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Thread: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

  1. #1
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    Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    Warning: The Tat Khalsa Sikhs may want to skip reading this post.

    It was a personal quest to learn about the Hindu-Sikh acrimony which led me to gather the following information. It is by no means meant to hurt or disrespect anyone, and the Tat Khalsa Sikhs should heed the above warning. Also, the interested readers may access more information at the two links provided below, and from additional material available on the internet, to draw their own conclusions.

    The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism – which arose from the Sanatan Dharma and Vedic culture - to be a denomination of Sanatan Dharma. In the early days of Sikh history, the Gurudwaras were managed by Mahants (caretakers). Frescos of Hindu deities, murtis of Hindu deities as well as images of Sikh gurus formed part of the sanctum. When Punjab fell under the British rule, hordes of missionaries moved in to harvest the lost souls in the name of Jesus. A Sikh religious administrative body, Sanatan Sikh Sabha was established in 1873 by Sikhs in Amritsar to counter the rising influence of, and conversion to Christianity.

    The British Raj ruled by creating divisions through tactics which included altering and editing scriptures to divide and conquer and keep the populace subjugated, ignorant and subservient. All forms of Indian Nationalism and unifying aspects like religion were manipulated and suppressed. It is alleged that Max Arthur McAuliffe, the British Deputy Commissioner of Punjab, saw an opportunity with the establishment of Sanatan Sikh Sabha and engineered the formation of a second Sabha, Tat Khalsa (the 'True Khalsa') Singh Sabha in Lahore in 1879, as a political rival to the Sanatan Sikh Sabha. Whereas the Sanatan Dharma Sikhism acknowledges its roots in the Vedic culture and believes in Hindu-Sikh unity; the Tat Khalsas are focused more on having a Sikh identity, separate from the non-Sikh Punjabis. So, the motive for the formation of this Tat Sabha were primarily to push Sikhs over to a pro-Muslim stance, put a wedge between the Sikhs and non-Sikh Punjabis thereby weakening the Hindus, and also to propagate the belief among the Sikh soldiers serving the Raj that their Guru’s prophecies coincided with the interests of the British Raj. It was a deliberate act in their “divide and rule” tactics and to get the Tat Khalsa Sikhs to be loyal to the British Raj.

    Soon after their establishment, the Tat Khalsas with the institutional support of the British Raj, started easing out the mahants from the management of the Gurudwaras; using force when needed. To promote a Sikh identity separate from the former glory of Hindu-Sikh days, a reform movement was initiated - older source material was suppressed, marginalized, denied, invalidated or even, as in case of Gurbilas, banned outright. Sikh scriptures were reinterpreted to expunge any hint of Hindu-ness in them. All Hindu frescos and murtis were removed from the Gurudwaras and all practices deemed to be Hindu were discontinued. In 1905, the murtis removed from the Golden temple included lifesized murtis of Lord Vishnu, of Chandi-Durga, of Lord Krishna, and of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.

    Over the last few decades, the newer generations of Sikhs have been indoctrinated into the Tat Khalsa mold. They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity. They are to conform to owing their allegiance to the Guru Granth Sahibji only, to the total exclusion of all other religious/spiritual literature. This effort has been very successful as most of the mainstream Sikhs today, subscribe to the Tat Khalsa Sabha. Other sects are frowned upon and dealt with harshly, sometimes with the elimination of their leaders. Although, the seat of spiritual authority emanates from the Golden Temple; in North America, there is always a tussle between the conformist and reformist minded Tat Khalsas, which is at times settled violently. Some of the alternate sikh sects are Sanatani, Udasi (ascetics, founded by Sri Chand, Guru Nanak’s eldest son), Nirmal (a scholarly sect), Nirankari, Namdhari (have a living guru), Ramgharia (carpenter community), Mazhabi (Dalits, lower caste converts from the janitor community), Ravidasi (Dalits, lower caste members from the cobbler community) etc.

    A murti or a book is an inanimate object. It is only the respect/reverence/faith of a sincere devotee which makes them divine. The devotion of the faithful Sikhs and Hindus, makes the Guru Granth Sahibji and the murtis of Ram and Krishan and other deities worshipable. For either side to deny the presence of the same divine force in a murti or the holy book, is to deny the obvious and to foster separate-mindedness.

    Sanatan Sikhi link:

    Tat Khasla Link:
    Last edited by Believer; 13 September 2010 at 08:23 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    Live and learn is my motto. Stagnation leads to spiritual blindness.

  3. #3
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    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    All I have to say is that tamperring with scriptures to divide a faith is just about the sickest thing I can imagine anyone doing.

  4. #4

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    yeah i have also experienced this ..
    means see there are some sikhs who sing bhajans and devotional songs of krishna,durga,rama etc.

    and there are sikhs who consider gurbani is only thing...
    while it also contains the rama,krishna etc.

    also i feel confused how sikhs deny to idol worship while maharaja Ranjit Singh
    made a golden covering on the jwalamukhi temple in north , and He HIMSELF ,
    shree guru Gobing Singh Ji wrote "Chandi di vaar" (poem praising goddess Durga.)

    although being a hindu though i have always been to gurudwara as its near to home and any time we get a chance to be in amritsar we visit golden temple for sure..
    i dont know how bitterness came in sikhs??

  5. #5

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    "They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity."
    LOL. You're not exaggerating either. It's precisely because these people are terrified of what may come bubbling up from the surface of long buried historical realities that the ideologues who have denied and suppressed these facts create this ridiculous conspiracy theory about the evil Hindus.

    I've been contacted by all these people, GURSIKH organization, and that twit who makes the "RSS put all the Hindu imagery into Sikhism" videos. Trust me, Alex Jones has nothing on Tat Khalsas. I was just in communication with a guy trying to convince me everything was all fault of the evil Bahmins. So I asked, "what bahmins? And he said, "Indian government." So I informed him that current ruling family of India is Christian. To which he replied, "No, they're definitely bahmins." "How so?" I asked. "Because of bahminvaadi." Oh.

    Then I asked, "Well what about Manmohan Singh?" Honest question. To which he replied, "He's a bahmin too."

    See this purataan Nihang Dumalla with all those chakrs? Where did the chakr come from anyway? I'll give you a clue...

  6. #6

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    "I had never heard the phrase Sanatan Sikh before I visited this forum."
    For someone who is a professed Sikh and is that ignorant of their basic history, I find very sad. How can you possibly promote or represent something when you don't even have the basic knowledge? Perhaps you feel that knowledge is dangerous and should be kept..."secret?"

    I cannot understand the purpose of some people like Harjas Kaur who want to misrepresent the sikhism. Anyhow, everybody has to meet their maker, and answer for their deeds.

    Why would anyone suffer from the God for providing an education? Dear, it was not I who misrepresented the Sikhism. The history is there for all who care to look. Just investigate for yourself, if you care at all about Sikh heritage as a reality and not as a fabrication.

    Perhaps you didn't know this either:

    The Vishwa Hindu Parishad was formed in 1964 by Swami Chinmayananda as president and former Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) member S.S. Apte as general secretary, with Master Tara Singh as one of the co-founders[2].The following aims and objectives were set before the Parishad...
    • To consolidate and strengthen the Hindu Society.
    • To protect, promote and propagate Hindu values of life, the ethical and the spiritual in the context of modern times.
    • To keep in touch with all the Hindus living abroad, and to organize and help them in all possible ways in protecting their Hindu identity also popularly known as Hindutva.
    And who is Master Tara Singh that this would even be relevant? Well, that's a long story. You should read it sometime.

    Master Tara Singh said:
    “Protection of Dharma is our Dharma. Khalsa Panth was born for that purpose. Never have I left Hinduism. Guru Govind Singh has produced a lot of Gurumukhi literature based on Vedas, Puranas and the like. Are we to leave all that? In fact Hindus and Sikhs are not two separate communities. Name is Sikh and beard… Mona (non beard) Sikh and Sevak… That is all… Sikhs live if Hinduism exists. If Sikhs live Hinduism lives. They are not two separate communities. They are one indeed. Lack of mutual confidence has been a small problem. This situation must be put to an end. I want to see that. A Hindu revival movement is very necessary and it will certainly come up.
    It's really sad so many political divisions from British Raj and also from within the Nation of India divide true brotherhood and unity. Regardless of anyone's opinions, knowledge is never a bad thing. You may agree or disagree. But please, never choose to remain ignorant.

    At last the nation is paying tribute to the memory of one of its great freedom fighters, Master Tara Singh, by adorning his portrait in Parliament's Central Hall at the hands of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee on Aug. 21. Master Tara Singh was the leader of the Akali Dal and the sole spokesman for the Sikhs. He had such authority that one word from him could seal the fate of millions of Hindus and Sikhs.

    No history book contains any [appropriate] reference to the role of Master Tara Singh. He got half of the Punjab (now Punjab, Haryana and Himachal Pradesh) integrated into India. He was born in a Hindu family in Haryal village, near Rawalpindi, on Jun. 24, 1885. Nanak Chand, as he was then known, got converted to Sikhism at the age of 14 and was baptized by amrit [sweet initiation water] and given the name Tara Singh. It is said that next to Maharaja Ranjit Singh (1780-1839) no Sikh had such vast influence in the community as Master Tara Singh.

    Every Sikh leader of modern times was in fact his creation. At one time Partap Singh Kairon was his secretary. India's first defence minister, Sardar Baldev Singh, was his nominee. Sardar Swaran Singh was made a minister and leader of the Akali Assembly Party in Lahore by him. Sardar Hukam Singh, who rose to be the speaker of the Lok Sabha, owed his entry into parliament to Masterji. Sardar Buta Singh was picked up by him and made member of parliament in 1962.

    The demand for partition of the Punjab was first mooted by Master Tara Singh when Strafford Cripps announced his Draft Declaration in 1942. In a memorandum to the Cripps Mission he demanded: 'The Sikhs cannot attain their rightful position or can effectively protect their interest unless the Punjab is redistributed into two provinces with River Ravi as boundary between them. If you can separate provinces from India for the domination of Muslims, how can you refuse to separate a big area for protection of Sikhs from the rule of a single community?'

    To counteract the Muslim League demand for a sovereign Muslim State, the Akali Dal put forward the demand for a Sikh state. The main aim of the demand was to insist upon the partition of Punjab. Later, they put forward the Azad Punjab scheme. The Punjab had a coalition government headed by Khizr Hayat Khan with the Congress and Akali Dal as partners. In Mar. 1947, the Muslim League succeeded in getting the resignation of Khizr Hayat Khan in order to install its own government. It was due to Master Tara Singh's tough stand that a Muslim League ministry could not be installed in the Punjab.

    Master Tara Singh took a great risk but there are political thinkers who concede that his action changed the course of free India's history. The Muslims took to communal riots in Lahore and western parts of the Punjab. Thousands of Sikhs and Hindus were murdered and their homes razed. In vengeance they destroyed Master Tara Singh's ancestral home and killed 59 of his relatives. The Hindu leadership, including Bhim Sen Sachar, Gopi Chand Bhargava, Mahasha Krishan, and Mahasha Khushal Chand, formed an anti-Pakistan front, with Master Tara Singh as its sole dictator.

    The British tried to influence Sikh leaders to side with the Muslim League. Jinnah went all out to win over the Sikhs and offered them an autonomous state within Pakistan. Master Tara Singh spurned all offers and announced his decision to stay with India. The demand for the partition of Bengal, which was also a Muslim majority province, was mooted by the Hindu leaders at the behest of Master Tara Singh.
    Just because you never heard about something,doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact is, in the very recent past was a vastly different Sikh identity and it is no misrepresentation to share the historical truth.

  7. #7

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    All I have to say is that tamperring with scriptures to divide a faith is just about the sickest thing I can imagine anyone doing.

    Well this is the key issue. And it has been under the radar for decades.

    I cannot understand the purpose of some people like Harjas Kaur who want to misrepresent the sikhism.

    Anyone simply analyzing the situation, where the degree of suppression in a community is such that lifelong Sikhs have never even heard of the alternative history tells you something. Where anyone who simply presents the suppressed view is vilified as "misrepresenting" the faith and answerable to God as if commiting a sin.

    Misrepresent: "to represent falsely; give an untrue or misleading idea of; to be an improper or bad representative of."

    As I do not claim to represent the mainstream, but say directly I am Sanatan...and a Sikh have never even heard of sanatan Sikhism but decides that ANY OTHER PRESENTATION OR UNDERSTANDING of Sikhism apart from the mainstream is false and untrue, tells you something.

    So what is the truth? Truth represents itself. It is an unqualified defense to an accusation of falsehood.

    Adi Granth Our Living Guru is not for Research
    Dr. Pashaura Singh and Dr. W.H. McLeod please note!
    An Essay by Dr. S.S. Sodhi

    So we can see from the above, in academia, certain viewpoints are simply not allowed to be questioned, analyzed or even discussed. Why is this, if truth is it's own powerful defense?

    Why would a PhD thesis which challenged the mainstream Singh Sabha view result in mass protests of Sikhs and censure from Akal Takht Sahib directly, calls for his firing, invalidation of his doctorate, and issuing tankhah with threat of excommunication?

    "To prove that Kachi Bani is not different from the Sachi/Pakki Bani of Adi Sri Gurū Granth Sahib, revisions in Mul Mantar and the creation of doubts on the revelatory character of Bani as enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib have become the fastest growing epidemic in the western universities. It was due to such ridiculous and wrong interpretations of Bani by using unauthentic sources; Dr. Pashaura Singh’s Ph.D. thesis caused a strong reaction from Sikh researchers and intellectuals all over the world because of the poor quality of research and misrepresentation of the Sikh history & Sikh Scripture merely on conjectural basis and unauthentic documents...

    In a historic judgement delivered by Professor Manjit Singh, Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht, the highest spiritual and temporal authority/ seat of Sikhs, Pashaura Singh was declared guilty of five charges of blasphemy. Pashaura Singh had made a number of baseless observations in his Ph.D. thesis, "The Text and Meaning of the Adi Granth", submitted to the University of Toronto in 1991, to please his supervisor who is well known as an adversary of Sikhism and with an eye on a university job...

    The judgment says that Pashaura Singh had attacked the authenticity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, which had deeply hurt the sentiments of the Panth: He had also levelled baseless charges against the Fourth and the Fifth Masters, saying that they had made alterations in the Mul Mantra as well as linguistic and theological changes in the bani of Guru Nanak...

    As a Sikh scholar, you were expected to produce literature to promote the welfare of all, with commitment to Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Guru Panth. But what happened was exactly the opposite of this. Taking cognizance of the overall situation in the Panth, Sri Akal Takht is pleased to issue the following orders for your compliance:-

    1) You shall not publish this controversial thesis in the present form, nor shall you authorize anyone else to publish it.

    2) The charges and the objections relating to doctrines or presentation, raised by Sikh scholars against this thesis, have been pointed out, and accepted by you. Some of these have been given to you in writing. These shall be removed by you in letter and spirit from the thesis. And in case the thesis is to be published in the future, it will be done according to Gurmat with full regard for the sentiments of the Sikh community.

    3 ) In deference to the sentiments of the Guru Panth you shall also not publish any other such objectionable material as produced by you earlier. In the future you shall ever keep in mind the sentiments for the ascendancy of the Panth and salvation of all, and conduct only such research on Gurbani and Sikh history, as would lead to blessings of the Living Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Guru Panth.
    This is the courage of conviction that truth can withstand scrutiny? Or it is bullying an opinion into conformity with the mainstream in order to maintain a historical suppression? Well, is it any wonder that an entire generation has never even heard of the sanatan alternative? because the issues at stake regarding the doctoral work of WH Mcleod and Dr. Pashaura Singh, for example, who challenged the mainstream view have to do as much with Singh Sabha alterations and WHICH bir such as Kartarpur bir may or may NOT be authentic, but is bundled up neatly in a little package by Singh Sabha scholars to be blindly believed in and never dared questioned.

    And since this is an intellectual forum open to discussions of philosophy, I will point out those "suppressed" questions regarding alterations and involving the Singh Sabha and the British Raj creation of a new religion and blatant hostility and renunciation of Hinduism.

  8. #8

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    All I have to say is that tamperring with scriptures to divide a faith is just about the sickest thing I can imagine anyone doing.

    The Apocryphal Mirabai Hymn:
    "of the collections of hymns or pothis prior to Guru Granth Sahib are still extant. They are in the possession of the descendants of Guru Amar Das, Nanak III. Besides the compositions of the Gurus, these pothis contain compositions of some of the saints as well among them Kabir, Namdev. Ravidas and Bhikhan...

    Views differ on whether Guru Arjan included the sayings of the Bhagats exactly as received or whether he used his discretion in choosing his contributors and in bringing their contributions to conform, in general at least, to the tenets of Sikhism. One thing is certain. Bhagats in the Guru Granth Sahib are represented by their hymns, lauding Nirguna Brahm, i.e. God without attributes. Worshippers of Sarguna Brahm, of His Rama and Krsna incarnations, were excluded. Vaisnava bhaktas such as Chaitanya and Mira Bai are examples."
    Was it? We already know from the Gurbani directly God is both nirgun AND sargun. Sarguna is never denied. In fact the sargun avtaray as praised as the Absolute Lord. So what's this claim Guru Sahibaan deliberately did NOT include bani of bhagats who praised the God as Sarguna? such as Mirabai?

    For one thing it creates an illogical division. Guru Sahibaan accepted bani of some Vaishnavis but not others, not those which praised the God as sarguna, even as whole of Gurbani is praise of the God as Rama, Krishna, Govinda, Murare, Mukunda?

    Strange...but it gets even stranger. Truth is that which can be supported by facts. Suppression is that which hysterically denies them. Misrepresentation is that which is false. So let's see what is going on with Mirabai... So we have to look at the controversy involving the Kartarpur Pothi.

    "The hymn of Mirabai in the Kartarpur Pothi appears at the end of the rag Maru section. Sahib Singh argued at length that this hymn was not present in the manuscripts complied before 1675 but was inserted in some manuscripts after the death of Guru Tegh Bahadur. Pashaura Singh notes the hymns presence in the Kartarpur Pothi but claims that "the decision to exclude Mirabai's hymn must have been made by Guru Arjan himself." In his view the hymn was crossed out immediately after it was recorded.

    To evaluate the conflicting claims, we must look closely at the Kartarpur Pothi text. The rag Maru section contains sixteen hymns. It opens with a set of nine hymns by Kabir which is followed by those of Namdev, Kabir, Jaidev, Kabir, Ravidas, Ravidas, and Mirabai...

    It seems that the hymn of Mirabai was recorded in the rag Maru section along with the preceding hymn of Ravidas, which begins, "Sukh sagar suritaru chintamani kamdhain basi ja ke re (God is the Ocean of bliss, the tree under which all wishes are fulfilled, the wish-fulfilling stone, and it is under His control that the wish-fulfilling cow stands," folio 810. This hymn appears in the Goindval Pothis in the rag Sorathi (folio 167) section and was copied in the Kartarpur Pothiin the rag Sorathi section (folio 498)."
    ~The making of Sikh scripture By Gurinder Singh Mann p. 115
    So we have Mirabai bani in the Goindval Pothis but not in the final Kartapur Pothi. Well, actually it is there, and in the same sequence but it was deleted out. Now, interpretation has been made this was done by the Guru Sahib and implicitly because Mirabai was a Krishna bhakta...even though Krishna is referred to as the Satguru for Dwapara Yuga. Strange.

    So, what's contentious about the Kartarpuri bir? After all, Dr. Pashaura Singh was publically given tankhiya and made to apologize, recant and alter his thesis. It was directly and publicly denied that any alterations were EVER made to Gurbani. It has been publicly claimed Mirabai's bani had no place in Sikhism because she praised the sargun Krishna. What authority exactly does Kartarpur Pothi have in this equation? Everything. Because it is officially claimed by the Sikh hierarchy to the the original Adi Granth.

    "Pothi Sahib (known today as the Kartarpur Bir) was kept by the Sixth Master Guru Hargobind in his house. From here it was stolen by his grandson Dhir Mal who intended to use it to further his claims on the succession of the Guruship. Some thirty years later the followers of the Ninth Master, Guru Tegh Bahadur forcibly recovered it, but were instructed by the Guru to return it. They placed it in the shallow river bed of the Satluj River. From here Dhir Mal recovered it, miraculously it was undamaged.

    Throughout the eighteenth century it most likely remained with Dhir Mal's family, the Sodhis of Kartarpur, thus the name Kartarpur Bir (Bir means volume). The Holy Book next emerged from obscurity in 1849. In that year following the annexation of Punjab, the volume together with its golden stand were discovered by the British in the custody of the Lahore royal court. An application was received from Sodhi Sadhu Singh of Kartarpur and in 1850 the volume was returned to his family. The Kartarpur Bir is preserved to this day and installed monthly for worshippers.

    An unauthorized edition of the Guru Granth Sahib know as the Banno Bir also exists. Guru Arjan Dev gave this copy of the Granth Sahib to Bhai Banno one of his disciples to take to Lahore for binding. Bhai Banno kept this volume and wrote in some verses of Sudras and Mirabai which it is believed had been rejected by the Guru as well as a few hymns allegedly to be by Guru Nanak at the end of his Granth. Guru Arjan Dev did not approve the Banno Bir. This copy is still in the possession of the descendants of Bhai Banno." History of Sri Guru Granth Sahib
    A few things immediately strike one as curious. 1. A second Adi Granth copy contains hymns of Mirabai. But these are claimed to be added by someone other than Guru Sahib and against the Guru's wishes. 2.The accepted Adi Granth copy also has hymns of Mirabai, but it is crossed out . Local Goindval Pothis written in the same time frame have hymn of Mirabai...but this is not explained.

    Do you suppose the mystery deepens when the Kartarpur Bir, "The Holy Book next emerged from obscurity in 1849. In that year following the annexation of Punjab, the volume together with its golden stand were discovered by the British in the custody of the Lahore royal court." Isn't that coincidentally the time of the Singh Sabha and in the hands of the British?

    And there is more.

    "The Sikh religion community has the unique distinction of having in its possession a manuscript of its original Scripture, namely the Adi Granth kept at Kartarpur in Jalander District...

    Many erasures, some filled in, but several lines completely blotted out in greenish ink. Some erasures were left white, mostly by one hand, but size carefulness varies greatly. Much correction in the margins the opening Mantra “ 1Ek Om Sat Nam” occurs twice. The one in this very beginning is said to be Guru Arjan’s writing but there is no signature while the one somewhere in the middle is said to be Guru’s Hargobind;s. of the former, the index says it is the Guru’s “Nishan.” Many pages are blank, of the same paper all numbered. No agreement as to why left blanks according to the gyani. Among the blank pages at the very beginning is a page of script, which has never been deciphered even by Kahn Singh of Nabha, according to our Giani...

    The problem of book is acute; this considered to be the Adi Granth the “original” or only copy in existence of the “original”…….

    But it bears neither dates nor any scribes name nor is its history clear. Its authenticity cannot be proved. it is said the guru Tegh Bahadur hid it once for fourteen days in the River Beas, to protect it ……. But there are no signed of water damage...

    Many scholars however, claimed originality for the Bhai Banno edition the Kari (Bitter) Bir, because it contains three passages missing from the Kartarpure manuscripts. Two of these the hymns Mira Bai and that of Sur Das are important only as textual problems; but in the section in the Ram kali Rag by the fifth Guru has ritual and theological implications as well. In it Guru Arjan describe the puberty rites conducted for Hargovind, when his head was shaved according to the old Hindu rites of chaula, or tonsure. Only the preliminary verse is given in the Kartarpur manuscript, followed by blank pages.

    The solution of each question seems impossible because of thee inaccessibility of these manuscripts, especially the Kartarpur one. A basic problem is that of the owner ship and custody of the Kartarpur Granth itself. Why did the ninth Guru sanction private ownership Guru himself., and in the hands of one who tried to assassinate him?

    The effect has been set back to scientific investigation in to the actual original text of the Kartarpur Granth. For example, a few years ago an attempt was made to photograph every page of this Granth. A non-Sikh scholar secured special apparatus. This attempt to preserve the text in case anything happened to the original would seem reasonable and helpful, but it caused tremendous stir among Nihangs and other fanatical groups. This reaction was to the effect that “you will photograph the naked body of our Guru over our dead bodies!” so the matter was dropped.

    The obvious place to keep the Kartarpur Granth would be in the treasury of the Golden Temple at Amritsar, or in the department of Historical Manuscripts at Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar. It would then be open to qualified investigation. Special photography might even decipher the words and texts blotted out.
    Textual Criticism of the Kartarpur Granth By Dr C H Loehlin

  9. #9
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    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post

    See this purataan Nihang Dumalla with all those chakrs? Where did the chakr come from anyway? I'll give you a clue...

    i bow to your sense of logic ,and how you relates the stuff

    ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
    मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥
    I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna or Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme 434

  10. #10

    Re: Sikh Sabhas Demystified

    i bow to your sense of logic ,and how you relates the stuff

    ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
    मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥
    I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna or Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme 434
    It isn't about Ganesh dear. It's about the Sudarshana Chakr. It's just that murthi of Ganesh is showing how it is clearly worn on the head and spun on the finger. Reason Gurbani of Dasam Granth claims not to adore Ganesh in the beginning is because Ganapati is traditionally invoked first. But that practice varies within sects. Vaishnavs for example some do, some don't with rationale being some teach there is no need to worship the demi-gods since all the demi-gods reside in the One Absolute.

    Now, the issue was the Sudarshana Chakra: MahaVishnu and the Vishnu avatars are NOT the same as demi-gods. So per certain sects will emphasis some worship over others, or even in case of Arya Samaj, not even do murthi pooj as a Hindu organization.

    ਮੇਰੋ ਬਾਪੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਤੂ ਧਨੁ ਕੇਸੌ ਸਾਂਵਲੀਓ ਬੀਠੁਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    maero baap maadhho thoo dhhan kaesa saanvaleeou beethulaae ||1|| rehaao ||
    O my Father, Lord of wealth, blessed are You, long-haired, dark-skinned, my darling. ||1||Pause||

    ਕਰ ਧਰੇ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਗਜ ਹਸਤੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਉਧਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥
    kar dhharae chakr baikunth thae aaeae gaj hasathee kae praan oudhhaareealae ||
    You hold the steel chakra in Your hand; You came down from Heaven, and saved the life of the elephant.

    ਦੁਹਸਾਸਨ ਕੀ ਸਭਾ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਅੰਬਰ ਲੇਤ ਉਬਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥
    dhuhasaasan kee sabhaa dhropathee anbar laeth oubaareealae ||1||
    In the court of Duhsaasan, You saved the honor of Dropati, when her clothes were being removed.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 988

    Now clearly it's no mystery who the Gurbani is referring to here. This is a God with perceivable form, who is called Keshava (Krishna NAAM), who resides in Vaikunth (Vishnu) and holds a chakr (Vishnu) and who saved honor of Dropadi (Krishan avatar of Vishnu.

    So here is where the Chakr comes from. Like the Khanda, it is an ancient weapon of the Hindu people and comes from the scriptures descriptions of the Gods who are all geared out in weapons to battle evil and triumph.

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