Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

[atanu]

Namasté Atanu
My perception is the reverse “Prakriti is playing in me – I am purusha – I am consciousness.”

namaste Snip

I am afraid i do not understand this. Prakriti (Pradhana) is jada. Prakriti may have white, red, or black colour. But the preference for a color belongs to Purusha. Atman is preference less. It some purushas (actors) may lose themselves due to preference.

Purushah prakritistho hi bhungkte prakritijaan gunaan;
Kaaranam gunasango’sya sadasadyoni janmasu.

13. 22. The soul seated in Nature experiences the qualities born of Nature; attachment to the qualities is the cause of his birth in good and evil wombs.

Prakriti is the cause, being the repository of qualities but intelligence to either get deluded or to come over is of Purusha.

What you say "---I am purusha – I am consciousness ----", is the pinnacle state. But I was talking of stepwise gain of jnana -- and in that state even prakritic objects and qualities are special modifications of consciousness.

I will give it more time.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Onkara]

Namasté Atanu

The Truth (for me) is nondual. So there is no divide between the soul and nature (Brahman and Sakti). Both arise simultaneously in a divine embrace. Maya causes the duality between them so that He may be many.

Krishna provides the answers that Arjuna requires as Arjuna’s mind prompts, so we will find what appears to be contradictory teachings, yet all are true and require examination until satisfied.

We must keep in mind that there are two vantage points; 1) that of jIva bound by the belief, born of maya, that they are prakriti (the field), and 2) that of Krishna consciousness (the field knower) which is satchitananda. Brahman is beyond space and time, as turiya it permeates all, so appears in and outside prarkriti. We must turn to Chapter 13. I have quoted and highlighted a few parts but strongly recommend reading the whole chapter again (with Sri Adi Shankara’s commentary, given all we have discussed):

The Holy Lord said:
This body is known as the Field,
And he who knows it thus is called
The Knower of the Field by those
Who know of both Field and Knower. (1)

Know Me also, O Bharata,
To be the Knower in all Fields.
The knowledge of Field and Knower
I consider as the knowledge. (2)

Outside and inside all beings;
Both the unmoving and moving;
Incomprehensible because
It is subtle and far and near. (15)

Undivided, yet It exists
As if divided in beings:
The sustainer of all beings–
He absorbs and generates them. (16)

The Supreme Purusha is called
The Looker-on in this body:
The Permitter, the Supporter,
Experiencer, Lord, and Self. (22)

[kallol]

The clarity of the consciousness and the reflected consciousness is very important for disecting the apparent togetherness of the prakriti and purusha.

The role of mind and the state of mind in enabling the consciousness in the body (which includes the senses, action organs and intellect) can only be understood in proper perspective only when the reflected consciousness phenomenon is understood.

Consciousness is the light source. Mind is the mirror which reflects the light into the dark room (the body). Both source and mirror are required to lighten the room. But mirror is not the source and by itself source cannot lighten the room. The mirror state can be different out of size, shape, colour and dust. Accordingly the life strength, will power, intellect power will get lighten up. But again they are not the sources but they perform under the presence of the consciousness (reflected).

Love and best wishes

[atanu]

Namasté Atanu
The Truth (for me) is nondual.

Namaste Snip.

I agree as this is so here as well. Yet, for me this is not experiential.

We must keep in mind that there are two vantage points; 1) that of jIva bound by the belief, born of maya, that they are prakriti (the field), and 2) that of Krishna consciousness (the field knower) which is satchitananda.

I agree too. In the context of this thread, I am looking down-Up (and not up-Down), as the question in OP was what controlled whom? In this regard, I agree to your phrasing:

The director (Brahman/Krishna) tells the actor (Clark Cable) to control the mind (this is the sword knowledge which cuts away avidya).

However, I cannot understand the following as non-dual :

And the scriptures confirm that the Atman is strung on Brahman likes pearls on a necklace: aham brahamsi.

I think this is the persistent source of difference, such as an earlier statement of yours: His mind and my mind.

What you say above is correct from VA point of view, as jivas being essentially of knowledge nature (same as Brahman), yet Jivas forming part of Brahman, as small pieces of jigsaw puzzle. As per Advaita and Dvaita, Brahman is internally and externally homogeneous.


Actually Mandukya Up. states that this Atman is Brahman. So, Atman is not a bead hung on Brahman called Krishna. Atman has no delineation and thus no limit and no shape. That is my understanding.

Let us contemplate.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Onkara]

Namaste friend Atanu
The concept of beads/pearls on a thread comes from Bhagavad Gita 7.7 (English translation alternates on the word bead/pearl/jewel):

Higher than Me, Dhananjaya,
There is absolutely nothing.
All creation is strung on Me
Like strands of jewels on a thread. (7.7)

This is a illustrative statement which one could take to be apparent differences in the Lord, bhedābheda, or in line with the Mandukya Upanishad you quote that “Atman is Brahman” and the concept should be taken to be like jewels strung on a thread. The key word in 7.7 is “like” which implies a simile in English grammar i.e. an allegorical description or metaphor to describe a difficult concept. Understood as such then Sri Krishna does not contradict the Mandukya Upanishad.

We appear to be many but the scriptures confirm that everything is Brahman. This is because creator and creation are one in Vedanta and all we are doing is discussing how this appears not to be so to our mortal minds. I totally agree with your explanation that “Brahman is internally and externally homogeneous”. The reason something appears separate or different than Brahman is due to the veiling power of maya (translated as illusion below):

This divine illusion of Mine
Is difficult to go beyond.
Only those devoted to Me
Shall pass beyond this illusion. (7.14)

As you say. Let us contemplate this

I think this is the persistent source of difference, such as an earlier statement of yours: His mind and my mind.

I am not able to find a post in this thread where I say “his mind and my mind” please quote if useful?

[Onkara]

(reduced for space only)
if we go back to the hierarchy again.
Atma-Buddhi-Manas-Indriya-Deha.
if one notices carefully, the Deha is just a tool for the sookshma sharira to interact with Prakruti.
example: if you hit a nail with a hammer, after completion, people will say that "you hit the nail" and not "the hammer hit the nail".
now if we replace the hammer with deha, hitting of nail as karma and you as the sookshma sharira(the whole package and not any single sub entity) getting the job done; then we can relate that Sri Krishna is referencing to the Sookshma sharira on the whole when He tells Arjuna to control the mind.
If He is referring to the sookshma sharira, then how are we to comprehend that the lower layers(Indriyas) can be of any help in controlling the mind, what part does buddhi play in controlling the mind and how can Atma take a part in this controlling of mind?
basically we will take only the buddhi and indriyas into consideration(As Atma is Eshwara)
Buddhi: buddhi of a person travelling the path of realisation is to be considered** then, by default,this buddhi moulds the mind in the right direction(thus doing its part in controlling the mind from wavering).
NOTE: Buddhi is doing its part in the top down approach.
Indriya: if indriyas external input signals are sent to the mind and the mind uses its existant buddhi to process and the buddhi directs the mind towards the path(as stated above), then the indriyas are passed down the result of what the buddhi concluded to the manas(thus triggering the manas to proceed further in increasing that respective guna(satvika in this case)).
this can be viewed as similiar to nuclear fission reaction where one spark(from the buddhi) can trigger the manas to increase a particular guna and thus the whole package of sookshma sharira moves in the right direction. thus the indriyas do their part of reacting accordingly and do their part of using the stoola sharira(deha) for doing karma. Hence the mind is controlled.
hope this is not too much confusing or please correct me if wrong
regards,
mukunda

buddhi of a person travelling the path of realisation is to be considered**
This is the obvious thing to be considered as irrespective of the extent of the deviation from the path, every Atma's journey will be in some minimal quantity be oriented towards the path of realisation as Atma is an amsha of the Paramatma (Bhagavad Gita 15.7)
mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah-sasthanindriyani
prakriti-sthani karshati
rough translation
The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.

Namaste mukunda

I think this is an excellent illustration! I agree that “the whole package and not any single sub entity” is at work here. The whole organism (jIva) changes for the better, under the influence of the teahing of Sri Krishna. You explain how each part (Atma-Buddhi-Manas-Indriya-Deha) must work together under sattvic guna in order to arrive at the goal Sri Krishna wills for Arjuna. Thanks!

[Onkara]

Little more addition to what Mukunda said.
(Cut for Space)
All (body, intellect and mind) act under the light of consciousness. All are enlivened and are seperate entities.

Namaste Kallolji
I agree with what you say too. The only area that I feel inclined to embellish is that on the “separate entities” of mind, intellect etc. I would say that you are correct of course, they “act under the light of consciousness” but I would also add that any sense of separation is due to nature i.e. a sense of separation. This separation is known by consciousness of course and consciousness is nondual. Enlightenment does imply that these "separate entities" will stop being seen as separate, but rather that they will all be known intuitively as the whole (Brahman) i.e. consciousness.

Edit: I overlooked your last post 23 before responding and I feel you explain this in your words on this in post 23 also.

[atanu]

Namaste friend Atanu
The concept of beads/pearls on a thread comes from Bhagavad Gita 7.7 (English translation alternates on the word bead/pearl/jewel):

Higher than Me, Dhananjaya,
There is absolutely nothing.
All creation is strung on Me
Like strands of jewels on a thread. (7.7)

Namaste Snip

Is the above verse same as "----And the scriptures confirm that the Atman is strung on Brahman likes pearls on a necklace: aham brahamsi. ---=-", which was your statement?

My Director has told me that Atman is uncreated. My Director has also instructed me to by-pass the beads, and dive deed within the common thread to know the common thread as it is. Shri Krishna as Universal Director General has also instructed thus.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Onkara]

Namaste Snip

Is the above verse same as "----And the scriptures confirm that the Atman is strung on Brahman likes pearls on a necklace: aham brahamsi. ---=-", which was your statement?

My Director has told me that Atman is uncreated. My Director has also instructed me to by-pass the beads, and dive deed within the common thread to know the common thread as it is. Shri Krishna as Universal Director General has also instructed thus.

Om Namah Shivaya

Namasté Atanu
You are correct! Thanks for picking up and correcting this.

mayi sarvam idam protam - All this on me strung.
sutre mani-gana iva - on a thread beads like.

[atanu]

Namasté Atanu
You are correct! Thanks for picking up and correcting this.

mayi sarvam idam protam - All this on me strung.
sutre mani-gana iva - on a thread beads like.

Namaste Snip

That is OK. I am gaining knowledge. Thanks for that.

Yet.

The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self (Atman); that is to be known.

So, can we equate 'All this' in 'All this strung on Me' of Gita 7.7 to Atman?

Om Namah Shivaya