

One ‘Ayana’ consists of Six months. A year consists of two ‘Ayanas’. One year of the earth is equivalent to a day and a night of the deities. The six months when Sun is in the southern hemisphere of the earth, is actually the time when the deities experience night. On the contrary, the six months when sun is in the northern hemisphere, is the day time of the deities. One year of the deities is equivalent to three hundred and sixty years of this world. 

The yugas are counted on the basis of the years of the deities. According to the scholars there are four yugas - Satyayuga, Tretayuga, Dwapar yuga and Kaliyuga. 

A satyayuga is equivalent to four thousand years of the deities. 

A Treta yuga is equivalent to three thousand years of the deities. 
Similarly a dwapar yuga is equivalent to two thousand years of the deities and a Kaliyuga to that of one Thousand years of the deities. 

This way all the four yugas collectively are equivalent to twelve thousand years of the deities. 

A Kalpa consists of one thousand Chaturyugas. A Manvantar consists of seventy one Chaturyugas. 

One Kalpa is inhibited by fourteen Manus one after another in succession. 

A Brahma’s day is equivalent to one divine Kalpa. A Brahma’s year is equivalent to one thousand Kalpas. A Brahma’s yuga consists of eight thousand such years. 

A Brahma’s ‘ Savan’ consists of his one thousand yugas. Brahma’s life span is complete after three thousand such Sawanas. Five lakh and forty thousand numbers of Indras succeed one after another during the whole life span of Brahma. 

A Vishnu day is equivalent to the whole life span of Brahma. The whole life span of Vishnu is equivalent to a day of ‘Rudra’. The whole life span of Rudra is equivalent to a day of lord Shiva. In the whole life of lord Shiva five lakh and four thousand numbers of Rudras come and go. A Shiva’s day commences with the creation and before the end of the night the whole creation gets annihilated. Sadashiva is eternal.

    Siva is the unchanging consciousness – also Nirguna or without form or shape. This unchanging consciousness-Siva – becomes saguna or with form, when Maya Shakti, which is Siva’s illusive power appears as mind and matter.
    Siva’s Maya-Shakti is known by various names such as Uma, Parvati, Kali, Durga etc. This Maya-Shakti or power inheres in Siva just as the burning power inheres in fire, sweetness in sugar, whiteness in milk and meaning in the words.
    Siva stands for the Absolute, the unchanging, static background, of which Kali, the Shakti (power) is the dynamic expression. We call this Shakti or power Mother or Goddess. Goddess Kali combines in herself creative dynamism, destructive terror and redemptive grace.

    In every one of his aspects, the consort of Siva is not only His counterpart, but generally represents an intensification of his attributes. As destructress, She is Kali, as reproducer she is symbolised by the Yoni (Siva’s emblem). She is the mother of the universe (Jagan-matri). She is the type of beauty in Uma. She has also her forms as a female ascetic (yogini). In her role as destructress, she is Bhairavi Durga. As a mountaneer, she is Parvati. All these attributes are combined in her aspect of Mother Durga. Siva and Parvati represent the gathering together, and unifying in one personality, numerous attributes, properties and functions belonging to various deities and various divine forces.

    From The Mahabharata 
Sauptika Parva Sections VI/ VII
    Aswatthaman, the son of Drona, said: I shall at this hour seek the protection of the puissant Mahadeva! I will take the shelter of that god, that source of everything beneficial, viz., the lord of Uma, otherwise called Kapardin, decked with a garland of human skulls, that plucker of Bhaga’s eyes called also Rudra and Hara. In ascetic austerities and prowess, he far surpasses all the gods. I shall, therefore, seek the protection of Girisha (Siva) armed with the trident.
    I seek the protection of Him called Fierce, Stanu, Siva, Rudra, Sarva, Isana, Iswara, Girisha; and of that boon giving god who is the Creator and Lord of the universe; of Him whose throat is blue, who is without birth, who is called Sakra, who destroyed the sacrifice of Daksha, and who is called Hara; of Him whose form is the universe, who has three eyes, who is possessed of multifarious forms, and who is the lord of Uma; of Him who resides in crematoriums, who swells with energy, who is the lord of diverse tribes of ghostly beings, and who is the possessor of undecaying prosperity and power; of Him who wields the skull-topped club, who is called Rudra, who bears matted locks on his head, and who is a Brahmacharin (celibate). Purifying my soul that is so difficult to purify, and possessed as I am of small energy, I adore the Destroyer of the triple city, and offer myself as the victim. Hymned thou hast been, deserving art thou of hymns, and I hymn to thy glory!

    Siva and Rudra
From The Mahabharata 
Anusasana Parva, Section CLXI
    Vasudeva said: O mighty armed Yudhishthira, listen to me as I recite to thee the many names of Rudra as also the high blessedness of that high-souled one. The Rishis describe Mahadeva as Agni, and Sthanu, and Maheswara; as one-eyed, and three eyed, of universal form, and Siva or highly auspicious.
    Brahmanas conversant with the Vedas say that Siva has two forms. One of these is terrible, and the other mild and auspicious. Those two forms again, are subdivided into many forms. That form which is fierce and terrible is regarded as identical with Agni and Lightning and Surya (fire, lightning and sun). The other form which is mild and auspicious is identical with Righteousness and Water and Chandramas (moon).Then again, it is said that half his body is fire and half is Soma (or the moon).

    ‘’ Shivaaya Vishnu roopaaya,Shiva Roopaaya Vishnavey,
    Shivasya hrudayam VishnurVisshnoshchaHrudayagum Shivah.’’

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now to spice it up, some views on Lord Shiva from the Gaud Vaishnavs:
    At first, have a look at this post by a gentleman ShriVaishnava claiming Narayan to be source of Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra and all. First post:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2554
    He claimed to quote “VEDAS”, but what is he quoting? Upanishad and where Narayan word comes in RigVed. That doesn’t talk about Shiva’s origin.
    From a hym in RigVed he quotes Narayan as Vishva “kartha” and interprets it as “creator”. Other quotes as Vishnu shining, striding all over the places etc..

    Now, there are many Vedic verses declaring Lord Shiva as the original original of all.
    Some of which I have quoted. Param Tattva is Shiva and Narayan.

    If you want some more dwelling with the different God positioning agenda of the HKs, and have much free time to ponder then read the ones below, (CC is not considered shruti nor a Vedic scripture):

    The following quotations are from Sri Chaitanya-Charitamrita by Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, translated into English, with elaborate purports given by His Divine Grace  A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.   Writer’s comments are in UPPER CASE and brackets [ ]. 
    Introduction to Adi-Lila, Chapter 5, The Glories of Lord Nityananda Balarama 
    before Text One: 
    “The Personality of Godhead known as Sri Balarama in Krishnaloka is the original Sankarshana (attracting Deity), and from this Sankarshana expands another Sankarshana , called Maha-Sankarshana, who resides in one of the Vaikuntha planets.  By His internal potency, Maha-Sankarshana maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls.” 
     
    THE HOLY NAME OF SANKARSHANA IS A COMPOUND OF SAM ( SMA IN EGYPTIAN, SYN OR SYM IN GREEK AND COM IN LATIN) AND KARSHANA.  KARSHANA IS A VARIANT FORM OF THE NAME KRISHNA, WHICH IS WHY SRILA PRABHUPADA CALLS HIM THE ORIGINAL “ATTRACTING DEITY”.   KRISHNA / KARSHANA IS THE CHARISMA OR ALL-ATTRACTING LOVEABLE AND LOVING GOD OF ALL SPIRITUAL AND MATERIAL WORLDS.  FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WE MUST UNDERSTAND THAT KRISHNA AND BALARAMA ARE TWO PERSONS OF THE SAME GODHEAD.  SRI BALADEVA IS SAM-KARSHANA.  HE IS THE ‘ALSO KRISHNA’. HE IS ‘AND’ KRISHNA, ‘WITH’ KRISHNA AND ‘IS’ KRISHNA TOO.  SRI KRISHNA AND SAM-KARSHANA ARE BOTH THE SAME GOD.  THEY ARE NOT TWO GODS, BUT ARE TWO CO-ETERNAL PERSONS OF THE SAME GODHEAD, EQUAL IN DIVINITY AND BEAUTY, OPULENCE, OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPRESENCE AND OMNIPOTENCE IN EVERY WAY.   THEY ARE BOTH THE SAME  EKA / ECHAD GOD, BUT ONE IS THE LORD WHO IS SERVED AND THE OTHER IS THE SERVITOR LORD.  ONE (SRI KRISHNA) IS THE ORIGIN AND THE OTHER (SANKARSANA) IS HIS SECOND PERSON. 
     
    “On those planets, the second quadruple manifestation is present.” 
    THE CHATUR-VYUHA HAS PARALLELS IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM,  EGYPTIAN, JEWISH AND GREEK EMANATIONAL MYSTICISM. 
     
    “In the Causal Ocean is Maha-Vishnu, the original Purusha expansion from Sankarshana.   This Maha-Vishnu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. “ 
    THIS GLANCE IN SOME TRADITIONS IS ASSOCIATED WITH SADA SHIVA AS SHAMBHU AND THE FATHER OF THE ENTIRE COSMIC MANIFESTATION.   HE IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE SPIRITUAL IMPREGNATION OF SOULS INTO MATTER, AND IS THE LORD AND LOVER OF DURGA, THE MATERIAL NATURE AND MOTHER OF ALL UNIVERSES. 
    “Maha-Vishnu again enters the universe as the reservoir of all living entities, Garbhodakashayi Vishnu.  From Garbhodakashayi Vishnu expands Kshirodakashayi Vishnu, the Supersoul of every living entity.” 
     
    THESE ARE “VISHNOS TU TRINI RUPANI,” THE THREE FORMS OF VISHNU.  ONE WHO REALIZES THESE THREE FORMS OF VISHNU ACHEIVES MOKSHA, LIBERATION.  
     
    THESE THREE FORMS OF VISHNU ARE NOT ANALOGOUS TO THE PROTO-CATHOLIC TRINITY, IN WHICH  BOTH MAHA-VISHNU AND GARBHODAKASAYI VISHNU ARE INCLUDED (AS IN PURE LAND BUDDHISM’S TRI KAYA) WITH THE INTERMEDIATE FORMS OF THE SECOND PERSON OF THE GODHEAD. 


    Some different understanding mentioning Sankarshana is here:
    http://chiraan.wordpress.com/2010/08...i-de-creation/


    Prabhupad Gaudiya take on Lord Rudra/Shiva revealed through his purport/commentary:

    Srimad Bhagavatam 3.14.24

    PURPORT

    “Lord Siva, or Rudra, is the king of the ghosts. Ghostly characters worship Lord Siva to be gradually guided toward a path of self-realization. Mayavadi philosophers are mostly worshipers of Lord Siva, and Sripada Sankaracarya is considered to be the incarnation of Lord Siva for preaching godlessness to the Mayavadi philosophers. Ghosts are bereft of a physical body because of their grievously sinful acts, such as suicide. The last resort of the ghostly characters in human society is to take shelter of suicide, either material or spiritual. Material suicide causes loss of the physical body, and spiritual suicide causes loss of the individual identity. Mayavadi philosophers desire to lose their individuality and merge into the impersonal spiritual brahmajyoti existence. Lord Siva, being very kind to the ghosts, sees that although they are condemned, they get physical bodies. He places them into the wombs of women who indulge in sexual intercourse regardless of the restrictions on time and circumstance. Kasyapa wanted to impress this fact upon Diti so that she might wait for a while.”

    For entertainment’s sake, further read this whole page on Lord Shiva a vivd HK viewpoint propounded by Prabhupapad and his Gurus :
    http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/s...st-dude-2.html

    By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

    In the Siddhanta-ratnam, third ., texts 22, 23, 26 and 27, it is stated:

    “By displaying the pastime of worshiping His own form as Rudra, Lord Vishnu taught the worship of Rudra not to His own sincere devotees but to the insincere living entities who desire religiosity, economic development, sense gratification, and liberation. The Lord Himself has confirmed this fact when He spoke in the Narayaniya to Arjuna

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My conclusion and take on this emanates from Lord Shiva’s words is that Hari (Vishnu/Narayan) is in Shiva’s heart and Shiva is in Hari’s heart. One should consider them as two sides to the same coin.
    Shiva is EKO. One without the second. The Truth is one, the wise call him by many names.
    Yet you should also read Yog Vashishtha. Sage Vashishtha was the kul Guru of Lord Rama as you know.
    ----------------------------------------------





    More on Question 2 on the Tattvas -

    The Saiva Siddhanta system is the distilled essence of Vedanta. The great Siddha Tirumular’s work—Tirumantram—is the foundation upon which the later structure of Saiva Siddhanta philosophy was built. The twenty-eight Saiva Agamas, the hymns of the Saiva saints form the chief sources of Southern Saivism.
    In the books which treat of Saivism, there is a reference to four schools, viz., Nakulisa-pasupata, the Saiva, the Pratyabhijna and Rasesvara.
    In the Saiva Siddhanta, there are 36 Tattvas of which 24 are known as Atma Tattvas, 7 as Vidya Tattvas, and the remaining 5 as Siva Tattvas. The 24 Atma Tattvas are the 5 elements, ether, air, fire, water and earth; the 5 Tanmatras, sound, touch, form, taste and smell; the 5 sense-organs, ear, skin, eye, palate and nose; the internal organ; the 5 motor organs, speech, hand, foot, anus and the generative organ; and Ahankara, Buddhi and Guna. The 7 Vidya Tattvas are Purusha, Raga (love), Vidya (knowledge), Kala (art), Niyati (order), Kaala (time) and Asuddha (impure) Maya. The 5 Siva Tattvas are Suddha Vidya, Isvara, Sadasiva, Sakti and Siva.
    The five activities (Pancha-Krityas) of the Lord are Srishti (creation), Sthiti (preservation), Samhara (destruction), Tirobhava (veiling) and Anugraha (grace). These, separately considered, are the activities of Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Mahesvara and Sadasiva.
    In the five-lettered Mantra (Panchakshari) ‘Namassivaya’, Na is the screening power of the Lord that makes the soul to move in the world, Ma is the bond that binds him in the Samsaric wheel of the births and deaths, Si is the symbol for Lord Siva, Va stands for His grace and Ya stands for the soul. If the soul turns towards Na and Ma he will be sunk in worldliness. If he associates himself with Va he will move towards Lord Siva.
    Hearing the Lilas of Lord Siva and the significance of Panchakshara, is ‘Sravana’. Reflection on the meaning of Panchakshara is ‘Manana’ or ‘Chintana’. To develop love and devotion for Lord Siva and meditate on Him, is ‘Sivadhyana’. To become immersed in ‘Sivananda’, is ‘Nishtha’ or ‘Samadhi’. He who attains this stage is called Jivanmukta.
    Ashtamurti
    Siva is spoken of as being in eight forms (Ashtamurti). The eight forms of Siva are the five elements, the sun, the moon and the priest who performs sacrifice.
    Vishnu appeared in the Mohini form after the churning of the milk-ocean. Siva embraced Vishnu in that form. Sasta is the offspring of Siva and Mohini. Sasta is called also by the name Hari-Hara-Putra or the son of Hari and Hara.
    Appar wanted all Saivas to regard Vishnu as only another aspect of Siva.
    According to Appar, there are three aspects of Siva. (1) The lower Siva who dissolves the world and who liberates Jivas from their bondage. (2) The higher form is called Parapara. In this form Siva appears as Siva and Sakti (Ardhanarisvara). It has the name Param-Jyoti. Brahma and Vishnu were not able to comprehend this Jyoti. (3) Beyond these two forms is the Param, or the ultimate being from whom Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra originate. It is purely the Saiva form. It is formless. It is the Sivam of the Saiva Siddhanta. It is Para Brahman of the Upanishads and Vedantins.
    The Mahavishnu of Vishnu Purana corresponds to Param of Saiva Siddhantins. Narayana or the higher Vishnu corresponds to the Param-jyoti of Appar or Saiva Siddhantins. The lower Vishnu does the function of preservation. He corresponds to the lower Siva.
    What is the inner meaning of all the Saiva allusions about Vishnu worshipping Siva and all the Vaishnava allusions about Siva worshipping Vishnu? The lower Siva must take Narayana, the Parapara or Param-jyoti as his Superior. The lower Vishnu must take Param-jyoti or the Parapara as his Superior. The higher Vishnu and higher Siva are identical. They are inferior to Param, the Highest. In that highest condition called Siva Mukti, there is no duality. No one can see anything. One merges himself in Sivam or the Highest. If you wish to see, you will have to come to the stage immediately below the Highest.
    The Siva Murti or manifestation is inferior to the real ‘Sivam’ which is formless.
    According to the Saiva Siddhanta philosophy, the Tattvas are reckoned as ninety-six. They are as follows:
    24 Atma Tattvas, 10 Nadis, 5 Avasthas or conditions, 3 Malas or impurities, 3 Gunas (Sattva, Rajas and Tamas), 3 Mandalas (Surya or the sun, Agni or the fire and Chandra or the moon), 3 humours (Vata, Pitta and Sleshma), 8 Vikaras or modifications (Kama, Krodha, Lobha, Moha, Mada, Matsarya, Dambha and Asuya), 6 Adharas, 7 Dhatus, 10 Vayus, 5 Koshas and 9 doorways. The twenty-four Tattvas are the 5 elements (Bhutas), 5 Tanmatras (Sabda, etc.), 5 Jnana-Indriyas, 5 Karma-Indriyas and 4 Karanas (Manas, Buddhi, Chitta and Ahamkara). All these 96 relate to the body. Over and above these 96, there are the 5 Kanchukas or coverings. They are Niyati, Kaala, Kala, Raga and Vidya. The five enter the body and cause weariness to the Tattvas of the body and afflict the body.


    TATTVAS:
    The meaning of tattva
    One of the most popular expressions found in the Upanishads is “Tattvamsi” which means “Thou art That”, which is used in many schools of yoga as a meditative mantra. Tat means “that” tvam means “you” or “the individual”. Thus tattvam means that which is both transcendental and immanent, or macrocosm and microcosm, or Godhead and also the individual.

    All different schools of philosophy talk about the Tattvas.

    According to the Samkhya school of Hinduism, life evolves from Prakriti (Nature) when it comes into contact with the soul (Purusha). There are two eternal principles in the universe, individual soul called purusha and Nature called Prakriti. The souls are many while Nature is one. The souls are eternal and absolute, but when they come into contact with Nature, Nature holds them in its bondage and makes them embodied soul. This video explains how Nature envelops the souls and undergoes transformation and evolution and how various tattvas are created.

    The Samkhya school of Hinduism made the concept of tattvas their central philosophy while detailing the process of creation. The Samkhya school of philosophy identifies 24 tattvas that are used in creation. In Samkhya there is no divine element or para tattva. The Vedanta school of philosophy accepts these 24 tattvas with some improvements. They also recognize a supreme or divine tattva which is absent in the Samkhya. Saivism identifies 36 tattvas and considers Siva tattva as the highest. Beyond Siva tattva is the atattva, which is not counted among the 36. The names of the 36 tattvas and their descriptions are as below.
    Atattva - ParaSiva or formless absolute Brahman who is beyond all the tattvas, symbolized by sivalinga, experienced in the state of samadhi

    He who is deluded by your maya sees not while he sees, understands not while he hears, and knows not the truth while he reads - Kularnava Tantra

    Because of the large number of possible blendings and re-blendings, the 36th tattva - Shiva Shakti - may seem to become identified, conditioned and confused.


    Tattvas in Vaishnavism

    Within Puranic literatures and general Vaishnava philosophy tattva is often used to denote certain categories or types of being or energies such as :

    Krishna-tattva
    The Supreme personality of Godhead. The causative factor of everything including other Tattva(s).

    Vishnu-tattva
    Any incarnation or expansion of Krishna

    Sakti-Tattva
    The multifarious energies of the Lord Krishna. It includes his internal potency Yoga Maya and material prakriti

    Jiva-tattva
    The living souls (jivas)

    Siva-tattva
    Lord Siva (excluding the Rudra(s)) is not considered to be a jiva.

    Mahat-tattva
    The total material energy (prakriti).


    In Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy that there are a total of five primary tattvas described in terms of living beings, which are collectively known as the Pancha Tattva.


    Shiv Tattvas in Tantra:
    Tantra accepts the 24 tattvas or categories of the 'sankhya' system from ‘prakriti’ down to the mahabutas and adds 12 more , taking them from the Saiva system with some modifications , and makes them 36 .

    THESE 36 TATTWAS ARE divided into three groups...

    1) five pure tattwas
    2) seven partly pure and partly impure tattwas
    3) the 24 impure tattwas as in the sankhya.

    The first group consists of

    1) siva
    2) sakti
    3) nada
    4) bindu and
    5) shudda vidya

    and here is where we see the tantric modification- for, in the
    saiva system, corresponding to these, we have

    1) siva
    2) sakti
    3) sadasiva
    4)ishwara
    5) suddha-vidya


    in the tantric scheme, siva-tattwa and shakti tattva are really ONE

    Here the Tantrik philosophy has borrowed the ideas of:
    1) vedanta, 2)sankhya and 3)saiva systems
    but has also relied on mimasaka and yoga.
    The mimasakas believed that both shabda and artha - words and their meanings - are ETERNAL.


    The denotation of a WORD, according to Mimasaka system of thought did not depend on any human convention, but belonged to the nature of the WORD iteself. The WORD is eternal and so also its denotation. Thus, the word is not different from the letters composing it though when it is pronounced one hears only a unity of sounds. Furthermore, the Mimasaka believed that both SABDA (words) and ARTHA (meaning) were - inanimate.

    The Tantras accepted the mimansaka's theory of the 'eternal'
    nature of sabda and artha, but went one step further by asserting
    that 'sabda' and 'artha' were as much the embodiment of siva-sakti as the - UNIVERSE itself.

    sabdartha- brahman - instead of mere - sabda-brahman. For it is the ‘source’ of both words and things- sabda as well as artha - words as well as objects- are all manifestations of SHAKTI.
    As the Sabda was of the nature of the Varnas comprising it, the Tantra system of thought affirms that the creative force of the universe resided in all the letters of the alphabet.
    Thus, the different letters of the alphabet symbolizes the
    different functions of the creative force, and their totality designates ‘matrika’ or the MOTHER in miniature.
    Therefore, a "mantra" is not a mere combination of sounds , but is the subtle form of the presiding deity herself. So the object of
    one's meditation on the mantra is to identify oneself with the deity of the mantra.

    A pure thought has to pass through several stages before it
    becomes a concrete creative force! similarly, the sound has to pass through several stages before it is actually heard by the EAR-

    THESE STAGES ARE CALLED

    1)para
    2) pasyanti
    3) madhyama
    4)vaikhari

    It is against this background, one needs to understand...

    1)mantra-varna rupini
    2) para , pasyanti, madhyama , vaikari rupini
    names of Sree Lalita devi in the Sree Lalita Sahastranama !

    Each groups of Tattvas, their function and how they fit into the Tantric scheme and what bearing they have on Tantric Sadhna:



    The 36 Tattvas

    1.. prithvI - the earth, possessed of solidity
    2. ap.h - water, possessed of fluidity
    3. tejas.h - fire, possessed of heat
    4. vAyu - air, characterizing perpetual motion
    5. AkAsha - ether or sky, with character of space
    6. gandha tanmAtra - smell in the form of subtle earth
    7. rasa tanmAtra - taste in the form of subtle water
    8. rUpa tanmAtra - form, in the form of subtle fire
    9. sparsha tanmAtra - touch, in the form of subtle air
    10. shabda tanmAtra - sound in the form of subtle ether
    11. shrotra - the auditory sense that perceives sound
    12. tvac - the tactile sense that perceives touch
    13. cakshus - the optic sense that perceives form
    14. jihvA - the gustatory sense that perceives taste
    15. ghrANa - the olfactory sense that perceives smell
    16. vAc - speech, the motor organ of articulate expression
    17. pANi - the hand, the motor organ of grasping and leaving
    18. pAda - the foot, the motor organ of locomotion
    19. pAyu - the motor organ of evacuation
    20. upastha - the motor organ of generation
    21. manas - the mind, the inner sense that is attained, when
    rajas, the mobility of misery is more dominant over sattva, the rhythm of happiness and tamas, the inertia of delusion [we can say manas is the root of all volition)
    22. buddhi - the intellect, the inner sense that is attained when
    sattvA - (the rhythm) is more dominant than rajas (the mobility) and tamas (the inertia). [we can say buddhi is the root of all conviction.]
    23. ahamkara - the ego, the inner sense that is attained when tamas (inertia) predominates over sattvA (the rhythm) and rajas (the mobility).
    [we can say that ego is the root of all fancy and converges
    towards the self.]
    24. citta - which is attained by the equipoised state of sattvA,
    rajas and tamas.
    25. puruSha or the jIva (of the microcosm) - this is, although
    full in itself, commands only to a limited extent the five powers that are detailed below.
    26. kalA - the kriyA shakti - the power to do things but to a
    limited extent, inherent in the jIva
    27. avidyA - also called vidyA, the jnAna shakti - in a veiled
    form and thus limited in its operation, inherent in the jIva
    28. rAga - the icchA shakti, perpetual satisfaction, which
    operates only partially and thus limited in operation, also inherent in the jIva.
    29. cit shakti - perpetuity inherent in the jIva, when limited by
    the operation of the six changes ('exists', 'takes birth', 'grows', 'ripens', 'wanes', and 'perishes')
    30. niyati - that which causes avidyA to veil the Anandashakti, the sat-cit-Ananda, inherent in the jIva
    31. mAyA - the condition operating upon the Ishvara, causing it to look upon the phenomenal world as 'this', i.e. an entity separate from itself
    32. shuddha vidyA - the condition operating upon the sadAshiva, causing it to identify itself with the phenomenal world with the impression, 'I am this'
    33. maheshvara - that which is operated upon by the mAyA
    34. sadAshakti - that which is operated upon by the shuddhavidyA
    35. shakti - the desire which is but the impression of the world to be created
    36. shiva - the absolute non-differentiated existence, when
    conditioned.

    ...Astu


    Although, I remain unqualified to comment on Lord Shiva and realize the tattvas, hope this little effort is able to do justice to your query about Lord Shiva's position and the Tattvas in Shaivism.

    NAMAH SHIVAYA! SHIVAM SARVA MAYAM!
    SHIVOHAM SHIVOHAM SHIVOHAM.

    YOGKRIYA


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    Re: Shri Rudra - Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogkriya View Post
    [SIZE="3"]Namaskar! Namah Sivaya! Namah Nikhilam!

    Those "fools" should follow what Narada said in Narada pancharatra.
    Narad Pancharatra:

    "Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha
    Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi"
    Meaning:
    Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’


    How much ever, i hear glory of Shri Shiva, i want to hear more & more & more. Day after day, im growing madder & madder. Tears fill my eyes, yogkriya, when i read & meditate on Him..

    Wot GREAT work have u done ! Glory to you & to ppl like u, too !!

    I dint ever know Narada Pancharatra which is MOST QUOTED BY SHRI PRABHUPAD & OTHERS, contained this line. I have never read it. The Shri Rudram translations written by you are very correct.

    Yogkriya, I have read the pancha tattva of shaivas (Tirumoolar says nine - Shiva,Shakti,Naada,Bindu & Sadashiva + SadaSHiva,Maheshwara,Rudra,VIshnu & brahma;with Sada SHIva in between they total upto nine - these two groups split in SOOKSHMA & STHOOLA PANCHAKSHARA ).. With chanting of either one Panchakshara, the other order is automatically repeated thereby revealing the supreme knowledge to the sadhak ....

    Haa ! What a glory of the letters Holy Five !!!!

    What an amazing work by you !! I have saved the ENTIRE TEXT .. Have to keep on studying it !!

    Even the Vedas are nothing but spiritual experiences of rishis (some in sadhak stages too).

    When i read Shri Aurobindo's SECRET OF THE VEDA wherein He says: "Agni is the ONLY IMMORTAL element in the human. Agni is born of the Supreme Divine. Agni has access to the abundance of the Bull & the mystic four udders of the cow. Agni is the prototype of the puranic Skanda on the earth...."

    The last two lines SEALED THE MATTER virtually for me, as to who i was looking for all these years.. He is my beloved Father & Mother - Shri Rudra.

    For vedic people, TRUTH was Shri Rudra & for puranic people , it was Shri Shiva. In the vedas, as u said, Shiva is used as an epithet for Indra, Agni... Shri David Frawley (Vamadeva Shastri) also says that: " Vedic Indra has lots of similarities with Vedic Rudra. Both are destroyer of cities..."


    You have also said what i recently posted : that true Tantriks know who Kaali & Shiva are. So true !!! It is the Mother who can show us who the Father is !!!

    Glories of Shri Shiva can be recounted only by Shri Krsna/Vishnu.. He is our Guru on this path - the path to the One without a second !!

    Before concluding, i also recount your immense love for Shri Rudra, due to which your love for Narayana/Hari is immense. Sanatan Dharma needs people like you !!!

    EKO HI RUDRAH, NA DVITEEYAAYA TASTHUH !!!

    - RUDRA IS ONLY ONE, THERE IS NO SECOND !!!

    My pranaams to you, YOGKRIYA !!!
    ******************************************
    " In the fifty letters reside the Vedas,
    In the fifty letters reside the Aagamaas,
    When one comprehends all the fifty,
    What remains are the letters Holy Five !! "

    - Tiru Mantram 965,

    by Tiru Moolar
    ******************************************

  5. #5
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    Re: Shri Rudra - Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo ??

    **********************************************************
    The denotation of a WORD, according to Mimasaka system of thought did not depend on any human convention, but belonged to the nature of the WORD iteself. The WORD is eternal and so also its denotation. Thus, the word is not different from the letters composing it though when it is pronounced one hears only a unity of sounds. Furthermore, the Mimasaka believed that both SABDA (words) and ARTHA (meaning) were - inanimate.

    The Tantras accepted the mimansaka's theory of the 'eternal'
    nature of sabda and artha, but went one step further by asserting
    that 'sabda' and 'artha' were as much the embodiment of siva-sakti as the - UNIVERSE itself.

    sabdartha- brahman - instead of mere - sabda-brahman. For it is the ‘source’ of both words and things- sabda as well as artha - words as well as objects- are all manifestations of SHAKTI.
    As the Sabda was of the nature of the Varnas comprising it, the Tantra system of thought affirms that the creative force of the universe resided in all the letters of the alphabet.
    Thus, the different letters of the alphabet symbolizes the
    different functions of the creative force, and their totality designates ‘matrika’ or the MOTHER in miniature.
    Therefore, a "mantra" is not a mere combination of sounds , but is the subtle form of the presiding deity herself. So the object of
    one's meditation on the mantra is to identify oneself with the deity of the mantra.
    **********************************************************

    When i was reading abt MIMAMSAKA view on words, i was waiting for the Tantric view... Phew !! I was relieved when i read that. Otherwise, with ALL THESE THOUSANDS OF ROPES CAUSING DEATH OF THE BODY, where IS the hope?

    "In all the fifty letters, reside the Shakti.. SO, chant hurriedly the lettes Holy Five.." - Tiru Moolar .

    Bhai, THIS JAPA , this simplest procedure for the TOUGHEST job on earth , ALONE gives me immense relief.. ALl Japa requires is effort - supreme effort. The skill required will be given by the MOTHER...

    You did include Swami Shivananda's words on Panchakshari Mantra !! Great..

    Great article.. I know now, you HAVE been doing sadhana for few years...

    Best wishes,
    Warm Rgds
    Jai Kaali !!!
    ******************************************
    " In the fifty letters reside the Vedas,
    In the fifty letters reside the Aagamaas,
    When one comprehends all the fifty,
    What remains are the letters Holy Five !! "

    - Tiru Mantram 965,

    by Tiru Moolar
    ******************************************

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    Re: Shri Rudra - Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo ??

    ***********************************************************
    For entertainment’s sake, further read this whole page on Lord Shiva a vivd HK viewpoint propounded by Prabhupapad and his Gurus :
    http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/s...st-dude-2.html
    ***********************************************************

    It looks like entertainment, but this has been seriously used by HK to deride Shri Shankara & Shaivites.. The one esp, about Shankara's inability to control sexual urges is in very bad taste...
    ******************************************
    " In the fifty letters reside the Vedas,
    In the fifty letters reside the Aagamaas,
    When one comprehends all the fifty,
    What remains are the letters Holy Five !! "

    - Tiru Mantram 965,

    by Tiru Moolar
    ******************************************

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    Re: Shri Rudra - Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo ??

    Hey Yogkriya !!

    have you read THE MOTHER'S AGENDA - 13 VOLUMES..
    The spiritual experiences of Mother of Sri Aurobindo Ashram ? It clearly gives account of how She transformed Her body into CHinmaya Deha !

    Mother was in touch with ALL Gods of Hinduism. "Shri Krsna used to come dancing & sit by my bedside & i would rest my head on his shoulder..."

    In early 1960s Shankara came to Her room (Mother & Sri Aurobindo being foreign educated,use the word Shiva for Shri Shankar Bhagwan).. " I saw Shiva , a FORMIDABLE BEING - a brilliant red orange hue - the color when manifests his supreme consciousness. He said he would give ANYTHING to me. I asked to be rid of this physical ego , which happened immediately. I had a funny sensation in my cells...."

    When the Mother wanted to be rid of PHYSICAL EGO - the ego of cells, the TOUGHEST JOB, She dint ask any of the other Gods - not even Shri Krsna..
    She had to ask Her own son....

    Elsewhere, Mother says: " Christ & Buddha have come & gone, but it is Rudra who still holds the entire world in the hollow of His hands..." also, this: " This Gandhi's India & Buddha's India should go..."

    For me, these are proofs enough who Shankar Bhagwan is? Why 5000 years ago, Shri Krsna & Arjuna fell prostrate on the ground before Him ?

    Even ADI SHAKTI MOTHER MIRRA ALFASA had to ask Shri Shankara to be rid of physical ego !! I get thrills & what not, when i think abt it..

    Humble pranaams
    Anbe Shivam
    ******************************************
    " In the fifty letters reside the Vedas,
    In the fifty letters reside the Aagamaas,
    When one comprehends all the fifty,
    What remains are the letters Holy Five !! "

    - Tiru Mantram 965,

    by Tiru Moolar
    ******************************************

  8. #8

    Re: Shri Rudra - Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo ??

    Yogkriya!

    So your long long explanation about Shiva/Rudra has given answer to this "Shri Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo Yosaavaadityaha Parama Purusha Sa Esha Rudro Devataa" ?


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