On approaches to turiya and consciousness

[Ao]

Namaste friends,

I would like to present the following for discussion, not looking for answers per se but merely for an in-depth and analytical approach to the subject.

Taken from http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Turiya/id/578657 (which may or may not be the best source but does at least have a measure of brevity):

In early Hindu philosophy, turiya (also called caturtha) is a state of pure consciousness, or the experience of ultimate reality and truth. It is a fourth state of consciousness that underlies and at the same time transcends three common states of consciousness: (i) the state of waking consciousness (jagrata), (ii) the state of dreaming (svapna), (iii) and dreamless sleep (susupti).

Turiya - Advaita concept

The first two states are defective as experiences of reality and truth because of their flawed dualistic natures of subject and object, self and not-self, ego and non-ego. In the third state, dreamless sleep, one is not conscious of external or internal objects. But that does not mean consciousness is not present there. It is like saying 'I don't see anything in darkness'. The recognition that I don't see anything is what I 'see'. So also in dreamless sleep, one is not conscious of anything and the very fact that this statement is true proves the existence of consciousness during deep sleep.
In other words consciousness is the constant factor in all the three states and it is unaffected by the presence or absence of objects. Consciousness itself does not require to be revealed by another consciousness. It is self-revealed.While everything is presented to consciousness and is revealed by it, consciousness itself is not presented to anything else. It is never an object in relation to another subject. It is that which underlies both subject and object. It is the fourth, the turiya, the brahman.
The Mandukya Upanishad defines turiya as follows,
"The fourth state is not that which is conscious of the subjective, nor that which is conscious of the objective, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is simple consciousness, nor that which is all-sentient mass, nor that which is all darkness. It is unseen, transcendent, the sole essence of the consciousness of self, the completion of the world."

Turiya - Dvaita Vaishnava concepts

Four states of consciousness
Turiya represents consciousness free from material influence. The idea is that consciousness, of which the atman is constituted, exists in our wakeful state of material experience, as it continues during sleep. In sleep we dream and experience the mental realm, whereas during our waking state the physical plane has more bearing on our lives.
Upon awakening from deep dreamless sleep one remembers existing in that condition. This is evidenced by the common expression, 'I slept well!' One cannot remember something one has no experience of.
Thus in deep sleep when intelligence is transformed by tamo guna, the self continues to exist, as it does when intelligence is transformed by rajo guna during the dream condition and during the wakeful condition when intellect is transformed by sattva guna. The self is thus independent of the body and mind. If the physical and mental realms were to shut down, the self would continue to exist. This we know from our experience in deep sleep. Realizing this involves entering the turiya.
God as turiya
Bhagavata Purana 11.15.16 describes Bhagavan with the words turiyakhye (the fourth), the meaning of which is found in the Bhagavad Gita 7.13:
tribhir guna-mayair bhavair ebhih sarvam idam jagat
mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam
"Deluded by the three [gunas], the whole world does not know Me, who am above them and inexhaustible."
Fifth state in Gaudiya Vedanta
The fourth dimension is the ground of our existence and the goal of all transcendentalists. For the Vedanta philosophers it is perceived variously, either as undifferentiated consciousness or a relationship with the divine. Regarding the latter, Gaudiya Vaishnava Theology concludes that love is greater than ourselves, and it is the greatest aspect of God, one that he himself is motivated by. For them, the nondual consciousness of Vedanta philosophy is realized when we know that we do not belong to ourselves, what to speak of anything belonging to us. If there is any time at which we can accurately say that something belongs to us, it is when, having given ouselves in love to God, we can say that "he is ours." Thus Gaudiya Vaishnavas are interested in turyatitah gopala (Lord Gopala beyond fourth dimension, Gopala-tapani Upanishad 2.96). This is the fifth dimension, in which one comes face to face with Gopala Krishna in Braj (Vraja Dhama), from adhoksaja to aprakrta, from God consciousness to Krishna consciousness. Jiva Gosvami elaborated on the turiya state in his Sandarbhas.

As a corollary to this, I would also like to kindly ask that we consider the elusive nature of consciousness itself in sentient beings' minds. There is an on-going debate in medical science whether or not consciousness can eventually be defined physically. Take memories, for example. When our brains form a new memory, they do so by building "cortical columns" (synapses, groups of neural networks) which have definite physical shapes and are subject to change, strengthening, and decay. There are also different functions for our synapses: purely informative/rote memory (2+3=5, remembering a phone number), phonological/syntactic connections (learning a word in another language), experiential (recalling a past event), etc. However, with this latter, the physical shape of these structures is always in the present and cannot reach out temporally as our minds do when we think about the past experience that formed the memory.

It is of course very easy to say simply, "Turiya is the fourth state of pure consciousness, brahman underlying all, and our consciousness comes from there", but if possible I would like to hear others' thoughts on this matter in a deeper fashion. Please understand that in no way do I mean to denigrate the truth value of the above statement, I'd just like to go into more detail.

Many thanks and peace to you all!

[Onkara]

Namaste Ao
Interesting perspective above on turiya in relation to Islam and one which comes close to the truth using different words and concepts from Islam. It will be helfpul in exploring turiya and consciousness further.

Turiya is consciousness, Allah (or Brahman) is consciousness in Vedanta. It requires consciousness to know material objects.

Modern science (and Islam) believe that consciousness arises and is limited to the body-mind. When we die our consciousness dies or passes on in the form of the immortal soul. This soul (or the individual conscious mind) can then move around space (as a ghost), or go to heaven or hell for example.

In Vedanta it is the opposite, consciousness is the foundation in which all material existence arises and is known. Consciousness is unique, imortal and undividable. So when we die, what dies is only the body-mind-memory, but consciousness remains as it was, there is no going or moving around space, for space itself exists in divine consciousness.

Because consciousness is the foundation for science and scientific investigation it remains aloof from scientific proof. We can show that an object is consciousness, we know it, but we cannot put consciousness under a microscope.

At the ultimate level of understanding there is no “merging” or separation from consciousness, these are ideas to help explain the subtlety of consciousness, for you are already That consciousness limited by the sensation of body: form and name. The atman (soul) is consciousness apparently limited by body (form and name).

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


IMHO one cannot have a meaningful conversation about this without considering turīyātīta , beyond the 4th. It is also difficult to talk and access this academically , as personal experience of the 4th brings value in one's perspective and POV.

• turya तुर्य - the forth or forming the 4th part; yet there are no 'parts' other then turya being 4th in line of wake , dream and sleep or turīya तुरीय a 4th or 4th part
• turīyātīta is turīya + atīta - the 4th + beyond, past. Hence turīyātīta is beyond the 4th. atīta अतीत - gone beyond, past

That said, we on HDF have talked of turiya exhaustively ... does that suggest we cannot extend the conversation? No, yet if there is a genuine interest in the subject , the following posts will ( IMO) offer a substantial foundation on this matter:

The import of turiya: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822

Finding turiya : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2996

Revisting turiya: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3312

praṇām

[sunyata07]

Namaste Ao,

I was just about to post a thread on the topic of Turiya! I would also be very interested to hear what other members of the forum have to say about Consciousness.

I have always found it a pleasant irony that science has largely chosen to ignore the issue of consciousness when it is the basis of understanding everything else in the universe! I will have to read over the Mandukya Upanishad again on the concept behind the states of consciousness and then, total illumination.

And to think I had my doubts about the concept of consciousness at one point some time ago! I had been undergoing a philosophy module as part of my psychology course where we tackled the issues of consciousness (from a purely Western perspective, albeit!). It staggers me how differently modern western philosophy views consciousness in comparison to the east. In a nutshell, there has been debate as to even the existence of consciousness or even a mind. Some western monist philosophers have debated if it is even real and is just a collection of neurons firing in the brain (isn't it a little funny to think all this theory is coming from, in their words, nothing really?); for more info, look up Daniel Dennett and Western materialist philosophy. I will clarify that the topic of consciousness in western philosophy is the surface consciousness in which one perceives the world around him, and not Consciousness as it is understood in the Vedanta.

IMHO one cannot have a meaningful conversation about this without considering turīyātīta , beyond the 4th. It is also difficult to talk and access this academically , as personal experience of the 4th brings value in one's perspective and POV.

Thank you for suggesting the links, Yajvan. I had not even heard of turiyatita (are they in any particular Upanishad?), but I will look up more on this concept.

Namaste.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I wrote in the post above,

IMHO one cannot have a meaningful conversation about this without considering turīyātīta , beyond the 4th. It is also difficult to talk and access this academically , as personal experience of the 4th brings value in one's perspective and POV.

• turya तुर्य - the forth or forming the 4th part; yet there are no 'parts' other then turya being 4th in line of wake , dream and sleep or turīya तुरीय a 4th or 4th part
• turīyātīta is turīya + atīta - the 4th + beyond, past. Hence turīyātīta is beyond the 4th. atīta अतीत - gone beyond, past

Svāmī lakṣman-jū says it this way:
when the awareness becomes fully illumined in its own Self and takes a firm hold of turya and does not lose this not even for a moment that then is turīyātīta .

This has some great significance to the sādhu ( both yogī or yoginī). How so? Not even for a moment means this turīyātīta is there in wake, dream and sleep and even death, this body of consciousness is established in Self-awareness.

Now from a kaśmir Śaivism ( some call Trika Śaivism) this turīyātīta is known by 3 names, pending one's station:

• worldly people call it turya - the 4th. This name is used because there is no other reference - no direct experience.
• yogins give the name rūpātitā¹ - surpassing the touch of one's Self and now the establishment of one's Self (permanently)
• jñānī-s - the entire universe is found in this turīya . They call it pracaya or accumulation , heap , mass , quantity = totality. My
  teacher would always us the word fullness. This turīya cannot be divided , it is whole in itSelf.

The key point - the establishment in one's SELF takes place in turīya (we also write turya).

praṇām

words
rūpātitā - rūpā+ati+tā rūpā = having the form + ati = beyond, surpassing + tā = crossing

[atanu]

Namaste Ao

Liberation comes in knowing oneself as that undividable consciousness or turiya.

Namaste Snip, Ao, Yajvanji, Sunyata and other friends

The problem (to reverse a role from answering to that of a questioner ), i have is that when a mosquito bites my friend sitting beside me, i do not sense it. When i feel like crying, my friend does not feel the same. So, why i do not sense this single undivided consciousness, i do not yet fathom. Can we understand this problem?

Om Namah Shivaya

[Ao]

Namaste Snip, Ao, Yajvanji, Sunyata and other friends

The problem (to reverse a role from answering to that of a questioner ), i have is that when a mosquito bites my friend sitting beside me, i do not sense it. When i feel like crying, my friend does not feel the same. So, why i do not sense this single undivided consciousness, i do not yet fathom. Can we understand this problem?

Om Namah Shivaya

An interesting aside. This makes me think that just as empathy is a part of our mental faculties but does not touch on the (practical) external world in the same way our senses do, so also is consciousness a part of us without having the same kind of external contact. Where do the distinctions lie? Perhaps musings like these can help us understand a consciousness that both underlies and surpasses all else.

Am eager to hear other thoughts on the matter.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté atanu,

The problem (to reverse a role from answering to that of a questioner ), i have is that when a mosquito bites my friend sitting beside me, i do not sense it. When i feel like crying, my friend does not feel the same. So, why i do not sense this single undivided consciousness, i do not yet fathom. Can we understand this problem? Om Namah Shivaya

A most noble question.
When one looks at a beautiful painting they see the full picture. Then with greater appreciation of this, they put their attention on the brush stokes, on the finer colors, on various shades. When one listens to a symphony , one hears it in total, then upon listening for some time the ear goes to the oboe, the strings, the violin, the meter. The awareness is able to dance within the different sounds/vibrations and subtlest of the music.
When one looks at the forest and gardens , all the flowers and bushes spring out. Yet over time one notices the beauty of the spaces between the flowers that allow the flowers to bloom and stand out.

When one breathes in-and-out there is no attention paid to the space in-between the breaths. Over time and with instruction one notices the slight pause/space between each breath; same with each thought.

The upaniṣads tell us this Self ( turīya) is the size of 1/100th of a hair. Are they saying that is its dimension? The wise are telling us it is very subtle, very innocent, yet is pervasive. There is no place it is not i.e. pracaya a heap , mass , quantity = totality.

This turīya is found in these gaps, in the middle, in madhya¹ . We initially must shut out all the distractions initially to appreciate it in meditation. We silence the senses and direct the mind to subtler levels to experience this subtle turīya. We are culturing the mind to experience it very innocently.
Then over time we can entertain activity AND still experience this SELF/turīya simultaneously. This is the essence of karma yoga.

This is the refinement of the nervous system. Hence we come to rūpātitā¹ as our personal experience.

praṇām

words

• madhya middlemost , intermediate , central
• rūpātitā - rūpā+ati+tā rūpā = having the form + ati = beyond, surpassing + tā = crossing

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam All

I am not at all qualified to speak on Turiya that should not stop me, it is that vegetable we make nice curry out of it, you may ask what has it got to do with Turiya, the 4th stage Mandukya UP speaks off? Nothing but that is all that I know of Turiya.


how do I know this? I don�t, in deep sleep (susupti) we have no desire, create no dream, we must feel the bliss why else we go back to it every night? unfortunately we have no recollection off it, not conscious of it. What to speak of Turiya? I cant because words can not reach it, so says Mandukya.
On that note I come back to Atanuji�s query,not that I have any answer. Why can he the conscious being not feel the bite or the pain of the other conscious being; after all the SELF is the lord of all; inhabitant of the heart of all. He is the source of all; creator and dissolver of all beings. There is nothing he does not know.(6)manduka up

This begs a similar question from me who is seeking the fourth stage? i am a part of this SELF so why do I not know this turiya?


brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param (18.54)

bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram (55)

Would the above from Bhagvat Gita be considered a state of turiya, seems to me that the cessation of desires, material that is that brings us closer to that stage to know that allusive tattva.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ao]

This turīya is found in these gaps, in the middle, in madhya� . We initially must shut out all the distractions initially to appreciate it in meditation. We silence the senses and direct the mind to subtler levels to experience this subtle turīya. We are culturing the mind to experience it very innocently.

Then over time we can entertain activity AND still experience this SELF/turīya simultaniously. This is the essence of karma yoga.

This is the refinement of the nervous system. Hense we come to rūpātitā� as our personal experience.

praṇām

words

• madhya middlemost , intermediate , central
• rūpātitā - rūpā+ati+tā rūpā = having the form + ati = beyond, surpassing + tā = crossing

This is excellent, Yajvan, thank you.

Following from this onto my second consideration in the first post, what is happening physically in our brains during this process of refinement? We know that the brain is a very plastic organ, subject to constant change and refinement. I will have to look into studies done on the minds of people who spend much time in meditation and similar activities.

While on an everyday level, this can help give us guidance for our own devotion and practices. Truly a very interesting topic!