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Thread: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

  1. #51
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    Re: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

    namaste everyone.

    01. An upaniShad called 'turIyAtIta upaniShad' of the Yajur veda, describes how an ascetic becomes a 'turIyAtIta-avadhUta' by graduating through the stages of kuTichaka--hut-dwelling, bahUdaka--mendicant, haMsa, paramahaMsa and finally becomes avadhUta. From the descriptions and prescriptions in this upaniShad, it seems that turIyAtIta is not a stage past turIya, but only an abundance/fullness--atIta, of turIya. This is perhaps the reason that this upaniShad the pUrNamadaH-pUrNamidam mantra as its shAnti mantra that occurs both in the beginning and the end. The source text of this upaniShad is at: http://www.gatewayforindia.com/upani..._Upanishad.pdf , the ITX transliteration at http://www.ms.uky.edu/~sohum/sanskri...hat/turiya.itx and the translation at file://localhost/D:/svAdhyAyaSkt/Sanskrit01/upanishads/turiya.pdf .

    In our times, BhagavAn RamaNa maharShi was a turIyAtIta-avadhUta, who was catapulted to the fullness reality of turIya when he was only eleven years old, and soon thereafter lived a life demonstrating that an avadhUta can be in and of and for the world.

    02. Atanu's sculptor-slab-sculpture example of the Self in post no.43 is telling. It is said that after the praLaya, the artefacts of life and forms merge in and are dormant in Brahman until the next cycle of creation. Since the subtratum of turIya is not different from the Self/Brahman, perhaps we may say that Brahman's state of deep sleep between two cycles of creation is turIyAtIta. As Yajvan has indicated in post no.47, turIya, like everying else has been called by other names with differing connotations.

    As Atanu has stated in post no.49, turIya is timelessness and colorlessness of the white screen. Its fullness spills over the sandhi gaps in time and space in the duality of creation. Although those gaps appear to us as 'moments', they are the 'portkeys' (to use a term from the Harry Potter book) to the timeless, eternal reality of turIya.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  2. #52
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    Re: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

    Pranam Atanu ji and all

    Yes we have discussed this many a times, this repetition may be is off no value, so I think I must stop.

    Before I do that I must clear few things. With hind sight it was presumptuous of me to suggest that sloka 15.7 was self explanatory, obviously I did not suggest that the body is sanatan, when Lord Krishna says jiva-bhutah sanatanah , he is referring eternity of some thing which is further explained in 15.7 it is interesting to note that he describe two purusha in this sloka one is perishable and other eternal and off course he himself a purushotama a clear distinction.

    Eko the supreme Self is Sat Chit Anand, so I repeat my self again who is seeking the turiya stage ? That is the bit I can not get.
    What is being super imposed and why and by what?

    Yes Atanu if we are on the same page, its not necessary that our comprehension would be the same. If and when we reach the turiya stage I wonder who would be arguing with whom?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  3. #53
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    Re: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté ganeshprasad,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post

    Eko the supreme Self is Sat Chit Anand, so I repeat my self again who is seeking the turiya stage ? That is the bit I can not get.
    What is being super imposed and why and by what?
    Let me offer this, and perhaps it will solicit more conversation.

    This is a very delicate subject as it is easy to get mis-guided by words. This seeking is an ~okay~ word but I am of the opinion pratyabhijñā darśana is better suited to this notion of turya ( some like to spell it turīya).

    Pratyabhijñā means to recognize , re-member and darśana is knowing ( sometimes we use this word to define a philosophy , a knowledge). So this pratyabhijñā darśana is 'knowing' and re-membering who you are. Who are you (we) ? That Self that you have been discussing. So, this life's process is the notion of remembering who we are. We have forgotten our true heritage.

    Now this super-imposition - adhyāsa (imposing) sounds very mystical yet ādi śaṅkara-ji says it is cognizing something as something else.
    He says it this way in his vivekacūḍāmaṇi¹ , 140th śloka : Being confused by ignorance a person mis-takes a thing for what it is not.
    It is this absence of discrimination which causes one to mis-take a snake for a rope. Then , great danger befalls one subject to it. Hence listen my friend.
    Taking unreal things to be real is definitely what constitutes bondage.

    One may say I'd like to read more about this adhyāsa from ādi śaṅkara-ji . I would then suggest his adhyāsabhāṣya that he offers
    at the beginning of the brahma-sūtra-s. This may assist one in understanding this matter .

    praṇām

    words

    vivekacūḍāmaṇi - viveka= विवेक = the ability to discriminate, discrimination + cūḍāmaṇi चूडामणि = a crown jewel , or the crown jewel of discrimination ( some say crest jewel)
    Last edited by yajvan; 14 September 2010 at 05:12 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #54
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    Re: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

    namaste Ganeshprasadji and others.

    If I may, I have some thoughts on the issues you have raised.

    You said in post no.46:
    We exist no one can deny that. Either you guys are suggesting that the super self is deluded and therefore needs to discover itself again or we as an individual striving to reach that stage which is Turiya.

    and again in post no.52:
    Eko the supreme Self is Sat Chit Anand, so I repeat my self again who is seeking the turiya stage ? That is the bit I can not get.
    What is being super imposed and why and by what?
    =====

    I think that the answer to why the Supreme Self which is already the eko--One, sat-chit-Ananda should seek to realize it in its Many, lies in the praNava mantra AUM.

    • AUM as the sum total of all knowledge, is an akShara--an unalterable, imperishable syllable that is verily equated with Brahman the Self. The three alphabets A,U,M and the comprehensive stillness of the anusvAra--the bindu--dot, with a crescent mark are usually spoken of as representing the four states of consciousness: vaishvAnara, taijasa, prajnA and turIya. The bindu of turIya penetrates the other states and yet lies separate, as the cresent mark indicates. [For more details: http://www.swamij.com/om.htm ]

    • Since Brahman is eko-sat--One Reality, and AUM is Brahman, this would mean that AUM is the eko-sat. What is the nature of this satyam?

    ChAndogya upaniShad 8.3.4-5 says:

    etasya brahmaNo nAma satyamiti |
    tAni ha vA etAni trINi akSharANi, sa, ti, yaM, iti |
    tadyatsa tadamRutam, atha yatti tanmartyam, atha yadyaM tena ubhe yachchhati |

    "The name of Brahman is Truth, or the True, satyam, which consists of three letters, sa, ti, and yam. Sa is the Unperishing; Ti is the Perishing; Yam holds, binds, Relates the two together."

    BRhad-AraNyaka upaniShad 5.5.3 confirms this:

    satyaM brahmoti satyaM hyeva brahma |
    te devAH satyamevopAsate |
    tadetat tryaksharaM satyamiti |
    sa ityekamaksharaM, ti ityekamaksharam, yamityekamaksharaM |
    prathamottame akshare satyaM, madhyato anRutaM tada 'etada' anRutaM ubhayataH
    satyena parigRuhItaM satyabhUyameva bhavati |
    nainaM vidvAMsamanRutaM hinasti ||

    "Truth, satyam, verily is Brahman. ... The gods contemplate and worship the truth, satyam, only. Three-lettered is this satyam; sa is one letter, ti is one letter, and yam is one letter. The first and the last letters, imperishables, are true; in the middle is the false and fleeting. The False is encompassed round on both sides by the True. The True is the more, the greater, the prevailing. He that knoweth this he may not be overpowered by the False."

    • Thus, in the akSharam AUM, A primarily stands for Atman, the Self; U stands for the anAtman, the Not-Self, and M as niShedha--negation, binds them both in a relationship of negation--neti neti. Brahman in manifest creation is the totality of AUM with its four types of connotations, which is why the GAyatrI mantra says 'AUM bhUr bhuva suvaha'--the three worlds have AUm as their substratum; and the upaniShads exhort us to inquire into and meditate on AUM to know and realize the Self.

    • Thus Brahman the Self which is immanent in every atom of the universe, eternally performs a 'neti neti' on the Not-Self it has projected on itself (in a desire of knowing itself better), negating the Not-Self as not him the Self, which is the reason that the Not-Self is driven in a cycle of eternal change. This change is recognized as motion in space and its sequence of events in a point of space is recognized as time.

    • The term samsAra--World Process, means 'to slide on, to move on, pass through a succession of states', and thus the universe is expanding in space and changing in time.

    • In the process of saMsAra, because of paraspara adhyAsa--mutual superimposition, of the consciousness of the Self, the Not-Self acquires the reflected consciousness and in turn clouds over the Self. Such reflected consciousness in the ghaTAkAsha--limited space, constitute the many jIvas--individual souls, causing in them the free will to associate themselves with the Not-Self or the Self. But since the Self is un-de-fin-able, it eventually asserts itself and pops the bubble of jIva.

    • Brahman, the inherent Self is ubiquitously understood as 'I', the I-sense, in the jIvas. This I-sense as the reflection of Self in us is so strong in the waking state that even though we normally associate 'I' with an individual soul, the fact that all of us perceive the external world in the same way is more indicative of the underlying unity of the I-sense to its source in the waking state than in the dream state where the I-sense must necessarily be far more individualistic.

    There is absolute unity with the source in the suShupti--deep sleep, state, which is represented by the 'M' of AUM, but the relationship of negation of Self by the Not-Self asserts and brings the jIva back to the waking state in the cycle.

    • In the cyclic recurrence of creation-dissolution-(silence of )yuga-saMdhi, the bindu of turIya permeates all space and time since it is the screen on which the picture runs, but the gaps of turIya are hardly noticed by the jIvas which are busy with their roles in samsAra. Although the cycle recurs with sustained precision in time and space in jaDa-prakRti--insentient Not-Self, in the reflected chaitanya--consciousness, of the Not-Self of the jIvas (body-mind-intellect), the vAsanas--impressions, of karma--actions, accumulate over time, thus complicating the World Process--saMsAra.

    • While the negative karma thus acquired by jIvas involves them in a wild goose chase for lasting happiness and peace, the positive karma directs them to seek inward for such happiness and peace. Among the jIvas which has the spiritual propensity to look inward, some are at the level of upAsana--worship, some at the level of vichAra--intellectual inquiry, some are set in the nivRtti-mArga of jnAna, while a few are jIvan-muktas, guiding others.

    The scriptures do not explain as to WHY the One Brahman wanted to become the Many JIvas. But it did became Many, emanating the jaDa-chaitanya prapancha--insentient-sentient universe, out of it, creating the Self and Not-Self and setting up the cyclic process of AUM as the saMsAra of worldly life. However, since nothing is outside the Consciousness of Brahman, this universe is only a dream in his universal mind, although we as jIvas do not readily realize that our true nature is turIya and the other states of existence are only in our mind as dreams.

    (Paraphrased from the relevant chapters of the book 'The Sciece of Peace' by Bhagavan Das, which is serialized from here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2598 )
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  5. #55
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    Re: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Atanu ji and all

    Eko the supreme Self is Sat Chit Anand, so I repeat my self again who is seeking the turiya stage ? That is the bit I can not get.
    What is being super imposed and why and by what?

    Yes Atanu if we are on the same page, its not necessary that our comprehension would be the same. If and when we reach the turiya stage I wonder who would be arguing with whom?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Namaste Ganeshprasadji

    You have asked the most auspicious questions, which my guru requests everyone to ask themselves (this was hinted above also). brahmA is known to have asked the question "Who?" kA? and got enlightened.

    You have asked a question or two. But, Shri Krishna teaches "Arjuna know that you are not a doer". So, ask yourself "If I am not the doer, then who asked this question and who is seeking the answer?"

    More. Suppose a heinous crime, worthy of death by hanging, happens in your dream. Then who should be hanged? You or the dream character?

    More. Suppose Clark Gable plays a role of villain in a movie and rapes a girl. Then who is to be held the sinner? Clark Gable, or the director, or the story writer, or the character that Clark Gable plays in the movie? Who should be punished?

    I request humbly and sincerely that please do not be dismissive of these questions in hurry, especially the first one.

    Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  6. #56
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    Re: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

    Pranam Yajvan ji Saidevi ji Atanu ji and all

    Thank you for engaging me in this auspicious discussion, on offer for me to consider is, pratyabhijā darśana, remembering, mistaking Being confused by ignorance a person mis-takes a thing for what it is not, non self, dreams and actors acting and directors.

    Let us remind ourselves who Bhagvan is, Sat, Chit Ananda.

    Does the self have to remember who he is? Can he be in ignorance so that he mistake that which is not?

    What is this non self, is it another entity? Is it so powerful that the self get deluded by it?

    Atanu you ask me not to dismiss your questions, no my friend I have always respected what you have to say, I respect advaita , now I am not here to challenge what you and others follow but at the same time I can not go pass the question I have in my mind.

    In a dream we wake up with a nightmare, if we are Gods dream, then when he wakes up we should all disappear.

    Director of a film is always in control, he never punishes the actors that commits the crime out side of the film, but we carry our karma even after we die, and get punished or rewarded for what we do. Our actions are not what God wrote as a script and then punishes us for enacting that script. In such a case a director is better.

    "Arjuna know that you are not a doer". I believe you are quoting this from bg18.17 now prior to that Lord Krishna say many things like Duty action work , Human beings cannot completely abstain from work and so on.
    But in the end Arjuns statement .

    arjuna uvaca
    nasto mohah smrtir labdha
    tvat-prasadan mayacyuta
    sthito 'smi gata-sandehah
    karisye vacanam tava

    Arjuna said, My dear Krsna, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions.(18.73)

    We certainly have a different take or understanding of what Lord Krishna is saying, Arjun having removed all his doubts, is ready to act, why if he is not the doer?

    With this I take a break on this particular discussion and contemplate what has been said and no doubt further answers and questions that may follow.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  7. #57
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    Re: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast ganeshprasad,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Does the self have to remember who he is? Can he be in ignorance so that he mistake that which is not?
    The kaṭhopaniṣad and muṇḍaka upaniṣad informs the same, He whom the Self chooses, by him the Self is revealed. To him the Self unveils the Self.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #58
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    Re: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    "Arjuna know that you are not a doer". I believe you are quoting this from bg18.17 now prior to that Lord Krishna say many things like Duty action work , Human beings cannot completely abstain from work and so on.
    But in the end Arjun’s statement .

    arjuna uvaca
    nasto mohah smrtir labdha
    tvat-prasadan mayacyuta
    sthito 'smi gata-sandehah
    karisye vacanam tava

    Arjuna said, My dear Krsna, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions.(18.73)

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Namaste ganeshprasadji

    Let us kindly take a step at a time. I think that you have not answered the question that was asked above and which is reproduced below:

    . You have asked a question or two. But, Shri Krishna teaches "Arjuna know that you are not a doer". So, ask yourself "If I am not the doer, then who asked this question and who is seeking the answer?"


    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 15 September 2010 at 01:12 PM. Reason: .
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast



    'arjuna, know that you are not the doer ' can almost be said as a key theme of the Bhāgavad gītā and is called out in various chapters in different ways.

    Now the question atanu asks is a reasonable one... the answer lies within the word 'you' i.e. understanding who 'you' is referring to.
    If one thinks of a bound individual that comes and goes then the question is perplexing. If one sees 'you' as the SELF, as the Infinite
    as the unbounded, then this question addressable.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: On approaches to turiya and consciousness

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    If we go back to some of the initial posts in this string, the notion of approaches to turīya was initially considered. This turīya is within us ( some say we are within turīya) and it surrounds us. Yet due
    to distractions, to fluctuations, the nature of the mind in vikapla this turīya remains hidden from our preview. What then does it take to have a glimpse of something that is present all the time ( 7x24x365x forever) ? Nirvikalpa or a non-wavering mind.

    These are not my views but are the essence of the patajalis yogadarśana, 1st chapter ( called samādhi pāda); This same knowledge is also the essence of the nistaraṇga upadeṣa ( undistracted instructions) found in the vijāna bhairava kārikā-s ( part of the rudrayāmala tantra).

    If in fact this turīya is wholeness, fullness (bhūman) non-differentated, we cannot not approach it with a differentiated (vikapla) ~mind~ or awareness. It is the wise teacher who knows how to apply yukti ( a means, device, approach) and make it a yuktistha (a method and practice). That is, that teacher, instructor, guru who knows the workings of the ignorant mind and shows it the path to this turīya is a blessing to this earth.

    Sometimes it even takes a trick... to trick the mind ( this is also another definition yukti - trick, cunning device) into experiencing the perfection of this Silence within. The mind is so caught-up with actions, and thoughts, and internal jibberish all day long , many come to think this is the normal mode of operations for this ~mind device~. This mind (we) has forgotten śamaṁ (calmness, rooted in kṛ , 'to calm one's self' , 'be tranquil').

    This IMHO is what needs to be re-established . Bringing balance back to the system. From here one finds not only the mind needs this balance, but the body too i.e. proper rest, activity, eating habits all play a role in how one hone's the awareness to experience this turīya.

    praām

    words

    vikapla - mental occupation , thinking ; difference of perception , distinction , differences
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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