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  1. #1
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    Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    Warning: The Tat Khalsa Sikhs may want to skip reading this post.

    It was a personal quest to learn about the Hindu-Sikh acrimony which led me to gather the following information. It is by no means meant to hurt or disrespect anyone, and the Tat Khalsa Sikhs should heed the above warning. Also, the interested readers may access more information at the two links provided below, and from additional material available on the internet, to draw their own conclusions.

    The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism – which arose from the Sanatan Dharma and Vedic culture - to be a denomination of Sanatan Dharma. In the early days of Sikh history, the Gurudwaras were managed by Mahants (caretakers). Frescos of Hindu deities, murtis of Hindu deities as well as images of Sikh gurus formed part of the sanctum. When Punjab fell under the British rule, hordes of missionaries moved in to harvest the lost souls in the name of Jesus. A Sikh religious administrative body, Sanatan Sikh Sabha was established in 1873 by Sikhs in Amritsar to counter the rising influence of, and conversion to Christianity.

    The British Raj ruled by creating divisions through tactics which included altering and editing scriptures to divide and conquer and keep the populace subjugated, ignorant and subservient. All forms of Indian Nationalism and unifying aspects like religion were manipulated and suppressed. It is alleged that Max Arthur McAuliffe, the British Deputy Commissioner of Punjab, saw an opportunity with the establishment of Sanatan Sikh Sabha and engineered the formation of a second Sabha, Tat Khalsa (the 'True Khalsa') Singh Sabha in Lahore in 1879, as a political rival to the Sanatan Sikh Sabha. Whereas the Sanatan Dharma Sikhism acknowledges its roots in the Vedic culture and believes in Hindu-Sikh unity; the Tat Khalsas are focused more on having a Sikh identity, separate from the non-Sikh Punjabis. So, the motive for the formation of this Tat Sabha were primarily to push Sikhs over to a pro-Muslim stance, put a wedge between the Sikhs and non-Sikh Punjabis thereby weakening the Hindus, and also to propagate the belief among the Sikh soldiers serving the Raj that their Guru’s prophecies coincided with the interests of the British Raj. It was a deliberate act in their “divide and rule” tactics and to get the Tat Khalsa Sikhs to be loyal to the British Raj.

    Soon after their establishment, the Tat Khalsas with the institutional support of the British Raj, started easing out the mahants from the management of the Gurudwaras; using force when needed. To promote a Sikh identity separate from the former glory of Hindu-Sikh days, a reform movement was initiated - older source material was suppressed, marginalized, denied, invalidated or even, as in case of Gurbilas, banned outright. Sikh scriptures were reinterpreted to expunge any hint of Hindu-ness in them. All Hindu frescos and murtis were removed from the Gurudwaras and all practices deemed to be Hindu were discontinued. In 1905, the murtis removed from the Golden temple included lifesized murtis of Lord Vishnu, of Chandi-Durga, of Lord Krishna, and of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.

    Over the last few decades, the newer generations of Sikhs have been indoctrinated into the Tat Khalsa mold. They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity. They are to conform to owing their allegiance to the Guru Granth Sahibji only, to the total exclusion of all other religious/spiritual literature. This effort has been very successful as most of the mainstream Sikhs today, subscribe to the Tat Khalsa Sabha. Other sects are frowned upon and dealt with harshly, sometimes with the elimination of their leaders. Although, the seat of spiritual authority emanates from the Golden Temple; in North America, there is always a tussle between the conformist and reformist minded Tat Khalsas, which is at times settled violently. Some of the alternate sikh sects are Sanatani, Udasi (ascetics, founded by Sri Chand, Guru Nanak’s eldest son), Nirmal (a scholarly sect), Nirankari, Namdhari (have a living guru), Ramgharia (carpenter community), Mazhabi (Dalits, lower caste converts from the janitor community), Ravidasi (Dalits, lower caste members from the cobbler community) etc.

    A murti or a book is an inanimate object. It is only the respect/reverence/faith of a sincere devotee which makes them divine. The devotion of the faithful Sikhs and Hindus, makes the Guru Granth Sahibji and the murtis of Ram and Krishan and other deities worshipable. For either side to deny the presence of the same divine force in a murti or the holy book, is to deny the obvious and to foster separate-mindedness.

    Sanatan Sikhi link:
    http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/introduction.html

    Tat Khasla Link:
    http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Tat_Khalsa
    Last edited by Believer; 13 September 2010 at 08:23 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    Live and learn is my motto. Stagnation leads to spiritual blindness.

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    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    All I have to say is that tamperring with scriptures to divide a faith is just about the sickest thing I can imagine anyone doing.

  4. #4

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    yeah i have also experienced this ..
    means see there are some sikhs who sing bhajans and devotional songs of krishna,durga,rama etc.

    and there are sikhs who consider gurbani is only thing...
    while it also contains the rama,krishna etc.

    also i feel confused how sikhs deny to idol worship while maharaja Ranjit Singh
    made a golden covering on the jwalamukhi temple in north , and He HIMSELF ,
    shree guru Gobing Singh Ji wrote "Chandi di vaar" (poem praising goddess Durga.)

    although being a hindu though i have always been to gurudwara as its near to home and any time we get a chance to be in amritsar we visit golden temple for sure..
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    i dont know how bitterness came in sikhs??

  5. #5

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    "They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity."
    LOL. You're not exaggerating either. It's precisely because these people are terrified of what may come bubbling up from the surface of long buried historical realities that the ideologues who have denied and suppressed these facts create this ridiculous conspiracy theory about the evil Hindus.

    I've been contacted by all these people, GURSIKH organization, and that twit who makes the "RSS put all the Hindu imagery into Sikhism" videos. Trust me, Alex Jones has nothing on Tat Khalsas. I was just in communication with a guy trying to convince me everything was all fault of the evil Bahmins. So I asked, "what bahmins? And he said, "Indian government." So I informed him that current ruling family of India is Christian. To which he replied, "No, they're definitely bahmins." "How so?" I asked. "Because of bahminvaadi." Oh.

    Then I asked, "Well what about Manmohan Singh?" Honest question. To which he replied, "He's a bahmin too."


    See this purataan Nihang Dumalla with all those chakrs? Where did the chakr come from anyway? I'll give you a clue...



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    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post
    "


    See this purataan Nihang Dumalla with all those chakrs? Where did the chakr come from anyway? I'll give you a clue...


    i bow to your sense of logic ,and how you relates the stuff

    ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
    मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥
    I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna or Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme 434

  7. #7

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    i bow to your sense of logic ,and how you relates the stuff

    ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
    मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥
    I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna or Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme 434
    It isn't about Ganesh dear. It's about the Sudarshana Chakr. It's just that murthi of Ganesh is showing how it is clearly worn on the head and spun on the finger. Reason Gurbani of Dasam Granth claims not to adore Ganesh in the beginning is because Ganapati is traditionally invoked first. But that practice varies within sects. Vaishnavs for example some do, some don't with rationale being some teach there is no need to worship the demi-gods since all the demi-gods reside in the One Absolute.


    Now, the issue was the Sudarshana Chakra: MahaVishnu and the Vishnu avatars are NOT the same as demi-gods. So per certain sects will emphasis some worship over others, or even in case of Arya Samaj, not even do murthi pooj as a Hindu organization.


    ਮੇਰੋ ਬਾਪੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਤੂ ਧਨੁ ਕੇਸੌ ਸਾਂਵਲੀਓ ਬੀਠੁਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    maero baap maadhho thoo dhhan kaesa saanvaleeou beethulaae ||1|| rehaao ||
    O my Father, Lord of wealth, blessed are You, long-haired, dark-skinned, my darling. ||1||Pause||

    ਕਰ ਧਰੇ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਗਜ ਹਸਤੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਉਧਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥
    kar dhharae chakr baikunth thae aaeae gaj hasathee kae praan oudhhaareealae ||
    You hold the steel chakra in Your hand; You came down from Heaven, and saved the life of the elephant.

    ਦੁਹਸਾਸਨ ਕੀ ਸਭਾ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਅੰਬਰ ਲੇਤ ਉਬਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥
    dhuhasaasan kee sabhaa dhropathee anbar laeth oubaareealae ||1||
    In the court of Duhsaasan, You saved the honor of Dropati, when her clothes were being removed.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 988



    Now clearly it's no mystery who the Gurbani is referring to here. This is a God with perceivable form, who is called Keshava (Krishna NAAM), who resides in Vaikunth (Vishnu) and holds a chakr (Vishnu) and who saved honor of Dropadi (Krishan avatar of Vishnu.


    So here is where the Chakr comes from. Like the Khanda, it is an ancient weapon of the Hindu people and comes from the scriptures descriptions of the Gods who are all geared out in weapons to battle evil and triumph.


  8. #8
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    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post
    SQUID
    ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
    मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥

    I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna or Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme 434
    . Reason Gurbani of Dasam Granth claims not to adore Ganesh in the beginning is because Ganapati is traditionally invoked first. But that practice varies within sects. Vaishnavs for example some do, some don't with rationale being some teach there is no need to worship the demi-gods since all the demi-gods reside in the One Absolute.


    [/IMG]
    Sikh s need not to know Hindu Sect adore Ganesh or Vishnu .

    These devi devtas are created and destroyed by Waheguru like worms

    ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
    किते क्रिसन से कीट कोटै उपाए ॥
    He hath Created millions of Krishnas like worms.

    ਉਸਾਰੇ ਗੜ੍ਹੇ ਫੇਰਿ ਮੇਟੇ ਬਨਾਏ ॥
    उसारे गड़्हे फेरि मेटे बनाए ॥
    He Created them, annihilated them, again destroyed them, still again Created them.

  9. #9

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna or Vishnu;


    Much is made about a few tuuks in Shri Dasam Granth, however I'm aware there's a dispute between the Udasi Govind Sadan translation and the released SGPC translation. And this is no small matter as the SGPC relied on Udasi Baba Virsa Singh who was the Braj and Sanskrit expert who SGPC relied on to translate Sri Dasam Granth into Punjabi and on basis of his respected expertise as a scholar to authenticate Sri Dasam Granth.

    looking for translation of dasam granth
    "I really would recommend the Sri Dasam Granth Translation by Dr Jodh Singh and Dharam Singh."

    "The translation of the whole Dasam Granth is online, in 5 Volumes, in Punjabi.
    Click on the following link (the website is by Baba Virsa Singh)."
    <admin-cut: anti gurmat site>

    "This has been discussed a few times. Baba Virsa is a fake guru and gobind sadans translations are not per gurmat."

    "I humbly request the SikhSangat admins to remove that link. And Sadh Sangat jee please be warned that Gobind Sadan is an anti-panthic organization and their interpretations of Guru's bani are very twisted and prejudiced."

    "The surinder singh kolhi version does not have Chitropakhyan... alot is cut out."
    http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?...h/page__st__36
    ------------------------------

    Imagine the logic that Gobind Sadan was cut from the link on Sikh Sangat forum as ANTI-GURMAT, even as the SGPC could not complete the Punjabi translation and release of Sri Dasam Granth without the sanatan Udasi Baba's help. Now that's what I call some lousy gratitude.

    "On February 20th, 2000, at Gobind Sadan, His Holiness Baba Virsa Singh released the first complete Punjabi translation of the writings of Guru Gobind Singh, plus other scholarly works about the life and teachings of Guru Gobind Singh." http://www.dasamgranth.org/
    "Special guest, Giani Partap Singh ji, Head Granthi, Siri Sachkhand Hazoor Sahib remarked: "After Guru Granth Sahib ji, Dasam Granth holds a very special place with the Panth. In reality, Guru Granth Sahib ji is the bani for the whole world, but Dasam Granth is the Granth of Khalsa Panth. It contains the bani basic to the Sikh principles."

    Keynote speaker, Dr. Harpal Singh Pannu, Professor and head of the Department of Religious Studies, Punjabi University, Patiala, recounted the 300 year history of Dasam Granth: It was given so much respect that, "originally Dal Khalsa were responsible for caring for this Granth, and then the leaders of the Nihangs took the responsibility. At this point all Nihangs, both the Damdani Takhsals, the Udasi and Nirmala Semperdais, the SGPC and DGPC, Srimani Akali Dal, and the Gobind Sadan Institute have all accepted that Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh ji's bani. Only some irresponsible missionaries and their organizations and missionary colleges have been preaching against the purity and authenticity of this Granth."Gobind Sadan Institute
    Academic Concerns of Sri Dasam Granth

    "However, the controversy continues, as there is reluctance among some modern day preachers to fully accept the entire text of the Dasam Granth. Therefore, scholars appealed to Baba Virsa Singh, a highly revered spiritual teacher of Sikh background, to gather scholars to clarify the doubts about the Dasam Granth. A seminar was held on January 3rd and 4th, 1999, at the Gobind Sadan Institute in New Delhi, India.

    On February 20th, 2000, at Gobind Sadan, Baba Virsa Singh confirmed the Dasam Granth in its entirety as the Guru's work and released the first complete Punjabi translation of the writings of Guru Gobind Singh, plus other scholarly works about the life and teachings of Guru Gobind Singh."
    Dasam Granth
    Some portions of the Dasam Granth have not been fully accepted by some Sikhs. However, most Sikh groups, including all of the older organisations, accept it in its entirety.

    At one stage it was debated whether to divide the book. This question arose because the original writings of the Tenth Guru had not been joined into one granth, but were separate. They had been collected into a single Granth by Bhai Mani Singh. Bhai Mehtab Singh of Mirankot (who was charged by the Panth to capture or assassinate Massa Ranghar who had established himself in the holy Golden Temple at Amritsar and was desecrating its sanctity) suggested to the leaders of his community that if he came back victorious in his mission, the book should be preserved in one volume, otherwise it may divided into two. Mehtab Singh was successful in putting Massa Ranghar to an ignoble death and hence the volume was preserved as it now is. This, however, as the Sikh savant, Bhai Kahan Singh points out, is a most arbitrary way of settling a point of such literary and theological significance. Moreover, a single man's point of view should not have prevailed - especially of a military hero, or even a Jathedar in search of martyrdom, in preference to the viewpoint of the theologians and scholars who were still discussing the point.

    From 1892 to 1897, eminent scholars assembled at the Akal Takht, Amritsar, to study the various printed Dasam Granths and prepare an authoritative version. They consulted as many as 32 editions before preparing the version that is currently in circulation.Dasam Granth
    The Singh Sabha are responsible for the version which is autheticated today. But it would be oversimplistic and naive to overlook there were originally during time of Singh Sabha reform, 32 different Granths, while today only 3 can be accounted for.


    Udasi Baba Virsa Singh Of Gobind Sadan


    Gobind Sadan

  10. #10

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    "I had never heard the phrase Sanatan Sikh before I visited this forum."
    For someone who is a professed Sikh and is that ignorant of their basic history, I find very sad. How can you possibly promote or represent something when you don't even have the basic knowledge? Perhaps you feel that knowledge is dangerous and should be kept..."secret?"

    I cannot understand the purpose of some people like Harjas Kaur who want to misrepresent the sikhism. Anyhow, everybody has to meet their maker, and answer for their deeds.

    Why would anyone suffer from the God for providing an education? Dear, it was not I who misrepresented the Sikhism. The history is there for all who care to look. Just investigate for yourself, if you care at all about Sikh heritage as a reality and not as a fabrication.


    Perhaps you didn't know this either:

    The Vishwa Hindu Parishad was formed in 1964 by Swami Chinmayananda as president and former Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) member S.S. Apte as general secretary, with Master Tara Singh as one of the co-founders[2].The following aims and objectives were set before the Parishad...
    • To consolidate and strengthen the Hindu Society.
    • To protect, promote and propagate Hindu values of life, the ethical and the spiritual in the context of modern times.
    • To keep in touch with all the Hindus living abroad, and to organize and help them in all possible ways in protecting their Hindu identity also popularly known as Hindutva. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishva_Hindu_Parishad
    And who is Master Tara Singh that this would even be relevant? Well, that's a long story. You should read it sometime.



    Master Tara Singh said:
    “Protection of Dharma is our Dharma. Khalsa Panth was born for that purpose. Never have I left Hinduism. Guru Govind Singh has produced a lot of Gurumukhi literature based on Vedas, Puranas and the like. Are we to leave all that? In fact Hindus and Sikhs are not two separate communities. Name is Sikh and beard… Mona (non beard) Sikh and Sevak… That is all… Sikhs live if Hinduism exists. If Sikhs live Hinduism lives. They are not two separate communities. They are one indeed. Lack of mutual confidence has been a small problem. This situation must be put to an end. I want to see that. A Hindu revival movement is very necessary and it will certainly come up. http://www.jstor.org/pss/3517547
    It's really sad so many political divisions from British Raj and also from within the Nation of India divide true brotherhood and unity. Regardless of anyone's opinions, knowledge is never a bad thing. You may agree or disagree. But please, never choose to remain ignorant.

    At last the nation is paying tribute to the memory of one of its great freedom fighters, Master Tara Singh, by adorning his portrait in Parliament's Central Hall at the hands of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee on Aug. 21. Master Tara Singh was the leader of the Akali Dal and the sole spokesman for the Sikhs. He had such authority that one word from him could seal the fate of millions of Hindus and Sikhs.

    No history book contains any [appropriate] reference to the role of Master Tara Singh. He got half of the Punjab (now Punjab, Haryana and Himachal Pradesh) integrated into India. He was born in a Hindu family in Haryal village, near Rawalpindi, on Jun. 24, 1885. Nanak Chand, as he was then known, got converted to Sikhism at the age of 14 and was baptized by amrit [sweet initiation water] and given the name Tara Singh. It is said that next to Maharaja Ranjit Singh (1780-1839) no Sikh had such vast influence in the community as Master Tara Singh.

    Every Sikh leader of modern times was in fact his creation. At one time Partap Singh Kairon was his secretary. India's first defence minister, Sardar Baldev Singh, was his nominee. Sardar Swaran Singh was made a minister and leader of the Akali Assembly Party in Lahore by him. Sardar Hukam Singh, who rose to be the speaker of the Lok Sabha, owed his entry into parliament to Masterji. Sardar Buta Singh was picked up by him and made member of parliament in 1962.

    The demand for partition of the Punjab was first mooted by Master Tara Singh when Strafford Cripps announced his Draft Declaration in 1942. In a memorandum to the Cripps Mission he demanded: 'The Sikhs cannot attain their rightful position or can effectively protect their interest unless the Punjab is redistributed into two provinces with River Ravi as boundary between them. If you can separate provinces from India for the domination of Muslims, how can you refuse to separate a big area for protection of Sikhs from the rule of a single community?'

    To counteract the Muslim League demand for a sovereign Muslim State, the Akali Dal put forward the demand for a Sikh state. The main aim of the demand was to insist upon the partition of Punjab. Later, they put forward the Azad Punjab scheme. The Punjab had a coalition government headed by Khizr Hayat Khan with the Congress and Akali Dal as partners. In Mar. 1947, the Muslim League succeeded in getting the resignation of Khizr Hayat Khan in order to install its own government. It was due to Master Tara Singh's tough stand that a Muslim League ministry could not be installed in the Punjab.

    Master Tara Singh took a great risk but there are political thinkers who concede that his action changed the course of free India's history. The Muslims took to communal riots in Lahore and western parts of the Punjab. Thousands of Sikhs and Hindus were murdered and their homes razed. In vengeance they destroyed Master Tara Singh's ancestral home and killed 59 of his relatives. The Hindu leadership, including Bhim Sen Sachar, Gopi Chand Bhargava, Mahasha Krishan, and Mahasha Khushal Chand, formed an anti-Pakistan front, with Master Tara Singh as its sole dictator.

    The British tried to influence Sikh leaders to side with the Muslim League. Jinnah went all out to win over the Sikhs and offered them an autonomous state within Pakistan. Master Tara Singh spurned all offers and announced his decision to stay with India. The demand for the partition of Bengal, which was also a Muslim majority province, was mooted by the Hindu leaders at the behest of Master Tara Singh. http://www.sikhtimes.com/bios_082103a.html
    Just because you never heard about something,doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact is, in the very recent past was a vastly different Sikh identity and it is no misrepresentation to share the historical truth.

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