On approaches to turiya and consciousness

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Since we have introduced fullness, totality (pracaya) and rūpātitā found in the above posts, I thought it relevant to offer this from the mālinī vijaya tantra , 2nd chapter, 38th śloka. This is proper as we are in the uttara folder - advanced thinking.

प्रचयंरूपातीतंचसम्यक्तुर्यमुदाहृतं ।
महाप्रचयमिच्छन्तितुर्यातीतंविचक्षणाः ॥३८॥

pracayaṁ rūpātītaṁ ca samyak turyamudāhṛtaṁ|
mahāpracayamicchanti turyātītaṁ vicakṣaṇāḥ ||38||

This says,

Turya -the fourth (turyam) is said to be (udāhṛtam) truly (samyák) pracaya -lit. the Mass, totality- (pracayam) and (ca) rūpātītam -the state beyond rūpastha or deep sleep- (rūpá-atītam).
The wise (vicakṣaṇāḥ) wish (to attain) (icchanti) mahāpracaya -lit. the Great Mass, the great fullness, totality - (mahāpracayam) (also known as) turyātīta - lit. beyond the fourth - (turya-atītam) ||38||

The wise seek to attain the Great Mass, the Great Totality, which lies even beyond the fourth. This most profound condition 'the state beyond the 4th' i.e. turīyātīta ,
where one transcends all four ~bodies~ , conditions, and rests only in Pure Consciousness itself, one's true Essence, we can call Being.

Many say this turyātīta and mahāpracaya and synonymous in one's experience.

One can see why having some flavor of this in one's personal experience brings delight to one's comprehension of this subject.

praṇām

[Onkara]

Namasté friends

Here is a slightly different angle to consider along side the excellent threads here already.

Maya Herself can lead us to assume that nature would be different if we were Self-realised. For example we may imagine that once we have the grace of Self-realisation we will see nature in 4 Dimensional colours for example or be able to experience simultaneously the mosquito tasting the skin and our friend’s irritation all at once. But this idea, if one holds it, is a trap of the mind. The idea that our limited experience will change can be illusive and misleading. The idea that nature (or our life) should be different can be a stumbling block. Keep in mind the fact that our sense experiences are limited to our body are whether we like it or not the body is parkiti itself and need not change for moksha whilst living.

Nature is perfect, nature is working just how the Supreme Being willed it to be. The Lord willed Himself to be many and nature (prakriti with maya) became many. However, the Lord is not without compassion. There is a spiritual/mental "get out of gaol card" within the Lord's lila and one may come to 'see' through His maya and know ones True Self. This True Self is nothing more or less than that very same non-dual being in which all this arises, is sustained and dissolves. That which comes to know the True Self is explained as turiya or consciousness. Consciousness is an integral part of Brahman. This consciousness is the chit which we are told is this satchitananda (or Brahman). Advaita concludes that we cannot be anything different to satchitananda at the highest level of human understanding.

[atanu]

Namasté friends

Maya Herself can lead us to assume that nature would be different if we were Self-realised. For example we may imagine that once we have the grace of Self-realisation we will see nature in 4 Dimensional colours for example or be able to experience simultaneously the mosquito tasting the skin and our friend’s irritation all at once. But this idea, if one holds it, is a trap of the mind. The idea that our limited experience will change can be illusive and misleading. ------

Namaste Snip

Thank you for your answer.

Not only 'The idea that our limited experience will change' but any concept can be illusive and misleading. Kena U. has clear instruction on this 'One who knows Brahman does not know it------'.

But the question i put up was not about Turiya. It is about waking state. I will again show it for you.

So, why i do not sense this single undivided consciousness, i do not yet fathom.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Pranam All

Why can he the conscious being not feel the bite or the pain of the other conscious being; after all the SELF is the lord of all; inhabitant of the heart of all. He is the source of all; creator and dissolver of all beings. There is nothing he does not know.(6)manduka up

This begs a similar question from me who is seeking the fourth stage? i am a part of this SELF so why do I not know this turiya?

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param (18.54)

Namaste Ganeshprasadji

Thank you for the answer, which I believe without any dilemma and doubt.

(53) And casting aside self-sense, force, arrogance, desire, anger, possession, egoless and tranquil in mind, he becomes worthy of becoming one vvith Brahman.
(54) Having become one with Brahman, and being tranquil in spirit, he neither grieves nor desires. Regarding all beings as alike he attains supreme devotion to Me.
(55) Thorough devotion he comes to know Me, what My measure is and who I am in truth; then, having known Me in truth, he forthwith enters into Me.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Onkara]

"So, why i do not sense this single undivided consciousness, i do not yet fathom."

Namast� Atanuji

Can we really answer this question by pointing at consciousness itself? Consciousness is Brahman, correct? Is not consciousness then the ultimate witness and the point at which the mind returns (and cannot fathom)?
If I were to try to show it to you (or anyone asking that question) would I not exhaust myself in doing so first. This is why neti-neti, meditation and nama japa are encourage by the scriptures and gurus.

But above I didn�t imply to dodge the question. The last post above is to show that you are already that consciousness asking the question above and to consider yourself different or to think that consciousness will be an experience is wrong. In fact whether you ask the question in jest or complete seriousness makes no difference to consciousness nor does the answer make a difference to consciousness itself!

My point here is that no matter what you do or think, you are that consciousness. So the reason why you do not fathom consciousness is because you are looking for something different to yourSelf and the crunch comes when we find that that what we were looking for is verily in and of that consciousness which is doing the looking.

Please let me know if this raises more questions (or pm me) if of use.

[atanu]

hariḥ oṁ
namasté atanu,

A most noble question.
There is no place it is not i.e. pracaya a heap , mass , quantity = totality.

This turīya is found in these gaps, in the middle, in madhya¹ . We initially must shut out all the distractions initially to appreciate it in meditation. We silence the senses and direct the mind to subtler levels to experience this subtle turīya. We are culturing the mind to experience it very innocently.

Namaste Yajvanji

The question was intended to bring out the concept of adhAsya (superpostion). Without naming it, you have put forth the idea. On a white sheet of cloth one may do patchwork of different colours and hide the white. I wanted to make two points wrt to Andrew's question:

This adhAsya is without beginning, because of dual relationship of the Mind (the internal instrument - also equated with physical brain by western scientists) and Atman -- the owner/source of the Mind. The internal instruments of each individual have different unique designs, memories, constituents. As long as the individual mind persists and remains different from the single sattwik mind called Mahat (Hari), the adhAsya (false colouration) will continue.

So, the question will arise whether the Turiya can at all be known by the mind as its object? We know that scripture says "How will the knower be known?"


Second point can again be inferred from "How will the knower be known?" Even if we removed all patch work from the white sheet of cloth, can we know the sheet as an object? In this case, No. Since the Seer is the white sheet itself. So, my point was that while observing the gaps (when the underlying substratum is exposed), what we are seeing? Can the gap and its contents be seen as an object and equated with knowing the objectless subject called Turiya?

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté atanu,

This adhAsya is without beginning, because of dual relationship of the Mind (the internal instrument - also equated with physical brain by western scientists) and Atman -- the owner/source of the Mind. The internal instruments of each individual have different unique designs, memories, constituents. As long as the individual mind persists and remains different from the single sattwik mind called Mahat (Hari), the adhAsya (false colouration) will continue.

So, the question will arise whether the Turiya can at all be known by the mind as its object? We know that scripture says "How will the knower be known?"

Second point can again be inferred from "How will the knower be known?" Even if we removed all patch work from the white sheet of cloth, can we know the sheet as an object? In this case, No. Since the Seer is the white sheet itself. So, my point was that while observing the gaps (when the underlying substratum is exposed), what we are seeing? Can the gap and its contents be seen as an object and equated with knowing the objectless subject called Turiya? Om Namah Shivaya

Yes, I see what you offer. The upaniṣads inform us , it is the eye of the eye, the ear of the ear. Within the gaps (saṃdhi&#185 this turīya is present.Yet it is there all the time as the foundation for wake, dream and sleep.
Now the question : can it be an object of inspection? This is where the sādhu falls repeatedly , trying to hold this turīya like an apple in one's hand ( using your analogy).
This turīya is the raw materials of awareness itself. So it is awareness trying to inspect itself under our direction. this is the pickle of understanding this turīya. It is as if you wish to hold clapping in your hands to inspect it. How can this happen? You cannot hold clapping with the same device that makes clapping occur.

Hence the wisdom of the ages say , one must just be innocent and be this turīya. What's this ? What double talk is this yajvan.
In the beginning stages of entering samādhi ( a yogic name for turīya) the aspirant knows s/he had been somewhere after exiting this condition. Then with some time as the awareness is refined, the aspirant knows when s/he entered and exited this samādhi. It is not there for inspection as if to hold a ball in one's hands and look.

Yet over time, when the SELF chooses to reveal itSELF to itSELF, then this turīya is present all the time - wake, dream , sleep, death. Yet what are we doing ? We are refining the nervous system via practice to hold this perfect silence and activity to occur at the same time.

What is this practice you mention yajvan? The daily practice of entering this turīya to unveil ( really for our awareness to still itself) and for it to just shine through...
where does one do this? At any saṃdhi. The gap of a breath, the gap of a thought, the gap between waking and sleeping, between dreaming and sleeping
( this take a bit more culturing of the nervous system). Where there is a gap there is the possibly of turīya to shine through.

Just like clouds. Once clouds move away what comes though? Light. Yet was the sun really covered? No - it shines all the time. Like that this turīya is there all the time.

praṇām

words

saṃdhi - containing a conjunction or transition from one to the other ; an example is saṃdhya or twilight - the transition from night to morning, from day to evening.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast� Ao

[/list].

Following from this onto my second consideration in the first post, what is happening physically in our brains during this process of refinement?

If you wish to pursue this interest, the transcendental meditation program� Has conducted over 300 lab tests on meditiators to quantify what occurs with EKG, EEG, blood cortisol , etc. all that from a body-mind POV. I looked at the studies some years back and found the differences striking - between meditators and the non-meditating control groups.

Now I have not viewed any data done with those that are completely realized beings a.k.a. exponents of Reality i.e. completely established in mahāpracaya - the Great Mass, the great fullness, totality.

praṇām

[atanu]

hariḥ oṁ
Since we have introduced fullness, totality (pracaya) and rūpātitā found in the above posts, I thought it relevant to offer this from the mālinī vijaya tantra , 2nd chapter, 38th śloka. This is proper as we are in the uttara folder - advanced thinking.

प्रचयंरूपातीतंचसम्यक्तुर्यमुदाहृतं ।
महाप्रचयमिच्छन्तितुर्यातीतंविचक्षणाः ॥३८॥

pracayaṁ rūpātītaṁ ca samyak turyamudāhṛtaṁ|
mahāpracayamicchanti turyātītaṁ vicakṣaṇāḥ ||38||

This says,

Turya -the fourth (turyam) is said to be (udāhṛtam) truly (samy�k) pracaya -lit. the Mass, totality- (pracayam) and (ca) rūpātītam -the state beyond rūpastha or deep sleep- (rūp�-atītam).
The wise (vicakṣaṇāḥ) wish (to attain) (icchanti) mahāpracaya -lit. the Great Mass, the great fullness, totality - (mahāpracayam) (also known as) turyātīta - lit. beyond the fourth - (turya-atītam) ||38||

The wise seek to attain the Great Mass, the Great Totality, which lies even beyond the fourth. This most profound condition 'the state beyond the 4th' i.e. turīyātīta , where one transcends all four ~bodies~ , conditions, and rests only in Pure Consciousness itself, one's true Essence, we can call Being.
----

praṇām

Namaste Yajvanji

I wished to say a few things on Turiyatita as there might be some confusion in the mind of readers that there was something beyond Turiya to be attained. Mandukya Upanishad simply says: The Turya must be known. It does not teach of any higher state or higher being.

As per Kashmir Saivism understanding:

The individual subjective body travels in the five states of jagrat - wakefulness, svapna - dreaming, sushupti - deep sleep, turya - the fourth state, and turyatita - beyond the fourth.

Abhinavagupta explains, that when there is vividness of objectivity, that is the state of jagrat. When this vividness is shaky and unstable, that is svapna, and when this vividness is gone completely that is sushupti. When super-observation is found that is turya, and when objectivity is individually dead and found full of life in totality, that is turyatita.

The Turiatita is the perceiver who has gone unto Turiya or transcended into Turiya, which itself is devoid of individually.

Vedanta states seven states of perceiver consciousness, wherein the last and the highest stage is Turiya itself:

1. śubhecchā (good desire)
2. vicāraṇā (inquiry)
3. tanumānasī (thinned mind)
4. sattvāpatti (attainment of sattva)
5. asaṃsakti (non-attachment)
6. padārtha-bhāvanā (analysis of objects)
7. turīya (fourth or final stage)

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...98&postcount=8

As stated in earlier posts, Shri Ramana Maharshi teaches that when Self is seen as existing in four states, then there is question of Turiya -- the fourth. But when the Turiya is seen as the Self itself -- as one whole and as the gates for the three other steps it is called Turiyatita. This view is supported, as shown below, from Shruti:

MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD

(7) There is the person in the eye, there is he who walks as in sleep, he who is sound asleep, and he who is above the sleeper: these are the four conditions (of the Self), and the fourth is greater than all.
(8) Brahman with one foot moves in the three, and Brahman with three feet is in the last.
.........

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté atanu,

thank you for your post... another way of saying this ( too) is turyātīta occurs when turya is stable in one's experience. It is there 7x24x365.

It is good to drive to clarity on this matter - as it is one of appreciation and of getting a real view on this turyātīta.

There is more to be said, but will await others' input and your further assessments.

praṇām