Creative Gurbani Translations

[Believer]

Request: The Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha visitors to this thread may want to skip reading this post. If not, I request you not to respond to this post, as that will inevitably start a war of words. I am just looking for data points from SD followers, who are involved with Gurudwara services. Thank you.

In the last few days, we had a jatha from Delhi stop by at the local Gurudwara to perform kirtan. During the course of this kirtan, the names of Ram and Gopal were part of the Gurbani shabds. While explaining the meaning of the shabds, the Granthi said that Ram in this context was not the son of Raja Dashrath but the God who is ‘rammaa hua” in every speck of this universe. And Gopal was translated as God, the protector of the universe; and not as Krishna, the protector of cows. I thought these were very creative translations and examples of the stuff that has been talked about in the forum in the past few days. Needless to say that I was a little disappointed with them, but they were just following the official line as dictated to them from the SGPC. Any more data points from others in the forum attending the Gurudwara services? Have we diverged to the point of 'no return'? Comments?

[satay]

Namaste,

What the heck is 'ramaa hua'? If Ram is not Ram then who is Ram in the Granth? Is there another historical figure in India that's named Ram that Guru's were referring to?

These creative translations as you put it are just political propaganda to misguide the youth and to create a wedge between hindus and sikhs. No one is denying that sikhism is a separate religion but the attempts to disassociate sikhism from the background of hinduism are silly. I don't know the purpose of such attempts but I can say that we are not 'beyond the point of no return'. As far as I can tell, in punjab no one cares about these silly attempts. People go on with their spiritual business just like they have been for centuries.

We were taught in school in punjab that Guru Gobind created the khalsa (pure man) to fight the adharmic (muslim) forces in the northern parts of India.

Punjabi men were turning into cowards and dying at that hands of muslims probably because they had never seen the degree of brutality that the muslims were showing. Women were being raped, burned, men and children buried alive in walls and made to sit on hot pots, their body parts cut.

It was then that the Guru created his own 'foze' i.e. army. The army of khalsa, the pure ideal man who was not afraid to sacrifice himself for the land of Bharta, to protect Bharta mata and to protect the men, women and children and to put a stop to the muslim brutality.

He gave the five distinct features to khalsa his army men so that they become a symbol. Anywhere anyone sees a khalsa he would be recognized from far for what he was i.e. khalsa the fighter of Guru's army. He literrally gave them all the same last name, Singh, 'the lion'! It was to create an image, a symbol.

Sawa Laakh Se 1 Ladau, TBE "Gobind Singh" Naam Kahau!!

Such passion such warrior spirit to protect the dharma...and some politically motivated people are now disgracing the same guru! Sickening!

Jo Bole so Nihaal, sat sri akaal!

[Believer]

Thanks for the feedback to give a perspective of the current ground realities in Punjab. It is good to know that the masses are not buying into these 'authorized' translations.

As far as I can tell, in punjab no one cares about these silly attempts. People go on with their spiritual business just like they have been for centuries.

What happens when the Granthis in all the Gurudwaras, which are under the control of the SGPC, keep repeating these distorted/creative translations for generations to come? Isn't it eventually going to make a dent in the general thinking of the Sikh population?

No one is denying that Sikhism is a different religion, but the extent to which they are going, to manufacture a separate identity is sickening, to say the least.

[satay]

namaste,

What happens when the Granthis in all the Gurudwaras, which are under the control of the SGPC, keep repeating these distorted/creative translations for generations to come? Isn't it eventually going to make a dent in the general thinking of the Sikh population?

Well, that's the hope of politically motivated persons and possibly yes, it will make a dent as the new generation gets brain washed. I am scared to think about the future. Will sikhi become another barbaric religion full of hate for the hindus? I hope not.

Let's hope that all parents in punjab don't shun their duty of teaching the religion and its history to their kids. I think that's the only way to keep the generations clean from the political propoganda.

No one is denying that Sikhism is a different religion, but the extent to which they are going, to manufacture a separate identity is sickening, to say the least.

The problem is with some politically motivated people who for some reason or other want to disconnect themselves from hinduism. Their argument is that as long as they are seen as part of hinduism, sikhism will never flourish to the extent it would otherwise. They give example of christianity which was part of judaism but then separated from it to form a separate distinct identity. But look at the history of christianity. Do the sikhs really want the same history as christians?

I don't know, why a hindu should even bother...

[jasdir]

Some says the name of "Ram" is incompleate without the name of "Mata Sita Ji". Thus.. i have never seen "Sia-pati-ram" anywhere written in GGS.

_/\_Jasdir.

[Mana]

Namasté jasdir, All

If I might humbly offer for your consideration:

रम् = ram = diverted.

रामा = rAmA = young and charming woman.

रामा = rAmA = river.

रामा = rAmA = red earth (clay)

Are not derivations, diversions of the river? The change in perspective being the flow of time. By erosion, or dammed; both shift the course of the river.

Most definitely "haTha".

Forgive me Believer, I have no intention of starting any war of words; inspired by this thread I am awestruck by the evidence of God in derivation. Origin.

praNAma

mana

[dharamsingh]

The Granthi is right. He got that verbatim from Bhagat Kabir ji.

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan mėh bẖeḏ hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190||
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||
ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||
page 1374

[Thakurdass]

namaste,
Will sikhi become another barbaric religion full of hate for the hindus? I hope not.

I have tasted this in my childhood days from 80's to 90's. Parents of my sikh classmates themselves use to preach hate doctrine towards hindus.

I don't know, why a hindu should even bother...

If you ignore this little thing now, then you are making your future generations prone to the wrath from the neo sikhs who are completely brainwashed.

Om Tat Sat
Madho dass

[kv_rangan]

Another creative translation. This is the Bani of Gaya Deva the author of Geeta Govindam


Sanskrit verses are implemented here from Geeta Govindam. Remember, I know Sanskrit and hence I can read Devanagari. I can understand. I have made clear translations of these Shabads.

ਗੂਜਰੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਜੈਦੇਵ ਜੀਉ ਕਾ ਪਦਾ ਘਰੁ ੪
गूजरी स्री जैदेव जीउ का पदा घरु ४
Gūjrī sarī Jaiḏev jī▫o kā paḏā gẖar 4
Padas Of Goojaree Shri Jai Dayv Jee, Fourth House:

ਪਰਮਾਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਮਨੋਪਿਮੰ ਸਤਿ ਆਦਿ ਭਾਵ ਰਤੰ ॥
परमादि पुरखमनोपिमं सति आदि भाव रतं ॥
Parmāḏ purakẖmanopimaʼn saṯ āḏ bẖāv raṯaʼn.
In the very beginning, was the Primal Lord, unrivalled, the Lover of Truth and other virtues.

ਪਰਮਦਭੁਤੰ ਪਰਕ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪਰੰ ਜਦਿਚਿੰਤਿ ਸਰਬ ਗਤੰ ॥੧॥
परमदभुतं परक्रिति परं जदिचिंति सरब गतं ॥१॥
Parmaḏ▫bẖuṯaʼn parkariṯ paraʼn jaḏcẖinṯ sarab gaṯaʼn. ||1||
He is absolutely wonderful, transcending creation; remembering Him, all are emancipated. ||1||

ਕੇਵਲ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਮਨੋਰਮੰ ॥
केवल राम नाम मनोरमं ॥
Keval rām nām manormaʼn.
Dwell only upon the beauteous Name of the Lord Raam (ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਮਨੋਰਮੰ),

ਬਦਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਤਤ ਮਇਅੰ ॥
बदि अम्रित तत मइअं ॥
Baḏ amriṯ ṯaṯ ma▫i▫aʼn.

the embodiment of ambrosial nectar and reality.

ਨ ਦਨੋਤਿ ਜਸਮਰਣੇਨ ਜਨਮ ਜਰਾਧਿ ਮਰਣ ਭਇਅੰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
न दनोति जसमरणेन जनम जराधि मरण भइअं ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Na ḏanoṯ jasmarṇen janam jarāḏẖ maraṇ bẖa▫i▫aʼn. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Remembering Him in meditation, the fear of birth, old age and death will not trouble you. ||1||Pause||

ਇਛਸਿ ਜਮਾਦਿ ਪਰਾਭਯੰ ਜਸੁ ਸ੍ਵਸਤਿ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕ੍ਰਿਤੰ ॥
इछसि जमादि पराभयं जसु स्वसति सुक्रित क्रितं ॥
Icẖẖas jamāḏ parābẖ▫yaʼn jas savasṯ sukariṯ kirt▫aʼn.
If you desire to escape the fear of the Yama, then praise the Lord joyfully, and do good deeds.

ਭਵ ਭੂਤ ਭਾਵ ਸਮਬ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਅੰ ਪਰਮੰ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨਮਿਦੰ ॥੨॥
भव भूत भाव समब्यिअं परमं प्रसंनमिदं ॥२॥
Bẖav bẖūṯ bẖāv sam▫bi▫yam parmaʼn parsanmiḏaʼn. ||2||
In the past, present and future, He is always the same; He is the embodiment of supreme bliss. ||2||

ਲੋਭਾਦਿ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਪਰ ਗ੍ਰਿਹੰ ਜਦਿਬਿਧਿ ਆਚਰਣੰ ॥
लोभादि द्रिसटि पर ग्रिहं जदिबिधि आचरणं ॥
Lobẖāḏ ḏarisat par garihaʼn jaḏibiḏẖ ācẖarṇaʼn.
If you seek the path of good conduct, forsake greed, and do not look upon other men's property and women.

ਤਜਿ ਸਕਲ ਦੁਹਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਦੁਰਮਤੀ ਭਜੁ ਚਕ੍ਰਧਰ ਸਰਣੰ ॥੩॥
तजि सकल दुहक्रित दुरमती भजु चक्रधर सरणं ॥३॥
Ŧaj sakal ḏuhkariṯ ḏurmaṯī bẖaj cẖakarḏẖar sarṇaʼn. ||3||
Renounce all evil actions and evil inclinations, and hurry to the Sanctuary of the Lord Chakradhar (ਚਕ੍ਰਧਰ ਸਰਣੰ ). ||3||

ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤ ਨਿਜ ਨਿਹਕੇਵਲਾ ਰਿਦ ਕਰਮਣਾ ਬਚਸਾ ॥
हरि भगत निज निहकेवला रिद करमणा बचसा ॥
Har bẖagaṯ nij nihkevlā riḏ karmaṇā bacẖsā.
Worship (ਭਗਤ) the immaculate Lord Hari (ਹਰਿ), in thought, word and deed.

ਜੋਗੇਨ ਕਿੰ ਜਗੇਨ ਕਿੰ ਦਾਨੇਨ ਕਿੰ ਤਪਸਾ ॥੪॥
जोगेन किं जगेन किं दानेन किं तपसा ॥४॥
Jogen kiʼn jagen kiʼn ḏāḏen kiʼn ṯapsā. ||4||
What is the good of practicing Yoga, giving feasts and charity, and practicing penance? ||4||

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੇਤਿ ਜਪਿ ਨਰ ਸਕਲ ਸਿਧਿ ਪਦੰ ॥
गोबिंद गोबिंदेति जपि नर सकल सिधि पदं ॥
Gobinḏ gobinḏeṯ jap nar sakal siḏẖ paḏaʼn.
Meditate on Lord Govinda [ਗੋਬਿੰਦ], Lord Govinda(thus) [ਗੋਬਿੰਦੇਤਿ] , O man; He is the source of all the spiritual powers of the Siddhas.

ਜੈਦੇਵ ਆਇਉ ਤਸ ਸਫੁਟੰ ਭਵ ਭੂਤ ਸਰਬ ਗਤੰ ॥੫॥੧॥
जैदेव आइउ तस सफुटं भव भूत सरब गतं ॥५॥१॥
Jaiḏev ā▫i▫o ṯas safutaʼn bẖav bẖūṯ sarab gaṯaʼn. ||5||1||
Jai Dayv has openly come to Him; He is the salvation of all, in the past, present and future. ||5||1||

[dharamsingh]

The Granthi is right. He got that verbatim from Bhagat Kabir ji.

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan mėh bẖeḏ hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190||
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||
ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||
page 1374

I found this translation is in fact wrong. There is no mention of "son of Dashrath or anything like that in this shalok. My impression of Kabir after reading his teachings in Guru Granth Sahib is that he is a Vaishnav, and in this passage he is talking about the difference in the way Ram is worshipped by Sants (saints, those who are Ram-oriented) and kautakahaar (those who perform miracles and are focused not on Ram but the miracle, those who chant Ram as a way to access miraculous powers)
Kabir says
ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ
This Ram is chanted by all the sant and kautakahaar.

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ
And he says there is a difference between how the sant and kautakahaar chant Ram.

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ
One was absorbed in the various miraculous powers he wanted to gain, and the other one was absorbed in the One (Ram).

I am not sure why this passage was translated like this. After being showed the correct translation the English one makes no sense.

Anyways, I just wanted to come back and correct myself.