Mr. Hawking's view

[kallol]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté kallol,



And where is this intelligence found in the laws of nature that directs, lays the rules, for concentration as a natural phenomenon to occur?
This always seems to be discounted. Event A occurs and event B happens, yet there seems to be a blind-eye cast ( in science) that does not address the underlying intelligence of the physical laws to apply. If they were completely random, chaotic, then I would have no issue. Yet these laws occur consistently 100% of the time.


Take a watermelon seed. Plant the seed. What do you get? A watermelon, not a goat, mule, or a palm tree. There is order to this universe. From where is this order ( my teacher calls creative intelligence) derived from? From this Universal Intelligence. It is at the very core of a sun's fission ( or fusion ?) process, in the galaxies rotation, in orbits, in the sent of a flower, in the path of a fish, in the lifting of brick. The rules occur consistently with precision and with order and discipline. This is the Cosmic Intelligence that is the wonder. The 'code' that is in everything to operate according to specific laws, that is the intelligence.

praṇām

Dear yajvanji,

There is no denying that there is the intelligence behind any cause and effect. Neither I have overlooked the fact. Rather these cause and effect are inbuilt into the system. That is the oscillations from permanent to temporary to permanent. Many are it's derivations and many subtler variations. However as said by Krishna the material and the intelligence to have the cause and effect are all embedded in the single system. The consciousness by itself has no attributes and is an enabler. The actions are done by the prakriti / aparaprakriti after being enabled by purusha / consciousness / paraprakriti. The actions are based on the derivatives of the higher rule of permanent to temporary to permanent (that is if you deviate from permanent you have to come down to permanent).

The code is written by coder - it is us through the karma create the so called permanent cycle of manifestation and unmanifestation. All the minds with the karma phals contribute to the vibration intensities which decides the rate of manifestations and unmanifestations. These all on the base rule as said earlier.

Just like God (made of purusha & prakriti) all others have the same constituents - purusha and prakriti. Thus the elements remain. So watermelon becomes watermelon. That is the other rule.

The vision is not from micro to macro but from macro to micro. In the first case there are chances that we might get mired in the maze and lose the sight of the top. If we percieve from the top we can drill down with derivations to the bottom.

Love and best wishes

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast� kallol,

Dear yajvanji,

The code is written by coder - it is us through the karma create the so called permanent cycle of manifestation and unmanifestation.

What you offer makes sense , yet please consider the following.
Karma of cause-and-effect only resides in ignorance , there is no cause and effect for the Supreme. If there were then there would be attachment , (some call rāga - being colored by) . The paramount quality of the Supreme is svātantrya. What is this svātantrya ? It is complete freedom, with no boundaries with no attachment; total freedom of will.


Yet you may ask how can there be no karma? For karma to take hold and bind it needs the formula of duality - a cause and effect. If there is total Oneness, where can there be 'another' for an effect to take place. All is one continuous consciousness of the Self. Where would there be not-Self for a reaction to occur ? In Ignorance there is duality. In Fullness of the Self this duality is no more and there is noting to bind the person as he/she is now associated with the Supreme.

Well actions continue don't they? Yes, actions continue yet the seat of repeated actions within the individual is no more, like a seed that has been roasted, it no longer can sprout. Like that, the individual now associated with the Supreme via the Self, and the binding influence of karma is no more.
Only nature is now doing all the actions , and the person now the j�ānī resides outside all of these actions and outside of ignorance. Karma brings one back to this word, the j�ānī does not return.

praṇām

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~
namasté

This is the Cosmic Intelligence that is the wonder. The 'code' that is in everything to operate according to specific laws, that is the intelligence.

Where is this code you speak of ?
The veda-s and upaveda-s are the code book and IMHO so is matṛikācakra and mālinīcakra ( the science of sound via saṃskṛtam)

I do not see this a 'code' ?
This knowledge outlines and describes on how this universe functions.

It takes the wise to understand the true meaning . Just as you look at a computer code, say FORTRAN or C++, you do not understand what it says. Yet to the experienced programmer the language is clear and understands what the program is suppose to accomplish.

The Code in life we are told is at the DNA strand level. That is where the Divine has put much of the intelligence. It is found on all levels of life, plants, animals, bacteria, genes, etc.
Within the galaxies it is found at the sub-atomic levels , the building blocks of grand systems.

Hence this Intelligence works on multiple levels.

praṇām

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

namast� Ao,

,
I actually think we are approaching this issue from the same POV. I am simply trying to employ a more technical, exact, language to the discussion. Probably due to the kind of academic writing I sometimes use at work.

Yes, I can see how this may be attractive - to be exact. Yet this is a pickle. If someone says where exactly is this Cosmic Intelligence. Is it here ? ( and they point to a rock) . Yes, it is there, and also on the ground the rock sits, and in the eye that one sees the rock and in the awareness that allows this perception to take place.
But it is just a rock not a living entity. What holds the rock together? What strong force/weak force ( from physics) keeps the rock a rock?
That is the intelligence.

Well, lets try this again , what about the moon ? ( and the person points to the full moon in the sky). Yes, it is there. But it also is in the light that falls on it from the sun, and the gravity that keeps the moon in its circular orbit 'round the earth, and within the solar system and galaxy it resides in. The total system is an expression of this Cosmic intelligence.

As I see it , it's a bit difficult being exact. Why so? Due to satatoditam - that which has no pause, no break. The exactness is difficult to manage as it is everywhere and that exactness kind of loses its meaning.
Does that mean we do not try and articulate this Comic Intelligence in a meaningful and purposeful way with specificity? Sure , we try. Yet the ~right answer~ is it ( this Comsic Intelligence) is exactly everywhere. From the smallest of the small to the bigest of the big.

praṇām

[kallol]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté kallol,



What you offer makes sense , yet please consider the following.
Karma of cause-and-effect only resides in ignorance , there is no cause and effect for the Supreme. If there were then there would be attachment , (some call rāga - being colored by) . The paramount quality of the Supreme is svātantrya. What is this svātantrya ? It is complete freedom, with no boundaries with no attachment; total freedom of will.


Yet you may ask how can there be no karma? For karma to take hold and bind it needs the formula of duality - a cause and effect. If there is total Oneness, where can there be 'another' for an effect to take place. All is one continuous consciousness of the Self. Where would there be not-Self for a reaction to occur ? In Ignorance there is duality. In Fullness of the Self this duality is no more and there is noting to bind the person as he/she is now associated with the Supreme.

Well actions continue don't they? Yes, actions continue yet the seat of repeated actions within the individual is no more, like a seed that has been roasted, it no longer can sprout. Like that, the individual now associated with the Supreme via the Self, and the binding influence of karma is no more.
Only nature is now doing all the actions , and the person now the jñānī resides outside all of these actions and outside of ignorance. Karma brings one back to this word, the jñānī does not return.

praṇām

Dear Yajvanji,

I feel honoured to discuss these with you. At first go, I thought there is no difference in what you think and I think. Then I came to the last part of the 2nd stanza where I find a variation.

I will take an example, which you know for sure.

I had mentioned that the base rules of the entireity are like :

1. Unmanifested aparaprakriti (energy) and paraparakriti (is in permanent unmanifested form) is the permanent state. Any deviation from there is a temporary state which is not stable and will be coming back to permanent state.
Even in the next level this balancing factor happens, which is why we have the Avatar factors

2. The constituents remain the same. So in all manifested entities we have part aparaprakriti and part paraparakriti.

3. By itself aparaprakriti is inert and does not have means to do anything. By itself paraprakriti cannot anyway do anything (no karma). But with the enablement of paraprakriti, the aparaprakriti does the karma it is meant for. Like fan, light, motor, heater, etc in presence of electricity does their own karma. Even the knowledge of the presence of the aparaprakriti is because of the enablement by paraprakriti.

Now let us take the example.

Under the rule of gravity, the huge ocean and the air over it interact. Due to the different parameters (the state of mind), the air and the ocean, interact and create waves. Now these waves, when they go up, it will seem they are defying the rule !!! But if we increase the time of study, this again comes down to the permanent state.

Again this goes on hapening, but to have the manifested aparaprakriti it needs to cross the threshold limit. This we see, when in the high waves, the water mixes with the air to create the froth (manifested part). The individual parts of that wave do not follow the rule of gravity apparently. The parts contain a mixture of water and air in different proportions.

The micro behaviour (while going up or coming down) also may not be apparently predicted exactly but all works under the overall rule of gravity.

The intelligence is inherent and the material is inside. As Krishna said it is like the spider which spawns out the web from itself and absolves unto itself. At the highest level it is the same. The intelligenec and the material all built into the system, which takes the manifested forms temporarily.

I do not think God intervens in each and everything. I believe, the rules are set which takes care of the system automatically. Just like an automated intelligent system. The micro intelligence works under the macro intelligence (rules) and are the causes and effects we create through the minds.

Your last stanza is correct theoritically. I have put my thought in another thread. Paraprakriti, aparprakriti and mind are permanent entities. The feeling of "I" is only possible to have through mind and consciousness. Without mind there is no "I" as cosciousness / paraprakriti is attributeless and undetermined. The "I" being permanent, pervades the life and death, birth and rebirth. This is only shifting the position of "I" from the body to the permanent consciousnes. But all these shifting is through the permanent mind.

However we need to keep in mind that even Bramha has to take birth and it is not possible to reach the ideal state of God. What we can do is to try to make the mind as neutral as possible, which will lead to almost nil contribution to the vibration. Or in other words, will take a long time to get attached with a compatible body. Higher the intensity of charges faster is the attachement to a body.

Looking for your comments

Love and best wishes

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté kallol,


You have said much in your post above. Let me if I may just offer a few ideas in principle that may add to the conversation. My intent is to extend the thinking and ideas, not correct or suggest your POV is without merit.

• I always appreciate the wave analogy - yet I am reminded that no matter what that wave does it is still the ocean, it is still the expression of the fullness of that ocean , yet it may think it is just a wave.

• re: Intelligence - yes I see your point . It is part-and-parcel part of the total system. This is found in the components and in the whole.

• re: rules are set , you mention. Yes, like auto-pilot that is driving. Makes sense to me. Yet does the Supreme intervene at times? Yes we are told this and for good reasons - to uphold dharma says Kṛṣṇa ( some prefer Kṛṣṇ).

• regarding 'I' - we should talk a bit more as we need to define if the 'I' you mention is indicating the individual or the Universal SELF. If Universal, this ahaṃ's nature is svātantrya and does not need 'mind' to exist.

• regarding brahma - yes I agree brahma is 'born' , but is not the same as brahman that is aja (unborn), akṣara ( imperishable) & akula (without form).

• regarding reaching the ideal form of the Supreme - this I have other views. In duality view of Reality, I can see this point of view. Yet we are an extension of the Supreme. We can experience this fullness of being. There are some blemishes that remain while we are in the body, yet the SELF is non-different then the Supreme.

What is the blemish in the body ? I have been taught that the 'frame' remains due to leśāvidya .

• leśa + avidya gives leśāvidya
• leśa = a small part or portion , particle , atom , little bit or slight trace
• avidya = ignorance

Hence we remain in this frame due to the remains ( a small portion) of ignorance. Some small atomic part. The awareness is perfect and stainless completely residing in the SELF/brahman, yet there are other
parts perhaps that still are infused with ignorance.
Then yes, I agree we are not 100% converted to the Supreme, yet this is remedied ( say the wise) in maha-samādhi.

praṇām

[kallol]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté kallol,


You have said much in your post above. Let me if I may just offer a few ideas in principle that may add to the conversation. My intent is to extend the thinking and ideas, not correct or suggest your POV is without merit.

• I always appreciate the wave analogy - yet I am reminded that no matter what that wave does it is still the ocean, it is still the expression of the fullness of that ocean , yet it may think it is just a wave.

• re: Intelligence - yes I see your point . It is part-and-parcel part of the total system. This is found in the components and in the whole.

• re: rules are set , you mention. Yes, like auto-pilot that is driving. Makes sense to me. Yet does the Supreme intervene at times? Yes we are told this and for good reasons - to uphold dharma says Kṛṣṇa ( some prefer Kṛṣṇ).

• regarding 'I' - we should talk a bit more as we need to define if the 'I' you mention is indicating the individual or the Universal SELF. If Universal, this ahaṃ's nature is svātantrya and does not need 'mind' to exist.

• regarding brahma - yes I agree brahma is 'born' , but is not the same as brahman that is aja (unborn), akṣara ( imperishable) & akula (without form).

• regarding reaching the ideal form of the Supreme - this I have other views. In duality view of Reality, I can see this point of view. Yet we are an extension of the Supreme. We can experience this fullness of being. There are some blemishes that remain while we are in the body, yet the SELF is non-different then the Supreme.

What is the blemish in the body ? I have been taught that the 'frame' remains due to leśāvidya .

• leśa + avidya gives leśāvidya
• leśa = a small part or portion , particle , atom , little bit or slight trace
• avidya = ignorance

Hence we remain in this frame due to the remains ( a small portion) of ignorance. Some small atomic part. The awareness is perfect and stainless completely residing in the SELF/brahman, yet there are other
parts perhaps that still are infused with ignorance.
Then yes, I agree we are not 100% converted to the Supreme, yet this is remedied ( say the wise) in maha-samādhi.

praṇām

Dear yajvanji,

thanks for continuing the discussion. I will try to provide some more inputs to bring in more clarity (hopefully).

1. The wave analogy (point#1) : you are right and this is what it should be. however much of the times the individual particles lose sight of the totality and start see the actions in terms of micro levels whether it is time, space, material and consciousness. When we move to infinite the whole of these attains a different understanding.

2. Yet does the Supreme intervene at times ? Yes he does in the form that is required. But how this intelligence is inbuilt in the system ? I had started a thread " Avatar - How & Why this phenomenon happens ? "
I had put some of my understanding in tp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=48791&postcount=2

Look forward to your suggestions on that.

3. Regarding "I" : You are right the Brahman does not need the mind to exist. No question about it. Again by itself it cannot be known, felt or determined as it is attributeless. It is the enabler and is the source of the knowing. The feeling of "I" comes from there through the mind. Neither can we move (what will move ?) beyond the mind to the undetermined, unfathomable, attributeless brahman. The feelingless feeling is at least difficult to behold.

4. No this is not duality. The whole is a system. The system has prakriti, and purusha. Prakriti contains the fixed number of minds also, which is permanent. It is through the minds the purusha enables the prakriti to act both at macro and micro levels. The mind is the filament fo the bulb, where bulb is the prakriti and electricity is the purusha.

Looking for your comments.

Love and best wishes

[Surya Deva]

Namaste,

Mr Hawkings is entitled to his view. I do not think we should become too preoccupied with what Hawking believes. The ex-nihilo hypothesis is common to Western science and religion. In Western religion god creates the universe out of nothing. In Western science the universe comes out of nothing.

Our ancient Hindu scientists knew that the notion of something coming out of nothing was completely illogical. None of the Darsanas accept this common Western fallacy. The law of cause and effect is central to every darsana(however, they approach cause and effect in different ways) If there is a effect, then there is definitely a cause as well. The Hindu scientists described three types of causes: material cause, efficient cause and instrumental cause. This mirrors the three conditions of knowledge: object of knowledge, knower and instrument of knowledge.

The material cause is what Hawking is dealing with. This is Prakriti and before Prakriti is manfiest she is avyaktam(undifferentiated) This is described in the Nasadiya suktam in the Rig Veda. In her avyakt state prakriti is a in state of pure potentiality. The gunas are in a state of complete equilbruim. Now, as prakriti is in a state of complete equilbruim, she is not capable herself of collapsing her own equilbruim. This collapse only takes place when purusha observes prakriti, as a result prakriti collapses and becomes vykatam and then through the actions of the gunas evolution of the cosmos begins(simultaneous evolution of the mental and physical universe) Thus purusha is the efficient cause. The instrumental cause are the devas which are the cosmic laws which guide the evolution process in order to maintain dharma. The first deva is Brahma(the creative principle)

Hawking has some idea about the material cause and some idea about the instrumental cause, but it is completely ignorant of the efficient cause which is the very first condition(Aristotle's unmoved mover: prime cause) needed to collapse the universe out of its potential state. In quantum mechanics exactly the same problem presents itself on the question of the collapse of the wavefunction. It is observed in the double slit experiment that the collapse seems to take place only upon observation. However, materialist scientists cannot accept this conclusion, so they posit that the collapse must take place prior to observation through hidden variables. However, despite their best efforts, every test of quantum mechanics has shown that the observer is required to collapse the wavefunction. It cannot collapse itself.

In summary: The universe did not just come out of nothing by itself. It was caused to come into being by purusha.

[atanu]

Namaste,

Mr Hawkings is entitled to his view. I do not think we should become too preoccupied with what Hawking believes. The ex-nihilo hypothesis is common to Western science and religion. In Western religion god creates the universe out of nothing. In Western science the universe comes out of nothing.

Our ancient Hindu scientists knew that the notion of something coming out of nothing was completely illogical. None of the Darsanas accept this common Western fallacy. The law of cause and effect is central to every darsana(however, they approach cause and effect in different ways) If there is a effect, then there is definitely a cause as well. The Hindu scientists described three types of causes: material cause, efficient cause and instrumental cause. This mirrors the three conditions of knowledge: object of knowledge, knower and instrument of knowledge.

The material cause is what Hawking is dealing with. This is Prakriti and before Prakriti is manfiest she is avyaktam(undifferentiated) This is described in the Nasadiya suktam in the Rig Veda. In her avyakt state prakriti is a in state of pure potentiality. The gunas are in a state of complete equilbruim. Now, as prakriti is in a state of complete equilbruim, she is not capable herself of collapsing her own equilbruim. This collapse only takes place when purusha observes prakriti, as a result prakriti collapses and becomes vykatam and then through the actions of the gunas evolution of the cosmos begins(simultaneous evolution of the mental and physical universe) Thus purusha is the efficient cause. The instrumental cause are the devas which are the cosmic laws which guide the evolution process in order to maintain dharma. The first deva is Brahma(the creative principle)

Hawking has some idea about the material cause and some idea about the instrumental cause, but it is completely ignorant of the efficient cause which is the very first condition(Aristotle's unmoved mover: prime cause) needed to collapse the universe out of its potential state. In quantum mechanics exactly the same problem presents itself on the question of the collapse of the wavefunction. It is observed in the double slit experiment that the collapse seems to take place only upon observation. However, materialist scientists cannot accept this conclusion, so they posit that the collapse must take place prior to observation through hidden variables. However, despite their best efforts, every test of quantum mechanics has shown that the observer is required to collapse the wavefunction. It cannot collapse itself.

In summary: The universe did not just come out of nothing by itself. It was caused to come into being by purusha.

Namaste Surya

Your post is excellent and comes closest, IMO, to the structured knowledge of drishti shristi versus shristi drishti.

1. However consider the fact that under primeval situation, the being was not a being, since there would be none else. Under such condition, the being is not a being and nor a non being -- indefinable. Thus it would be, in a way, wrong to say that a being caused the being of Universe.

2. As per Nasadiya, Gods came later. So, Stephen is not entirely wrong when he says "God is not necessary for creation" And He probably means the God of christian concept.

3. Stephen does not propound ex-nihilo concept.

4. Also how will the understanding alter if we consider the following two?

• ajAtivAda
• Brahman is one whose all desires are fulfilled so why should He/It bring out a world?

.............


I am not providing any answer because i do not know either the truth or Stephen's mind. But I feel that he is close to ajAtivAda of vedanta.

One who clings fast to Eternal Truth

Will attain Ultimate Truth Itself.

The strength of Rta, Eternal Order, is far reaching

It brings wisdom to those that pursue it.

Earth and Heaven owe their existence to Rta.

And the Supreme Powers yield their ambrosial milk,

their treasured contents,

In perfect obedience to the Lord of Eternal Existence.

(Rg Veda.IV.23.1):

Does Stephen appear to say something similar to the red highlighted portion?
...............

In my understanding, the immutable eternal has two products: satyam (the Lord of eternal existence) and ritam (the eternal way). The Earth and Heaven owe their existence to the Rta.

Om Namah Shivaya

[kallol]

Namaste,

The material cause is what Hawking is dealing with. This is Prakriti and before Prakriti is manfiest she is avyaktam(undifferentiated) This is described in the Nasadiya suktam in the Rig Veda. In her avyakt state prakriti is a in state of pure potentiality. The gunas are in a state of complete equilbruim. Now, as prakriti is in a state of complete equilbruim, she is not capable herself of collapsing her own equilbruim. This collapse only takes place when purusha observes prakriti, as a result prakriti collapses and becomes vykatam and then through the actions of the gunas evolution of the cosmos begins(simultaneous evolution of the mental and physical universe) Thus purusha is the efficient cause. The instrumental cause are the devas which are the cosmic laws which guide the evolution process in order to maintain dharma. The first deva is Brahma(the creative principle)

Dear Surya Deva,

I find the portion highlighted bit confusing and dfficult to percieve. The rest part does align with the vedic theory of creation.

Vyaktam : Known - can be known with an enabler of knowing i.e. purusha
Avyaktam : Unknown - without purusha the prakriti is unknown.

Gunas : Yes the gunas are in a state of equllibrium. Why ? The gunas belong to the properties of the mind. Once the mind is devoid of the body (mainly human form - as rest of the forms are not enabled with "choice" capability and are meant for bhog), there is no way the state of gunas can be altered. So the summation of gunas are in a state of equillibrium.

But this gunas of the mind are also the movers of the prakriti in unmanifested form (energy). This creates the churning to form the cosmos or the universe.

Purusha / consciouness only enables the knowing / experiencing part but is not a cause for the creation.

It is the body mind complex, who is responsible for the creation and the creation cycle. The body mind complex (BMC) is the karta.

The purusha always remains the akarta - pure and pristine, unblemished.

If purusha becomes the cause he will be the highest karta and the highest sansari. He will be responsible for what we (BMC) do and should be blamed for all wrongs. But that is not so. He is only an eabler. He is the provider of the field for BMC to play. He is the provider of the conciousness for BMC to be alive, to know, to feel, to talk, to hear, to sense, etc and carry out its duties.

How can power be a cause for what a computer or fan or bulb or fridge does ? Power only enables them to function - what they do is as per their dharma. If they do not follow dharma, they are rejected or downgraded.

Love and best wishes