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Thread: In defense of ISKCON.....

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    In defense of ISKCON.....

    Hinduism consists of a mosaic of different schools of thought. We have Shiv Mandirs and Ram Mandirs and Durga Mandirs and Hanuman Mandirs and no one gives it a second thought. But ISKCON gets vilified for their devotion to Lord Krishna. Granted that this exclusivity breeds some negative feelings among some people, but it is still a Hindu Mandir and worthy of our love and support. We may raise questions about some of their practices and beliefs, and if the ISKCON devotees feel comfortable visiting the forum, they will post explanations. If not, Oh well. They are not obligated to indulge in prolonged discussions about every aspect of their observances. For God's sake, it is our professed faith, and we should know about most of the practices. As with other aspects of life, we select things we buy, people we associate with, the area we live in, profession we select, based on the totality of our personalities. Why would selection of a spiritual path be any different? So, if ISKCON is not for us, we move on. I see no need to rip it apart at the seams. We, as inquiring minds, do ask pointed questions before we become part of any sampradaye. And if it is not suitable for our taste, we look for one that will meet our spiritual needs. But we should spare throwing barbs at ISKCON or any other sampradaye, including Arya Samaj, which is against murti puja. At the end of the day, there has to be unity among the ranks of all shades of Hinduism, for us to survive. We have been divided and ruled by others for too long. Let us not do the same thing to ourselves.

    ISKCON Mandirs in India are the ones where people from all ethnic groups and all social strata feel welcome. The last all-welcoming Mandir in Delhi, Laxmi Narayan Mandir was completed in 1939. Then we had to wait for almost 60 years till another all-welcoming Mandir, the ISKCON Mandir, came in to being in 1998. And they have built Mandirs in other areas of India too. Sure there are bad apples in every sampradaye, but the thing to remember is that the sampradaye is not bad because some of the messengers are bad. When we start bad mouthing a sampradaye, we shoot ourselves in the foot and weaken ourselves. Outsiders would love to see that drama - Hindus fighting among themselves. Is that the spectacle we want to present to the world? I hope not.

  2. #2

    Re: In defense of ISKCON.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Hinduism consists of a mosaic of different schools of thought.
    Absolutely right. Just like the Vedic Sanatana Dharma does. It's not limited to one thing alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    We have Shiv Mandirs and Ram Mandirs and Durga Mandirs and Hanuman Mandirs and no one gives it a second thought.
    Beautiful isn't it? Just like in Vedic culture, there is worship of these deities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    But ISKCON gets vilified for their devotion to Lord Krishna.
    Well but this my dear friend, is wrongly reflected by you.

    Iskcon cannot get vilified by any Hindu for devotion to Lord Krishna. This is plain silly. Though the last time that Iskcon did get vilified for devotion to Krishna was in Kazakhstan where Hare Krsna devotee houses were snatched and demolished by that govt. Kazakhstan is majorly Islamic country. The reason given was that they are unauthorized. But it was all very biased.
    At that point, Iskcon posted videos as "Hindus" suffering in Kazakhstan.
    In Russia, some orthodox church father blasphemed Iskcon and abused Lord Krishna. But these are not Hindus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Granted that this exclusivity breeds some negative feelings among some people, but it is still a Hindu Mandir and worthy of our love and support. We may raise questions about some of their practices and beliefs, and if the ISKCON devotees feel comfortable visiting the forum, they will post explanations. If not, Oh well. They are not obligated to indulge in prolonged discussions about every aspect of their observances. For God's sake, it is our professed faith, and we should know about most of the practices. As with other aspects of life, we select things we buy, people we associate with, the area we live in, profession we select, based on the totality of our personalities. Why would selection of a spiritual path be any different? So, if ISKCON is not for us, we move on. I see no need to rip it apart at the seams. We, as inquiring minds, do ask pointed questions before we become part of any sampradaye. And if it is not suitable for our taste, we look for one that will meet our spiritual needs. But we should spare throwing barbs at ISKCON or any other sampradaye, including Arya Samaj, which is against murti puja. At the end of the day, there has to be unity among the ranks of all shades of Hinduism, for us to survive. We have been divided and ruled by others for too long. Let us not do the same thing to ourselves.

    ISKCON Mandirs in India are the ones where people from all ethnic groups and all social strata feel welcome. The last all-welcoming Mandir in Delhi, Laxmi Narayan Mandir was completed in 1939. Then we had to wait for almost 60 years till another all-welcoming Mandir, the ISKCON Mandir, came in to being in 1998. And they have built Mandirs in other areas of India too. Sure there are bad apples in every sampradaye, but the thing to remember is that the sampradaye is not bad because some of the messengers are bad. When we start bad mouthing a sampradaye, we shoot ourselves in the foot and weaken ourselves. Outsiders would love to see that drama - Hindus fighting among themselves. Is that the spectacle we want to present to the world? I hope not.
    Ok. Let me reply here. Dear Believer,
    Well, firstly its nice of you to start a newer thread. Please accept my obeisances! I hope I'm able to clarify my position which is not of offending iskcon or Krishna devotees in any way, except than to address to a few issues that are off for others is all.
    Jai Gurudev and Jai shri Krishna!

    If you CAREFULLY READ my previous post, actually several previous posts, I have enlisted a few issues that are prevalent within the sect that are problematic and do not resonate with ancient Vedic spirit. Unfortunately, these issues are creation of the leaders not the few bad apples of the sub-sect.

    Now you post claiming that you get bashed for worshipping Krsna! I don't think anybody could have a problem with someone worshiping Lord Krishna. What's so different that you do here?? Krishna worship has been there in Hinduism for ages. Vaishnavism is ONE OF THE HINDU VEDIC sampradayas.
    For similar people who need to be told again and again, here it is yet again:
    I or Hindus in general don't have a problem with Hare Krsnas's devotion to Krsna only. Devotional bhakti towards Lord Krishna is WONDERFUL. And yes its still a part of the Hindu pantheon and should get all the love and support.
    There is no problem with that either.

    A sadhak can develop attachment towards one deity. This is ok and in Sanatana Hindu dharma, a sadhak may be worshipping Durga and his attachment would be towards her form mostly. His worship mantras, dhyan etc. all would be then aimed at pleasing Durga. He may be attached to Shiva or Lord Krishna or Rama. But he wouldn't care to criticize someone who is attached to another form of God as a fool, simply because he is not worshipping your way or your form of God.
    .."But we should spare throwing barbs at ISKCON ..." The barbs were started by Iskcon policies that are just coming back is all. Its sad, but true. I wish Srila Prabhupad wouldn't have bashed and demeaned Hinduism, categorized Shiva as a demi-semi God in ignorance able to give only some material benefits that too with Krishna's permission and unable to liberate and wish he wouldn't have abused saints from other sampradayas as "fools and rascals". When something is said by the leader of a sect, it has a multiple long lasting affect as the following generations feel obliged to hold on to that stance and repeat it.
    Yes its great, that Iskcon temples welcome all. But as an experiment to "openness" I've greeted some of the people with Jai Gurudev! or Namah Shivaya and I see the smiles disappear fast. Of course some people greet in the same spirit and then I say Hare Krsna!
    Also, not being an official member or initiate of Iskcon, I would readily go to any Iskcon temple and do service. When I lived outside India, we would go to Isckon temples and serve at the festivals or donate regularly. How many Iskcon devotees would do that going to a Shiva temple? That's another question. But then, as you said, its what you want. And it is to be respected.

    If you are devoted to Lord Krishna, then its wonderful and you are blessed!!

    I agree with the spirit in your post and yes we should stick together as a part of the whole.

    Warm regards,
    Hari Bol!
    Namah Shivaya!

    Yogkriya

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    Re: In defense of ISKCON.....

    Disclaimer: Although I have been going to ISKCON temples off and on for 30 years, I am not an initiated ISKCON devotee, or associated exclusively with a particular deity. Being a Hindu, I accept all of them to be my Lords and worthy of my puja, love, respect, service and devotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogkriya View Post
    But he wouldn't care to criticize someone who is attached to another form of God as a fool, simply because he is not worshipping your way or your form of God.
    True, I don't like it, but I overlook it as their shortcoming. After all, devotee of any deity thinks his is the best - a clear lack of understanding of God's nature and reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogkriya View Post
    .."But we should spare throwing barbs at ISKCON ..." The barbs were started by Iskcon policies that are just coming back is all. Its sad, but true. I wish Srila Prabhupad wouldn't have bashed and demeaned Hinduism, categorized Shiva as a demi-semi God in ignorance able to give only some material benefits that too with Krishna's permission and unable to liberate and wish he wouldn't have abused saints from other sampradayas as "fools and rascals".
    That was most unfortunate, but we should move beyond that. Their interpretation of Bhagwad Gita dictates that Lord Krishan considered all other deities to be demgods, and they have to live with that. I don't have to be 100% on board with any philosophy or with a person, before I like them. Heck, we don't even agree 100% of the time with our spouses, and we still tolerate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogkriya View Post
    Yes its great, that Iskcon temples welcome all. But as an experiment to "openness" I've greeted some of the people with Jai Gurudev! or Namah Shivaya and I see the smiles disappear fast. Of course some people greet in the same spirit and then I say Hare Krsna!
    I think that is a little mischievous. When I visit a Hanuman Mandir, I don't greet the devotees there with 'Jai Shri Krishna'. That is disrespectful to the presiding deity of that Mandir.
    By all-welcoming Mandir, I mean, it is not a Gujrati-specific or Benagali-specific or a Tamil-specific or a Hindi bhai-specific Mandir. Because of its uniformity and non-ethnic look, an ISKCON Mandir looks and really is inviting to all.

    Bottom line: Every shade of Hinduism has peculiarities, and what may appear to be negative factors to people outside of that sampradaye. But we have to move beyond that, overlook the differences and try to forge unity. Else, we will remain weak/divided and be easy targets for conversion.

  4. #4

    Re: In defense of ISKCON.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Hinduism consists of a mosaic of different schools of thought. We have Shiv Mandirs and Ram Mandirs and Durga Mandirs and Hanuman Mandirs and no one gives it a second thought.

    Yes.. you are right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    But ISKCON gets vilified for their devotion to Lord Krishna. Granted that this exclusivity breeds some negative feelings among some people, but it is still a Hindu Mandir
    No. I beg to differ. No one vilifies ISKCON for their devotion towards Krsna. It is ISKCON which vilifies other sects for not sharing it'sviews and for worshiping God other than Krsna. It was Srila Prabhupada who called great people like Aurobindo, Ramakrishna paramahansa, Vivekananda..etc as "FOOLS and RASCALS".

    You said "ISKCON Temples are Hindu Mandirs". I'd have been very glad if it had come from Iskcon. Sadly, ISKCON denied the fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Hindus fighting among themselves. Is that the spectacle we want to present to the world? I hope not.
    In 1977 srila Prabhupada wrote in 'Science of Self Realization', "There is a misconception that the Krishna consciousness movement represents the Hindu religion. Sometimes Indians both inside and outside of India think that we are preaching the Hindu religion, but actually we are not." In chapter three of the book [available from Bhaktivedanta Archives, P.O. Box 255, Sandy Ridge, North Carolina 27046 USA], this startling point is made several times: "The Krishna consciousness movement has nothing to do with the Hindu religion or any system of religion.... One should clearly understand that the Krishna consciousness movement is not preaching the so-called Hindu religion."

    Followers of Srila Prabhupada have assembled all of his letters, books, lectures, interviews and conversations on the Bhaktivedanta Vedabase [also available from Bhaktivedanta Archives]. This CD-Rom database yielded 183 references to Hinduism, which were compiled and analyzed to understand Srila Prabhupada's point of view.

    Often Srila Prabhupada would simply deny the existence of a religion called "Hinduism." He attributed the improper designation to "foreign invaders." At other times he acknowledged the existence of the faith, but considered it a hopelessly degraded form of the original Sanatana Dharma of the Vedas. In his April, 1967, New York lectures he said, "Although posing as great scholars, ascetics, householders and swamis, the so-called followers of the Hindu religion are all useless, dried-up branches of the Vedic religion." ISKCON, he believed, was the only true exponent of the Vedic faith today. In an interview given for Bhavan's Journal he said, "India, they have given up the real religious system, Sanatana Dharma. Fictitiously, they have accepted a hodgepodge thing which is called Hinduism. Therefore there is trouble."
    The Guru frequently explained his position, and acted upon his beliefs in establishing his dynamic society. At a 1974 Mumbai lecture, he declared, "We are not preaching Hindu religion. While registering the association, I purposely kept this name, 'Krishna Consciousness,' neither Hindu religion nor Christian nor Buddhist religion."

    Srila Prabhupada was aware that the Indian community had a mistaken impression of his Hinduness. In a 1970 letter to a temple administrator in Los Angeles, he wrote, "The Hindu community in the West has got some good feeling for me because superficially they are seeing that I am spreading Hindu religion, but factually this Krishna Consciousness movement is neither Hindu religion nor any other religion." That remains the case today, for Srila Prabhupada left no successor with the authority to change his spiritual edicts.
    So why does the general Hindu community mistakenly believe that ISKCON is a Hindu organization, when it never describes itself as such? Well, it sometimes does. During the ISKCON temple openings in New Delhi and Bangalore, where newspaper reports frequently identified the grand temples as Hindu, the ISKCON press releases, such as that of April 15, 1998, never used the H word. Yet, when Indian devotees serving at each of those temples thought it was a Hindu temple. The discrepancy between public perception and internal policy is further confused by the group's official exceptions to the non-Hindu position. Faced with difficulties, ISKCON leaders have appealed to the Hindu community to back them up, as in a dispute over the Bhaktivedanta Manor in the UK or when being hassled by Christians in Russia and Poland. In appeals to judges and governments, the word Hindu is openly used. In other legal cases, including one to the US Supreme Court, ISKCON has attempted to counteract the "cult" label by claiming to be a traditional Hindu lineage, and asked other Hindus to affirm this in the courts. Other organizations who parted company with Hinduism, such as Transcendental Meditation and Brahma Kumaris, do not compromise their position under any circumstances.
    What also sets ISKCON apart is its open repudiation and criticism of Hinduism, especially among members. There are Hindus who joined ISKCON only to be taught to reject their family's religion. Some people usually say"Previously we were Hindus. Now we are Hare Krishnas,". At the same time, the organization often appeals to the Hindu community and businessmen for financial support of its social programs and political help to protect ISKCON from detractors.
    Considering ISKCON's appearances--member's dress, names, bhajana, festivals, worship, scripture, pilgrimage, temple building, and so forth--it's little wonder that so many have assumed they are Hindus. To find out they are not will certainly surprise many--Hindus and non-Hindus alike. It may even surprise a few Hare Krishnas themselves.


    Regards
    AhamAtma.

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    Re: In defense of ISKCON.....

    Aham,

    I have known ISKCON for over 30 years. So, I know about all the things that you have listed, and I will not deny any of them. I could even add a few more things to the laundry list. But where would that lead us? I am not asking you to check into one of their Mandirs and get initiated. All I am asking is to look beyond the negative, focus on the positive and build bridges, unite in an effort to have one Hindu voice. We have spent too much time nitpicking each other. Every sampradaye has its good points, and some quirks which are not palatable to non-members. With any sense of religiosity, and even a minute desire to advance spiritually, we must forgive, forget, overlook and move forward.

    I am not an ISKCON initiated devotee, not even a regular attendee at their weekly Sunday program. I am just trying to make a case that we should let go of the past, get along with them and unite our fragmented Hindu community. Can I count on your understanding of this basic effort?
    Last edited by Believer; 08 September 2010 at 01:18 AM.

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    Re: In defense of ISKCON.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Hinduism consists of a mosaic of different schools of thought. We have Shiv Mandirs and Ram Mandirs and Durga Mandirs and Hanuman Mandirs and no one gives it a second thought. But ISKCON gets vilified for their devotion to Lord Krishna.
    No Hindu villifies a Krishna Mandir. There are thousands of Krishna Mandirs across India.


    Granted that this exclusivity breeds some negative feelings among some people, but it is still a Hindu Mandir and worthy of our love and support.


    No one feels negativity about them. No Hindu calls an explanation from ISKCON adherents.

    ISKCON Mandirs in India are the ones where people from all ethnic groups and all social strata feel welcome. The last all-welcoming Mandir in Delhi, Laxmi Narayan Mandir was completed in 1939. Then we had to wait for almost 60 years till another all-welcoming Mandir, the ISKCON Mandir, came in to being in 1998. And they have built Mandirs in other areas of India too. Sure there are bad apples in every sampradaye, but the thing to remember is that the sampradaye is not bad because some of the messengers are bad. When we start bad mouthing a sampradaye, we shoot ourselves in the foot and weaken ourselves. Outsiders would love to see that drama - Hindus fighting among themselves. Is that the spectacle we want to present to the world? I hope not.
    All mandirs are open to all Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhist unconditionally.


    If some ISKCON wallahs deny that their mandir is a Hindu mandir, then there are potent political reasons. In India it pays to be declared a non Hindu minority. To be part of Hindu majority is to be at a disadvantage.

  7. #7

    Re: In defense of ISKCON.....

    Quote Originally Posted by rcscwc View Post
    No Hindu villifies a Krishna Mandir. There are thousands of Krishna Mandirs across India.




    No one feels negativity about them. No Hindu calls an explanation from ISKCON adherents.



    All mandirs are open to all Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhist unconditionally.


    If some ISKCON wallahs deny that their mandir is a Hindu mandir, then there are potent political reasons. In India it pays to be declared a non Hindu minority. To be part of Hindu majority is to be at a disadvantage.
    Namaskar!

    Very True!!!!

    Regards,


    Yogkriya

  8. #8

    Re: In defense of ISKCON.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Aham,

    I have known ISKCON for over 30 years. So, I know about all the things that you have listed, and I will not deny any of them. I could even add a few more things to the laundry list. But where would that lead us? I am not asking you to check into one of their Mandirs and get initiated. All I am asking is to look beyond the negative, focus on the positive and build bridges, unite in an effort to have one Hindu voice. We have spent too much time nitpicking each other. Every sampradaye has its good points, and some quirks which are not palatable to non-members. With any sense of religiosity, and even a minute desire to advance spiritually, we must forgive, forget, overlook and move forward.

    I am not an ISKCON initiated devotee, not even a regular attendee at their weekly Sunday program. I am just trying to make a case that we should let go of the past, get along with them and unite our fragmented Hindu community. Can I count on your understanding of this basic effort?
    ... wish Shri Abhoycharan De had understood all that before bashing all others ...
    But now we should make amends and refrain from offenses.
    Jai Shri Krishna!

  9. #9

    Re: In defense of ISKCON.....

    Quote Originally Posted by AhamAtma View Post
    Yes.. you are right.



    No. I beg to differ. No one vilifies ISKCON for their devotion towards Krsna. It is ISKCON which vilifies other sects for not sharing it'sviews and for worshiping God other than Krsna. It was Srila Prabhupada who called great people like Aurobindo, Ramakrishna paramahansa, Vivekananda..etc as "FOOLS and RASCALS".

    You said "ISKCON Temples are Hindu Mandirs". I'd have been very glad if it had come from Iskcon. Sadly, ISKCON denied the fact.




    In 1977 srila Prabhupada wrote in 'Science of Self Realization', "There is a misconception that the Krishna consciousness movement represents the Hindu religion. Sometimes Indians both inside and outside of India think that we are preaching the Hindu religion, but actually we are not." In chapter three of the book [available from Bhaktivedanta Archives, P.O. Box 255, Sandy Ridge, North Carolina 27046 USA], this startling point is made several times: "The Krishna consciousness movement has nothing to do with the Hindu religion or any system of religion.... One should clearly understand that the Krishna consciousness movement is not preaching the so-called Hindu religion."

    Followers of Srila Prabhupada have assembled all of his letters, books, lectures, interviews and conversations on the Bhaktivedanta Vedabase [also available from Bhaktivedanta Archives]. This CD-Rom database yielded 183 references to Hinduism, which were compiled and analyzed to understand Srila Prabhupada's point of view.

    Often Srila Prabhupada would simply deny the existence of a religion called "Hinduism." He attributed the improper designation to "foreign invaders." At other times he acknowledged the existence of the faith, but considered it a hopelessly degraded form of the original Sanatana Dharma of the Vedas. In his April, 1967, New York lectures he said, "Although posing as great scholars, ascetics, householders and swamis, the so-called followers of the Hindu religion are all useless, dried-up branches of the Vedic religion." ISKCON, he believed, was the only true exponent of the Vedic faith today. In an interview given for Bhavan's Journal he said, "India, they have given up the real religious system, Sanatana Dharma. Fictitiously, they have accepted a hodgepodge thing which is called Hinduism. Therefore there is trouble."
    The Guru frequently explained his position, and acted upon his beliefs in establishing his dynamic society. At a 1974 Mumbai lecture, he declared, "We are not preaching Hindu religion. While registering the association, I purposely kept this name, 'Krishna Consciousness,' neither Hindu religion nor Christian nor Buddhist religion."

    Srila Prabhupada was aware that the Indian community had a mistaken impression of his Hinduness. In a 1970 letter to a temple administrator in Los Angeles, he wrote, "The Hindu community in the West has got some good feeling for me because superficially they are seeing that I am spreading Hindu religion, but factually this Krishna Consciousness movement is neither Hindu religion nor any other religion." That remains the case today, for Srila Prabhupada left no successor with the authority to change his spiritual edicts.
    So why does the general Hindu community mistakenly believe that ISKCON is a Hindu organization, when it never describes itself as such? Well, it sometimes does. During the ISKCON temple openings in New Delhi and Bangalore, where newspaper reports frequently identified the grand temples as Hindu, the ISKCON press releases, such as that of April 15, 1998, never used the H word. Yet, when Indian devotees serving at each of those temples thought it was a Hindu temple. The discrepancy between public perception and internal policy is further confused by the group's official exceptions to the non-Hindu position. Faced with difficulties, ISKCON leaders have appealed to the Hindu community to back them up, as in a dispute over the Bhaktivedanta Manor in the UK or when being hassled by Christians in Russia and Poland. In appeals to judges and governments, the word Hindu is openly used. In other legal cases, including one to the US Supreme Court, ISKCON has attempted to counteract the "cult" label by claiming to be a traditional Hindu lineage, and asked other Hindus to affirm this in the courts. Other organizations who parted company with Hinduism, such as Transcendental Meditation and Brahma Kumaris, do not compromise their position under any circumstances.
    What also sets ISKCON apart is its open repudiation and criticism of Hinduism, especially among members. There are Hindus who joined ISKCON only to be taught to reject their family's religion. Some people usually say"Previously we were Hindus. Now we are Hare Krishnas,". At the same time, the organization often appeals to the Hindu community and businessmen for financial support of its social programs and political help to protect ISKCON from detractors.
    Considering ISKCON's appearances--member's dress, names, bhajana, festivals, worship, scripture, pilgrimage, temple building, and so forth--it's little wonder that so many have assumed they are Hindus. To find out they are not will certainly surprise many--Hindus and non-Hindus alike. It may even surprise a few Hare Krishnas themselves.


    Regards
    AhamAtma.

    Namaskar and Namah Shivaya Aham!!

    A very nice post. I'm sure a lot of Hare Krsnas when told, try to ignore this hypocritical double standard prevalent within their organization policies and philosophy as inculcated by Prabhupad and the followers. This will all continue in the same spirit though, but you will be told to "look beyond negative and get over it."

    Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu new of all these tendencies that were to come. So he said: "In this age of hypocrisy and quarrel...chant God's name"
    And of course centuries back Shri Adi Shankaracharya also told moodha mate to chant Govindam only. Because both these saints new that people would get into hypocrisy, double standards and make quarrel. Even abusing the cradle they came from in the struggle for supremacy and separate identity of own group.

    Best wishes to all devotees / readers,
    Yogkriya

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    Re: In defense of ISKCON.....

    Pranam all

    In defense off Iskcon as the title suggest, yes we should all do our bit to strengthen the Hindu unity, this was aptly demonstrated during the fight to keep Bhaktivedant manor open.
    Hindus from all walks off life joined in force for the battle which was fought under the 'HINDU' banner. i was also a very small part in that defense. the struggle went on for years, near the end off it one evening on Sunday with packed Prabhupad room upstairs, mainly by devotees Loknath Swami gave a lecture in support of that ongoing struggle, i remember very vividly even today what he had to say, yes we are fighting this battle under the Hindu banner but we should remember we are not HINDUS, such hypocrisy.
    unfortunately this is their stated position, it hurts i will not go into other short comings, YogKriya has listed them correctly i am sure we can all add a bit of our own i have had a long association with them but i still love the chanting and Darsan at the manor.
    i end on a good note, the gone Janamastmi the Manor celebrated the festival with great success like every year it does. Many comments i hear from old people how wonderful it is all organized, a lot off effort goes in to it. Majority that do come are thankfully oblivious to all that goes on which a good thing.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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