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Thread: A Need for a United Hindu Voice

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    A Need for a United Hindu Voice

    O citizens of the world!
    Live in harmony and concord.
    Be organized and co-operative.
    Speak with one voice
    And make your resolutions with one mind
    As our ancient saints and seers,
    Leaders and preceptors
    Having performed their duties righteously
    Similarly, may you not falter to execute your duties
    Rig Veda 10.191.2

    In my turn towards Hinduism in the last 10 years I realised something about people who were supposedly already Hindu. Nobody had a clear understanding of what Hinduism was. I would get a different answer from each person I asked. One would say "Hinduism is the worship of many gods and goddesses" another would say, "Hinduism is the worship of one god" One would say, "Hinduism is not a religion, it is culture of India, consisting of millions of divergent religions, philosophies, sects" another would say "Hinduism is a religion" Similarly, I would get divergent views on everything within Hinduism, like its teachings and its history. On issues like caste system, dowry murder and sati, I would often get apologies like, "That happened in the past, we don't do that anymore" It became increasingly clear to me the Hindus I conversed with had no knowledge of Yoga and Vedanta. Barely any of them had read the Gita, let alone the Upanishads. They would often come to me to get that knowledge. Ironic.

    As I learned more about Hinduism I became aware of the sinister north/south politics that pervades Hindus. Some see themselves as Aryans and some see themselves as Dravidians. Some claim Hinduism is the Aryan religion and some claim it is the Dravidian religion. One Hindu told me that all the Vedic gods are Aryan and Shiva and Rama are Dravidian gods. The Vedic people were sacrificial and the Dravidian people were Yogic.
    Now can you imagine how confusing this is to somebody being introduced to Hinduism for the first time? There is little wonder why Hinduism is so divided today, why other religions perceive it as a weak target, and why it is so easy to confuse the Hindu masses and why it is so easy to distort our history and get away with it. Hindus todays are a hopelessly divided people.

    But this can be remedied if Hindus stand up and speak with one voice. When Alexandra the 'Great' invaded(or rather tried to invade) India, the clever Hindu prime minister Chanakya realised that India would fall if the various feuding Hindu kingdoms did not unite to thwart the invading Greek army. So he discoursed with many Hindu kings and was able to convince them to unite and fight against the invading army. When the Greek army saw the hundreds of thousands of united Hindu soliders standing in unison, they fled for their dear lives.

    The same can happen today. Those forces that are attacking Hinduism today will flee with a similar display of cowardice if Hindus unite. However, this unification has to be ideological, political and philosophical. First of all Hindus need to agree what Hinduism is, what its teachings are and what its history is. Otherwise, how could Hindus unite?

    On this we need discussion and need to arrive at a consensus. I already have a very strong idea of what Hinduism is, whats its teachings are and what its history is based on my extensive reading over more than a decade. Allow me to share this with you:

    1. What is Hinduism?

    Hinduism is simply the foreign name(coined by the British) given to Santana Dharma that pervaded the Indian subcontinent. Although, at the time there was no name given to this religion, it was clear that this religion existed. The British realised that the various major religious traditions(which are more accurately sects of Hinduism) in India shared a common religion that consisted of the following main distinguishing characteristics:

    1) It accepted the authority of the Vedas
    2) It accepted karma and reincarnation
    3) It practiced some form of Yoga(Bhakti, Raja, Jnana)
    4) It taught some varient of Samkhya-Yoga-Vedanta philosophy

    In other words, Hinduism is the Vedic religion. It is the religion that is based on the Vedas which were composed by the enlightened sages of India, the Risis. The Risis discovered the ultimate truths about reality in their superconscious states and documented these in the Vedas. They practiced Yoga and meditation, which in their time was called tapasya.

    2. What are Hindu teachings?

    The teachings that are contained in the Vedas are written in a very archaic language known as Vedic Sanskrit, and because of this they are very difficult to translate. Even great Sanskrit scholars like Swami Dayananda Saraswati(founder of Arya Samaaj) said that the Vedas would require generations of scholarship to translate them accruately. However, one thing is very clear, the European translations of the Vedas are incredibly perverse and distort the Vedas beyond recognition. Part of the reason for this is the Europeans believed in the myth of the Aryan invasions and considered the Vedic people to be barbarians. They refused to consider that the Vedas would contain the sublime philosophy that is later enunciated in post-vedic texts like the Upanishads, Gita, Darsanas etc. They even refused to use traditional Sanskrit methods of translating them, accusing the Hindu Brahmins of fabricating "ficitious etymologies"

    I will categorically state now the Vedas do indeed contain the same philosophy of the Upanishads, Gita, Darsanas etc and this will become clear to you if you read a proper translation of them done by authentic Sanskrit scholars. However, it is not entirely important for you to read the Vedas to learn the teachings of Hinduism. The Upanishads, Gita and Darsanas are just as valid sources to learn those teachings

    These teachings can be summed up in 7 core tenets:

    1. This entire universe is governed and maintained by eternal laws and principles which collectively are known as dharma. These in turn define the law of karma, if you live your live in accordance with these principles, you incur no negative karma, and you prosper materially, intellectually and spiritually. If, however you go against these principles, you incur negative karma and suffer. Such people are called Asuras(A+Sur: out of rhythm with eternal law)

    2. One must know and learn about these principles that govern the universe by using empirical, rational and phenomenological means. The scientific method is one way to discover these principles, but the scientific method is limited only to the empirical, and cannot discover the true nature of these principles. However, Hinduism already has done the necessary research in the Samkhya-Yoga-Vedanta Darsana of these principles. Now modern science is increasingly corroborating this research.
    (e.g., Ian stevenson has produced very valuable scientific evidence for the reality of reincarnation)

    3) There is an absolute spiritual reality(Hindu concept of god: Brahman) which is of the nature of pure consciousness, pure knowledge and pure bliss(satchitananda) It is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscientst and all of creation is its expression only.

    4) The purpose of life is for the soul(karana sharira) to reconnect to this absolute spiritual reality and manifest all its divine qualities. Such a soul will express pure consciousness, pure knowledge and pure bliss and becomes an instrument for the divine. The soul reaches this state through continuous spiritual evolution by reincarnating again and again, until it has absolved all its karma by eradicating desire and gaining full mastery of its mind and senses. There is not fixed period in which this can be done. The Vedas say it is possible in a single lifetime, provided your tapas is intense.

    5) In order for the soul to gain complete mastery of the mind and senses it requires initiation into Yoga sadhana by an enlightened Guru. It is said in the vedic tradition there is no knowledge without the Guru and hence why the guru parampara has continued since Vedic times. This is absolutely true, for somebody to liberate their mind with their own mind, is like a fire trying to put itself out.

    6) This entire material universe is made out of 5 elements which correspond to our 5 senses i.e., it is a perceptual or sensory universe. It is fundamentally the vibration of the primal matter - Prakriti - which is the energy of pure consciousness(Krishna says Prakriti is his energy) The primordial sound is pranava - AUM. These vibrations of primal matter are known as the Gunas which are either expansive, contractive or static. When our mode of consciousness changes, then so does our appearance of reality. (Gunas are similar to quantum superstrings in string theory)

    7) There are 5 recognised layers or kosas of the body which correspond to different vibrational levels of reality. The first is the physical body which is made up chemicals(flesh, bone, water etc) This is kept healthy through an Ayurvedic lifestyle. Then there is the energy body which is made up complex energy circuits and energy plexus points(chakras) this is kept healthy though Yoga asanas and pranayama. Then there is the mental body which is made up of thought forms, this is kept healthy by using meditation. Then there is the intellectual body and the spiritual body which are kept healthy through jnana, karma and bhakti.

    These collectively are the 7 core tenets of Hinduism. This is what defines Hinduism as Hinduism. Next time somebody asks you what Hinduism is tell them these 7 core tenets.

    3. What is the real history of Hinduism?

    Make a firm stand against Aryan invasion theory because this is one of the most sinster political machinations against Hinduism. It is used not only to divides Northen Hindus against Southern Hindus, it is also used to shrink Hinduism's 10,000 history into a ridiculously small time-frame beginning from 1500BCE(so-called Vedic period) The scientific evidence that has been mounting up for decades now from the excavations of the Indus valley sites is more or less conclusive that no Aryan invasion ever happened and the Indus valley is decidely vedic.

    The Rig Veda has now been dated to as early as 7000BCE based on the internal evidence in the text. Now, marine archaeology confirms urban settlements in India during this period which have been submerged. This means the actual timeframe for the history of Hinduism based on current evidence starts from approx 7000BCE. Thus the dates of many important events and personalities is going to have to be revised.

    Please do not insist on the million years cycles of the Yugas because even if this is true there is no scientific evidence to back this up at the moment, and insisting otherwise, puts the Hindus in the same category as a biblical creationist. Hinduism is a scientific religion after all.

    The Indus-Saraswati civilisation beginning in 7000BCE is the oldest known civilisation in the world. It reached impressive heights in science, technology and engineering and established a maritime empire which spread Hinduism all around the world. The global footprint of Hinduism can be found in Western Europe, in the Middle East, in South East Asia and even the Americas. From 7000BCE to 1000AD India was a Hindu nation and commanded a massive 32.9% of the worlds GDP. It was a global juggernaut and had a legendary status in the world for its industries, its culture, philosophy, religion.

    It was a pioneer in all fields. The first to build planned cities with underground sanitation; the first to build dockyards; the first to build hospitals; the first to build universities; the first to manufacture steel and zinc. The first to advance many sciences such as chemistry, medicine, astronomy, mathematics, philosophy, botany, meterology, prosody, grammar

    From the period of 1000AD to India fell to brutal invasions by Muslims. However, Muslims did not succeed in completely taking over India, as Hindus fought tooth and nail with them constantly, and even defeated the Muslims in many wars. This is why the Muslims failed to convert the Hindus to Islam. Then in 1600 when the British and Portugese arrived they captialised on this in-fighting between Muslims and Hindus, exploited it, and used it to subvert the country. In the 400 year period of British rule India's economy was systematically depleted - bled to death - all its traditional industries were taxed to death and its education system was outlawed leading to the massive poverty and illiteracy India is infamous for today. The biggest achivement of the British was to create a ruling elite English speaking class, loyal to the British.

    India has been freed from the British, but it is still colonized by this English speaking Westernized class that control the government of India, the media of India and economy of India and oppress the masses. It is a sad fact that 80% of Indians still live in villages and do not enjoy the economic prosperity the Western elite class do. They are discriminated against in their own country for not speaking English.

    The Western elite class routinely ridicule the native culture. When are we going to be free from them? Who is going to lead this revolution?

    4. Criticisms of Hinduism

    Western people and people from other religions are very quick to criticise Hinduism. They talk about the caste system, sati, dowry, child marriage and maltreatment of women. So blatant is this criticism that it is taught within educational institutes itself. Christian missionaries in particular delude many tribal communities in India by pointing these out and seduce them into accepting Christianity to save them.

    Hindus need to stop apologising, because none of these things have anything to do with Hinduism. These are the results of British colonial politics and economics and Islamic terror. The practice of sati was an act of honour suicide that Indian women commited to not fall into the hands of Muslim men(who would enslave them and rape them). The Purdha(veil) was introduced into India by Muslims, which required women to always cover themselves. Child marriage was done to secure the future of the woman, so that when she reached maturity, she could be quickly married off. Otherwise she would fall prey to Muslim men.

    The vast majority of the Dalit population today were the result of the British abolishing India's traditional industries, which rendered the entire nation destitute. The Dalits lost their trades and then had to resort to menial labour to survive.

    To get a true picture of what Indian society was like during Hindu rule read the Arthashastra. It will become completely apparent of how progressive Hindi India was. In the Arthshastra a woman is allowed to serve in the army, she is allowed to own property, she is allowed to choose her own spouse, she is allowed to divorce, she is allowed to remarry. In the legal system a woman always gets half of the punishment a man does and she never gets capital punishment(a man does) She is also entitled to education, and some women were even Risis and gurus. About 30 of the Risis in the Vedas are women.

    Nowhere else in the world did women enjoy the freedom and equality they did as they did in India. In contrast in other parts of the world women were treated like sub-human beings. In the bible she is an expendable part of man, a mere rib and a baby making machine. Many Christian saints villified woman calling her the source of evil, baby making machines, useless. This culminated in the witch-burning where millions of women were burned at the stake.

    Hindus need to get in the habit of pointing a finger back at those who point fingers at us.

    How can any other religion criticise us when they themselves are full of such unmitigated evil? In the Old Testimant god himself orders genocide, rape, murder. The punishment for most crimes in the bible is death(idol worship is one of them) Women are stoned to death for adultrey and women who are found not to be virgins when married, get burned to death. In the Quran a woman is considered inferior to man in all regards and sanction is given to beat women to discipline them. Prophet Mohammed himself beats his wife Aisha(he marries when she is a child)

    And who can forget the endless streak of violence, death and destruction Christianity and Islam have inflicted on the world? Crusades, Jihads, inquisitions, witch-burning, genocides, colonialism. Entire civilisations have been exterminated such as the Native Americans and Aboriginals. Today the Native Americans and Aboriginals are subjected to dire discrimination, many Native American women get raped by white man, Native American elders get sexually and physically abused. In America, the wealthiest nation in the world, Native Americans live in isolated areas in third world conditions. The Aboriginals in Australia suffer similarly.

    Hindus need to be able to bring all this up when they get attacked by other religions and Western people, because it will shut them up. Rather than us having to apologise for our non-existent crimes, it is they who end up apologising for their undoutable crimes.

    In conclusion then this is my suggestion for what a united Hindu voice should consist of. If we do not arrive at a consensus on what the Hindu voice should consist of, we will continue to have division amongst us. Until we do not unite Hinduism will be plagued with the problems it is plagued with today. The internet is a great place to spread the Hindu voice and represent our religion. There are dozens of religion forums, Yoga forums, politics forums, Indian forums, history forums where we can spread the Hindu voice in a polite but direct manner. If we can build a Hindu voice on the internet it will be the start of a great Hindu movement to show to the world Hindu solidarity.

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    Re: A Need for a United Hindu Voice

    Vannakkam Surya Deva:

    I agree with many of your points, especially standing up, and refuting the AIT. But the vastness itself (the reason why you get so many different answers to the same thing) is why it is so practically nigh impossible. We are more vast than the 3 Abrahamics combined. So imagine trying to unify Judaism, Christianity, and Islam under one umbrella and call it Abrahamicism. Good luck with that!

    I think the starting point is to get the members of the Hindu religions to respect each other first. I see a trend towards more global thinking in this regard with increased travel, communication, and this tool called the internet. But your ordinary Hindu doesn't care a lot. He and she are just too busy going about the dharma of raising a family, going to temple, and don't have much time for scripture reading, let alone pondering how Hindus operate in some far off place that is much different than the local practice.

    For the most part (not all) here on HDF we are able to respect all the different angles.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 11 September 2010 at 05:31 PM.

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    Re: A Need for a United Hindu Voice

    Pranam Surya Deva

    Like EM i would agree with a lot what you have to say.
    Different concepts and colorful culture that exist is what make the Hindu Dharma so beautiful. Most if not all concept is derived from Vedas. we can all unite and mostly are united by common understanding of Dharma, Karma and reincarnation and largely unity in diversity, both in worship and culture that is what makes us unique.

    one correction the name Hindu was not coined by the British, many will argue the Persian did it but even that is not conclusive

    by the way welcome to HDF

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: A Need for a United Hindu Voice

    Dear Surya Deva,

    Appreciate your thought. However we need to ponder over

    1. United at what level ?

    2. How to cater in such a way so as to make it independent of time, space, society and material ?

    The sansar is like a big ashwatha tree which has all sorts of branches, sub branches, sub-sub branches, so on and leaves. At the end all are different (time space, society, material, etc) but connected at the very begining i.e the trunk which is the SD knowledge.

    Unknowingly the end points interact with apparently different voices, opinion, etc not knowning the base of the knowledge.

    Some are at the end, some in the middle, some near the trunk with various levels of knowledge. It is impossible to bring an uniformity in the knowledge level which actually defies the theory of hinduism. So the voices, attitude, approach will be different.

    What can be done is that thrive for more awareness of the knowledge part. Ritual and culture part may be mentioned but should be left to individuals to get fit into.

    Love and best wishes

  5. Cool Re: A Need for a United Hindu Voice

    SD I agree and disagree with you on several points, but I cannot explain everything atonce.

    Some important points- The name Hinduism is coined by British is not very true, Rajah Ram Mohun Roy use it. But I don't know how the word 'Hindu' and 'ism' merged originally it is Dharma.

    Hinduism does not have a mere 10,000 years old History, Dharm have no beginnings no end. RamSetu also proved it was build more than 17 lakhs years ago, cannot say no
    Dates given by you are not true, if we accept it, than we will lost all the important legands, we are already struggling to get back lost forgotten legands

    It was not the period of 1000 AD when muslims invaded, in 600 AD Muslims captured the region of Goa destroying the Maura Daynasty, but later thrown out by Pulkeshin-II Chalukya King. Later in 700 AD muslims captured Afghanistan, Sindh, West Punjab region. The Vaid Dynasty (Known as Hindushahi Dynasty) continued to fight with them for 3 centuries.

    Rest you know well, Thanks for such, we need a united voice.
    [CENTER][B][FONT=Arial Black][SIZE=7][COLOR=Yellow] ॐ[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
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    Re: A Need for a United Hindu Voice

    Namaste,

    It is great to see many of you agree with my points, but even greater to see disagreements. As these disagreements are what must be settled in order to develop a concensus and a united Hindu voice. So I will focus on only responding to the disagreements.

    Easter Mind, Hinduism only looks complex to those who do not understand its history and philosophy. There is a false misconception being spread around that Hindusim has been a constantly changing religion, assimilating every belief, practice under the sun. It is said it consists of divergent traditions etc. The truth is that Hinduism is the Vedic religion. It is based on the core principles discussed within Vedic philosophy. This is the philosophy that I explained in the 7 core tenets. This philosophy is contained within the Darsanas: Vedanta-Samkhya-Yoga--Mimasa-Vaiseshika and Nyaya. From this we get the specifics of dharma, karma and reincarnation.

    Originally, the Vedic religion was simply pure philosophy. There was much less emphasis on rituals, other than the Vedic fire sacrifices(homa) The principle form of Yoga that was practiced was Jnana and Raja, which is also called Brahma Vidya and Atman Vidya. It is said this was the period of high spiritual culture on Earth(Sat/Krita Yuga) In this period there was a rather impersonal understanding of god as an absolute reality. Later, in post Vedic times, while the core Vedic philosophy remained the same, Jnana Yoga became less popular and Bhakti Yoga emerged. In this period the Agamas/tantras and Puranas are composed and we see a massive explosion of temples being built. This is the most colourful period of Santana dharma. It has been argued that Bhakti Yoga is suited especially for the Kaliyuga. It is also in this period that dualistic forms of Vedanta emerged, obviously to justify the Bhakti trend.

    In the Bhakti tradition the notion of Nirguna Brahman and Sadguna Brahman is central. Nirguna Brahman is the formless absolute and Sadguna Brahman is the human conception of God. The Vaishnavites conceive Sadguna Brahman as Vishnu/Krishna; the Shivaites as Shiva; the Shaktas as Divine Mother and Smartas as anything they want. The reason that these traditions have more or less harmoniously coexisted, because it was understand by each tradition that Brahman was Nirguna.

    In other words what seems to be complex is actually not that complex. The perennial philosophy that underpins them all is the Vedic religion. What makes the Vedic religion very colourful is that it has a rich storehouse of symbols, myths, fables, rituals which serve the function of teaching Vedic philosophy in a very colourful and beautiful way. Unfortunately because modern Hindu generations have lost contact with Vedic philosophy and history of Vedic relgion, the symbols, myths, fables, rituals have become decontexualised. Now without the philosophy, Hinduism simply becomes like the Abrahamic religions: mythology. There are many silly Hindus for example who take the stories in the Puranas literally, when it is obvious they are symbolic. This has lended to the misconception of polytheism and superstition that is associated with Hinduism.

    This can be remedied if we educate modern Hindus about Vedic philosophy. It should be compulsory for Hindus to read the Gita and Upanishads and have a functional understanding of the darsanas. Then, when they read the Puranas/Agamas/Tantras they will understand the context. And when they pray in the temple they will understand what the ritual represents. They should also have a knowledge of the history of India.

    In order to do this we need to spread this knowledge everywhere we can so Hindus everywhere learn about it. Not only Hindus, but even non-Hindus. I have done something towards this aim by educating by Western friends(they now appreciate Hinduism much more ) and I have done talks at the Theosophy society where I educated them on Aryan invasion theory and myth. The talk was a huge success. In fact it was so succesful they asked my for recommendations on which books and authors to avoid on Hinduism. One author I suggested was Wendy Doniger. I have posted on various forums and represented the proper Hindu view(with hit and miss results)

    Not only Western people, I have also been able to educate many Indian people. One of my university friends who was a Hindu who did not understand it and turned away from it, I was able to bring back to Hinduism. He now meditates everyday, reads the Gita and reads on Indian philosophy.

    I have also considered writing a book.

    Unfortunately, I cannot do this by myself. More and more Hindus need to get in on the campaign. We need to begin first with the internet, we need to join forums on history, politics, yoga, India, religion, philosophy, archaeology etc and spread this knowledge. Credibility comes in numbers. Even if there were 10 of us on these forums, it would be a sizable force to make an ideological influence. It is a great way of informing tens of thousands of people.

    We can reach a critical mass by spreading this information and give people an accurate view of Hinduism and issues within Hinduism(such as the missionary activity in India). The biggest problem I have faced in my education mission is I have often found myself a lone ranger. Then to make matters worse other Hindu people are spreading divergent views to what I spread, and this confuses the audience. Then credibility is lost. On top of that we have to deal with the propoganda that anybody sharing views similar to mine is a Hindu fundamentalist. To compound matters are sustained attacks by Marxist, Christian and Muslim scholars against Hinduism. The balance is currently tipped heavily against us.

    This is why I am saying a united Hindu voice is absolutely necessary if we are to fight these anti-Hindu forces and spread the message of dharma. If we cannot arrive at a consensus, there is no hope. We must as the Vedas say speak with a common voice and have a common resolve.

    I strongly believe that as soon as a united Hindu voice emerges within no time dharma will be flourishing all over this planet.

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    Re: A Need for a United Hindu Voice

    Ganeshprasad ji,

    Yes, I am aware that the term "Hindu" is originally a Persian word, which is how the Persian people pronounced the river "Sindhu" It means the people who live beyond the Sindhu river and refers to their way of life. However, the term "Hinduism" to denote the religion of the people of India is certainly of British origin. That religion was already there, but the Indian people felt no need to name it as such. This convention of labelling a religion is a Western convention. In India, Hinduism was more understood to be "dharma" which can mean religion, but the meaning of this term is far more complex than religion.

    Namaste Kallol,

    You are absolutely right that we can definitely have concensus on the knowledge aspect of HInduism. There cannot be consensus on the symbols, rituals, myths, techniques etc and there should not be, because that is what makes Hinduism so colourful and beautiful. The unity in diversity will always remain the motto of Hinduism.

    Hinduism is the only religion that cannot be defined by a founder, by any practices, or set of rituals. These are always changing based in time, space and culture. Hinduism adapts to everything. This is why it is possible to have a Hindu India, and still have Muslims and Christians, as long as they accept Hindu systems of science(In addition to the Western scientific method, Hindu metaphysics and Hindu Yogic sciences) Hindu systems of economics(varnashrama dharma - not birth based, merit based) and Hindu systems of education(gurukul) Muslims and Christians can still practice their religion, worship their gods and do their rituals. They can have the same freedom as any other Hindu on choice of symbols, rituals, myths, techniques.

    The knowledge aspect of Hinduism is simply science and therefore it is truly secular. Hindu systems of science, economics, education are all scientific. If something is scientific it means it is formally valid.

    Namaste Param,

    No, I personally believe Hinduism goes well beyond 10,000 years of history. I think it goes billions of years back and possibly our ancestors are from another star system. However, we need to keep our beliefs(and speculations) separate from facts(Hinduism is the only religion that considers belief a negative thing) Based on known evidence India history goes back 10,000 years. There is no evidence there was civilisation on this planet 17 lakh years ago. The Ram-Sethu bridge is not conclusive evidence of a bridge being constructed 17 lakh years ago. If you believe this judgement is in error, please provide us with that evidence.

    The Yuga cycle may not necessarily refer to human epochs. It seems to be describing more larger cosmic cycles. It is possible that there are smaller subcycles for humans but we have lost that data. There have been attempts to scientifically date the Ramayana, some have dated it to 7600BCE.

    We Hindus should not make the mistake that biblical creationists make by insisting on the the literal history in scripture being true. This does absolutely nothing to convince scientists. Scientists require actual evidence that they can test. I once made the mistake of saying in a seminar at university, "Not all culures agree that we have only been here for 10,000 years, Hindu yuga cycles talks about many cycles of civilisations" all I got was ridicule for stating that. So for the interests of remaining credible we have to adhere to scientific standards of evidence for dating our history.

    Thank you for correcting me on the dates of Islamic invasion. I was being lazy by giving an approx date of 1000AD. In any case we will find that Hindu rule in India is continuous from 7000BCE to 1000AD. It suffers a few setbacks with Persian invasions, then attempted invasions by Greeks(the Greeks failed to get anywhere near India) then the Huns, but it was able to still hold on. It was around 1000AD when it lost a lot of control of North India. Part of the reason for this is the weakening of the Kshatriya caste by Buddhism and Jainism. Pacifism has been a great poison to India. This continues in India with the inept National Congress government.

    India today is finding itself in a similar position vis-a-vis China. It must develop its military power and structures quickly to pose a credible threat to China. If China invades it will invade all of a sudden in massive numbers, most likely in alliance with Pakistan. Such an aggression would have to be punished by a first-use deadly nuclear strike and China needs to be told and convinced that is exactly what would happen in such a misadventure. But can you even imagine an inept and cowardly government like the Congress government ever doing such a thing? No, but a Hindu India with a revived Kshatriya spirit would.

    China does not share the same concern for losing large number of casualties as other countries do. If it lost tens of million of its own people in a war against India, but in turn got all of India, China would consider that acceptable. However, if its main cities Beijing, Shangai, Hong Kong etc were annihilated it would set China back to the stone age. No doubt about it, such a scenorio is MAD(mutually assured destruction) this is why China would not dare.

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    Re: A Need for a United Hindu Voice

    Vannakkam Surya Deva:

    The closest thing I know to what you are talking about is the magazine 'Hinduism Today' . Many of the goals that you are talking about are shared by the editors.

    But I maintain that the average Hindu simply doesn't care, in the same way that unless a global catastrophe is getting press, most of the souls on the planet simple ignore it, or go on about their own lives. A drought in Bolivia isn't going to make any dent on most people's minds outside of South America. When you talk to an individual, he or she wants to tell you about their upcoming trip back home, or their newest grandchild, or a good place to eat, not about global Hindu unity. In other words, the intellect is put to a better use (from that person's POV).

    As far as the diversity goes, how much have you travelled? Read? People see and believe only their own way, which is only natural. That is why I value 'Hinduism Today' because in one isue there will be a huge article on Nepal, then one on Guyana, then Malaysia , then all the major festivals etc. So it covers the rich diversity of everything that is termed 'Hinduism'.

    There is quite the difference between North and South, dual and nondual, intellect vs intuition, etc. and to try to say there isn't means either you haven't read about the various school's existence, or are focussed on your own. This does not imply that I want to start a fight about it.

    We're all brothers and sisters on a few basic tenets, and can all learn to respect the diversity without becoming some confused mishmash that is so common these days.

    Aum Namasivaya

  9. Re: A Need for a United Hindu Voice



    SD great thinking, but this is not possible to give evidence right now, the reserchs are still going on, NASA itself accepted that the Setu was man made and not build naturally, and it is more than 18 lakhs years old, that goes to Treta yug, Anti Hindu groups forced to change and Indian Govt. also accepted to call it Myth.



    I think it goes billions of years back and possibly our ancestors are from another star system
    Don't make a joke like that, everything is under ॐ nIrAkAr.

    If there is any mistake in yug circle than it could not be corrected due to the dark influence of Kali Yug. But if we accept any date it could not be changed by all, many astrologers have already given there own views.

    This is not possible to get rid of Congress like political groups, Anti Hindus likes them, and Hindus are divided into casteism. Even hindu parties are promoting casteism. [/font]
    And yes a point more
    The word Hindu is not a muslim given word it[/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] is much ancient, anti hindu writers says that Hindu word literally means Sindhu, but muslims were not able to pronounce S and changed to H, which is wrong
    If that could be, than how come they have S and not H in Faras (Pharsia), translation of Brahamgupt's work in Arabic is also named Sindh-Hind having both H and S in it.[/font]
    Last edited by PARAM; 13 September 2010 at 09:29 AM. Reason: clearing font
    [CENTER][B][FONT=Arial Black][SIZE=7][COLOR=Yellow] ॐ[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
    [/CENTER]

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