Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

[atanu]

However it not incorrect to say that Brahman or consciousness is in everything and surrounds everything. The only difference is the point of view. Here is a creative illustration for enjoyment: Shakti says "I see you lord in everything, in all forms and yet beyond them too". Shiva says "I see you Shakti in me, permeated by me as the sustaining force, experier and enjoyer without separation" Together they say "I am Brahman: satchitananda".

Namaste Snip

First I will like to say a few things on the above, as I have understood and fleetingly experienced.

What you say above is not incorrect in a state of Seer, yet such possibly is not the scenario (if one can at use the word) in Turya or in the Self. If you re-examine Mandukya Up., you will see the Self is simply not the realm of seeing or thinking etc. As per Upanishads, the Self that is Brahman is homogeneous-partless-differenceless and one without a second. Similarly as per Gita:

Prakrityaiva cha karmaani kriyamaanaani sarvashah;
Yah pashyati tathaa’tmaanam akartaaram sa pashyati.

13.30. He sees, who sees that all actions are performed by Nature alone and that the Self is actionless.

It is about 'seeing' Prakriti playing. But devoid of the 'seeing', what the Self is in itself? As Gita and all Upanishads teach us, we must know it as such -- as without a second.

If you see Uttara Gita, again you will see Shri Krshna teaching: mahesvara beyond the prakriti.

Uttara Gita, Chapter I

17. The syllable (Aum) with which the Vedas begin, which figures in the middle of the Vedas, and with which the Vedas end, unites Prakrti with its Own Self; but that which is beyond this Prakrti-united-Pranava is Mahesvara.
..........
Similarly , Gaudapada Karika says that there is no one seeking, no one liberated etc. Svet. Up. says, when the light of knowledge rises there is only That.


I know this may seem to be insignificant and hair splitting, but darshanas are built on these minute differences. I am not saying as to which darshana is correct and which is incorrect -- i cannot judge. But we need to understand these differences to appreciate each other's point of view.

I hope we agree to pursue a line of choice rather than get confused.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Namaste Snip

Let me give another approximate perspective of the above. Suppose you see and know yourself through others' eyes from a distance of say 10 meters. You may see yourself from 1 meter. You may see with mind the senses or shut out senses. You may then observe the moving mind, remaining as Buddhi (intellect). Yet all this is seen and involves lower prakriti of five elements, indriya, buddhi, and ego.

What you are actually at zero meter distance?

Om Namah Shivaya

[kallol]

The two entities Purusha and Prakriti have different characteristics. One is permanent, unchanged, ever present and all pervading.

Other one is moving in waves, changing forms, shape, colour, etc.

One is the consciousness and other the inert.

But both together is God just like any of us - a mixture of higher entity (consciousness) and lower entity (inert part).

When we talk of the changes in the mind and intellect (which are parts of the inert), we need to understand the characteristics of the inert part i.e. the prakriti. The eternal waves and the basic rules it follows. That understanding will lead us to the understanding of the macro level changes in the mind and intellect.

However this has no connection with the higher level of consciousness - which is constant for all. It is the characteristics of the prakriti which determines how much it can make use of the consciousness. Small mirror - small reflection. Big mirror - big reflection. Dirty mirror - less reflection. Clean mirror - brighter reflection.

Let us treat the higher and lower seperately as exclusive of each other as entities, which does not mix or take part in each others activities. These are two sides of the tennis courts needed for one tennis court.
This might bring more clarity of the functioning.

Love and best wishes

[atanu]

The two entities Purusha and Prakriti have different characteristics. One is permanent, unchanged, ever present and all pervading.

Namaste kallol

I wish to make a point, which I will place at the end. Here i ask which purusha you are referring to, since purusha occurs at three or more levels.

One is the consciousness and other the inert.

Since you are a scientist/engineer, I will ask: "How consciousness, which manifests as thoughts and understanding and is subtler than the subtlest and which cannot be grasped, can form a surface against inert gross element, like say an arm, to move it?"

When we talk of the changes in the mind and intellect (which are parts of the inert), we need to understand the characteristics of the inert part i.e. the prakriti. The eternal waves and the basic rules it follows. That understanding will lead us to the understanding of the macro level changes in the mind and intellect.

However this has no connection with the higher level of consciousness - which is constant for all. It is the characteristics of the prakriti which determines how much it can make use of the consciousness. Small mirror - small reflection. Big mirror - big reflection. Dirty mirror - less reflection. Clean mirror - brighter reflection.

Let us treat the higher and lower seperately as exclusive of each other as entities, which does not mix or take part in each others activities. These are two sides of the tennis courts needed for one tennis court.
This might bring more clarity of the functioning.

This is my understanding as well.

But both together is God just like any of us - a mixture of higher entity (consciousness) and lower entity (inert part).

Yes. Ishwara manifests and functions with its own mAyA. But in itself what is the ungraspable conciousness -- beneath its prakriti? The question is somewhat similar to asking "What actually you are beneath the desgnation of General Manager". Or it is similar to asking "What one is at 0 meter distance?" (Which i asked Snip also). I am writing this, since, I feel if we mix concepts of different darshanas, it is difficult to follow a line. I have asked above questions (and also to Snip) for this purpose only -- not to get lost in maze of terms. I am talking from the point of view of Upanishadic statements that Atman alone is all this. To reiterate Uttara Gita:

Uttara Gita, Chapter I

17. The syllable (Aum) with which the Vedas begin, which figures in the middle of the Vedas, and with which the Vedas end, unites Prakrti with its Own Self; but that which is beyond this Prakrti-united-Pranava is Mahesvara.
.......

Ishwara, at the world controller level is united with prakriti, as controller of prakriti. But the unborn mahesvara (which Shri Krishna proclaims Himself to be) is beyond prakriti, which exists on account of existence-concsiousness-bliss -- and not the other way around. I am talking from this perspective.

Om Namah Shivaya

[kallol]

Dear Atanu,

It is a pleasure to discuss these deep topics. I hope to do my best.


1. Which purusha you are referring to, since purusha occurs at three or more levels ?

There is only one purusha. The rest are derivatives and reflections of that ONE. The purusha does not change. The apparent change is due to the reflector size, shape and colour. The apparentness is due to the POV from the position we observe. A day looks gloomy with cloud cover if we are on ground. If we are on a plane above the cloud, the day looks bright. Then if we are beyond the atmosphere in a rocket the day will look brightest. What is our POV ?

2. How consciousness, which manifests as thoughts and understanding and is subtler than the subtlest and which cannot be grasped, can form a surface against inert gross element, like say an arm, to move it?

The consciousness does not manifests as thoughts. The thoughts are inert but the consciousness makes them live.
The thoughts can be compared to the changes in the computer screen (the mind) out of the proccessing in the CPU (the intellect). The power (consciousness) enables the screen and so we can experience the thoughts.

The property of consciousness is beyond our comprehension and will remain unknown as knower cannot be known or the source cannot be enlightened. It is not subtler or subtlest - it is not an entity which can be percieved or defined.

Regarding the functioning of the arm - there are so many examples of powered systems (even these computers) like automobile assembly line robots, dedicated robots, modern washing machines, cruise missiles, smart phones, etc. The power i.e. the electricity does not play any role in the functioning except for enabling them. These smart systems take their own decisions as per the situations and act accordingly. The power only enables them. The action may be right or wrong that depends on the machine. The power has no stake in that. One is enabler other is intelligent performer. If you put a diagnostic device and connect it to the equipment, then the screen will show the processing also (this is the analogy of thoughts). Without the screen there is no way the processing can be experienced. Without the mind, we cannot have thoughts. And the mind, body (all inclusive) is enlivened (powered) by consciousness.

Different parts gets different level of power according to their need through power distribution units (PDU). If the levels of powers to each device are correct the functioning is OK. if there is a deviation , the fuctioning faulters. Same with us. Which faculty will fuction with what capability depends on the PDU (the mind with inherited charateristics).

3. Ishwara manifests and functions with its own mAyA. But in itself what is the ungraspable conciousness -- beneath its prakriti?

Again Iswara is a combination of prakriti and purusha. Just like our body changes shape, size, colour, characteristics, etc - the prakriti also does. But as the underlying reflected consciousness is there to support or enable this body, the same is the case with prakriti at macro level being enabled and supported by consciousness.

This together is a system - self sustained, self intelligent, self balanced, self contained.

I do not know whether I could grasp your queries correctly or whether my attempt to answer was in the right direction.

With all of our combined prayas and with grace of Lord, we should be able to grasp the knowledge.

Love and best wishes.

[atanu]

Namaste Kallol

Thank you for your reasoned and nice reply. I understand, as of now, possibly you are approaching the system from the dvaita/vishsitadvaita darshanas. That is not a problem, if we know our locus standii.

It is a pleasure to discuss these deep topics. I hope to do my best.
1. Which purusha you are referring to, since purusha occurs at three or more levels ?
There is only one purusha. The rest are derivatives and reflections of that ONE. The purusha does not change. The apparent change is due to the reflector size, shape and colour. The apparentness is due to the POV from the position we observe. A day looks gloomy with cloud cover if we are on ground. If we are on a plane above the cloud, the day looks bright. Then if we are beyond the atmosphere in a rocket the day will look brightest. What is our POV ?

I agree that there is only Purushottoma, who Himself says that I am Param Atman, which is immuatble, indivisible, ungraspable. Please refer to the previous post, where you said that Purusha is an entity and Prakriti another. So, is Purusha a measurable entity, just as Prakriti is? Is Param Atman a graspable entity, different from conciousness, which is unknowable and not an entity (as per you ).

I agree that the view of the one is as per the nature of reflector. But then what is this reflector and who are we? Can reflectors know anything on their own? There must be something connecting the original intelligence and the reflectors, else who knows? Reflectors cannot know.

2. How consciousness, which manifests as thoughts and understanding and is subtler than the subtlest and which cannot be grasped, can form a surface against inert gross element, like say an arm, to move it?,
The consciousness does not manifests as thoughts. The thoughts are inert but the consciousness makes them live. The thoughts can be compared to the changes in the computer screen (the mind) out of the proccessing in the CPU (the intellect). The power (consciousness) enables the screen and so we can experience the thoughts.

Agreed. That is why I had said 'consciousness, which manifests as thoughts and understanding'

The property of consciousness is beyond our comprehension and will remain unknown as knower cannot be known or the source cannot be enlightened. It is not subtler or subtlest - it is not an entity which can be percieved or defined.

This I agree. Then, is Purusha, which you had said was an entity, different from this consciousness, which is at the root of knowing and which is said to be 'All these'?

Regarding the functioning of the arm - there are so many examples of powered systems (even these computers) like automobile assembly line robots, dedicated robots, modern washing machines, cruise missiles, smart phones, etc. The power i.e. the electricity does not play any role in the functioning except for enabling them. These smart systems take their own decisions as per the situations and act accordingly. The power only enables them. The action may be right or wrong that depends on the machine. The power has no stake in that. One is enabler other is intelligent performer. If you put a diagnostic device and connect it to the equipment, then the screen will show the processing also (this is the analogy of thoughts). Without the screen there is no way the processing can be experienced. Without the mind, we cannot have thoughts. And the mind, body (all inclusive) is enlivened (powered) by consciousness. Different parts gets different level of power according to their need through power distribution units (PDU). If the levels of powers to each device are correct the functioning is OK. if there is a deviation , the fuctioning faulters. Same with us. Which faculty will fuction with what capability depends on the PDU (the mind with inherited charateristics).

The question remains. The electricity is sthula -- it is manifest, measurable, graspable (you do get electric shock). On the other hand, that which makes the electrons flow (or perceive the flow) is ungraspable and has no boundary with which it can impel a gross surface. The question remains as to how that which is ungraspable moves something, which is graspable.

3. Ishwara manifests and functions with its own mAyA. But in itself what is the ungraspable conciousness -- beneath its prakriti?Again Iswara is a combination of prakriti and purusha. Just like our body changes shape, size, colour, characteristics, etc - the prakriti also does. But as the underlying reflected consciousness is there to support or enable this body, the same is the case with prakriti at macro level being enabled and supported by consciousness. This together is a system - self sustained, self intelligent, self balanced, self contained.
I do not know whether I could grasp your queries correctly or whether my attempt to answer was in the right direction.
With all of our combined prayas and with grace of Lord, we should be able to grasp the knowledge.
Love and best wishes.

Here, IMO, we differ in major way (I do not say that I am correct). May be I am not able to understand your POV. I showed you the reference to uttara gita, which shows that mahesvara is unborn and beyond prakriti. But it seems that the point was not considered. So, let me try to paraphrase and you may comment on that.

When you say '-- this together is a system -- self sustained', do you mean that Purusha is not self sustained without Prakriti? For example, we think that we are sustained by this world. But actually Atma-Consciousness sustains this world. In deep sleep there remains no world and no time -- but we are sustained in the bestest way in deep sleep. Similary, can Prakriti exist without Turya? Or does Turya need Prakriti to sustain itself?

My main question is what is that irreducible entity/non entity which is Self and which is self sustained? Is it dependent on Prakriti for its sustenance or its existence?This clarification alone is required (both from Snip and from you) to be able to understand. Then we may clear the inconsistencies.

(My view: My nature is of me. I exist so the harsh or soft nature. But, I, as existence, is not dependent on my nature. Advaita tackles this question at the highest level, by showing the irreducible self dependent entity/no-entity by means on Neti-Neti or "Who Am I?". Transcending the lower nature, which contains the 'ego i', the "I" itself is known as the higher nature - the unmanifest moola prakriti-sarvesvara-deep sleep-shusupti, pragnya ghana -- of Paramatman. (The bodies made of 5 great elements, Mind (reflector), Buddhi (intellect), and Egoity are the lower Prakriti of Param Atman). But Param Atman obviously does not have to depend even on "I", the higher moola Prakriti -- pragnya ghana sarvesvara shushupti-deep sleep-- for self existence. And advaita holds that the Heart every where is That only, which is the controller of All -- in the Seer mode, though it is non-dual. That must be known to be rid of all agonies.

Integrating with Upanishad, Turya is the true Prabhu, which is the whole immutable system and non-dual. As Self in Shushupti it is the controller of All states that proceed from it. As Self in Taijjasa it is the ruler of BrahmA - the creator. As Self in Vaisvanaro it is All, the universe and as well as the Lord -Agni in the waking world of agni vaisvanaro.

So, through lower prakriti -- great elements, mind, intellect, egoity and through higher moola prakriti, which is ground of all manifestations, the Prabhu, Turya is the controller. But in itself it is not a controller at all -- there is nothing else to control. When it is known then there is no one seeking liberation and no one under bondage).

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

[Onkara]

Similary, can Prakriti exist without Turya? Or does Turya need Prakriti to sustain itself?

My main question is what is that irreducible entity/non entity which is Self and which is self sustained? Is it dependent on Prakriti for its sustenance or its existence?This clarification alone is required (both from Snip and from you) to be able to understand. Then we may clear the inconsistencies.

Namaste Atanu and Kallol

Atanu,
Permit me to jump in here, as I find your clarification of a question useful to re-focus thoughts. We do need to clear the inconsistencies.

My understanding is as follows. I am influenced by Advaita, intially from the Vaishnav literature but more recently I am finding Shakti-Shiva to be more appealing to my intellect.

Prakriti cannot, never has nor never will exist without turiya. Turiya, or consciousness, is the foundation for all existance. Turiya is Brahman.

Everything that prakriti requires is found in prakriti: it is a system. So food to keep the body alive is a part of the same eco-system. What allows prakriti to be experienced is turiya or consicousness. It is because you are consciousness, that you can say "I tasted the food" or "I know the body". You are consciousness experiencing prakriti. "Ignorance" arises when we identify our true self as the body i.e. as prakriti.

The way I see it is that nature (prakriti) has arisen from pure consciousness through the will of the divine i.e. the Creator (Brahman/Krishna/Shiva). However it is not independent from the Creator, but rather everything in prakriti arises, is sustained, and disolves on (or in) the foundation of the Creator (pure consciousness or turiya).

This is why turiya permeates all, yet is independent of it. So a man can kill another man, and all this goes on in prakriti only and the turiya looks on unaffected, eternal, divine. It cannot be cut or burnt, nor does it act or do.

All doing and changes occour in prakriti (by Shakti in the Shiva-Shakti view). It is for this reason described as a play on a screen, because all change is going on in the changeless foundation of turiya/consciousness/Brahman.

I hope that makes my perspective more easy to follow.

[atanu]

Namaste Atanu and Kallol

Atanu,
Permit me to jump in here, as I find your clarification, of a question useful to re-focus thoughts. We do need to clear the inconsistencies.

My understanding is as follows. I am influenced by Advaita, intially from the Vaishav literature but more recently I am finding Shakti-Shiva to be more appealing to my intellect.

Prakriti cannot, never has nor never will exist without turiya. Turiya, or consciousness, is the foundation for all existance. Turiya is Brahman.

Everything that prakriti requires is found in prakriti: it is a system. So food to keep the body alive is a part of the same eco-system. What allows prakriti to be experienced is turiya or consicousness. It is because you are consciousness, that you can say "I tasted the food" or "I know the body". You are consciousness experiencing prakriti. "Ignorance" arises when we identify our true self as the body i.e. as prakriti.

The way I see it is that nature (prakriti) has arisen from pure consciousness through the will of the divine i.e. the Creator (Brahman/Krishna/Shiva). However it is not independent from the Creator, but rather everything in prakriti arises, is sustained, and disolves on (or in) the foundation of the Creator (pure consciousness or turiya).

This is why turiya permeates all, yet is independent of it. So a man can kill another man, and all this goes on in prakriti only and the turiya looks on unaffected, eternal, divine. It cannot be cut or burnt, nor does it act or do.

All doing and changes occour in prakriti (by Shakti in the Shiva-Shakti view). It is for this reason described as a play on a screen, because all change is going on in the changeless foundation of turiya/consciousness/Brahman.

I hope that makes my perspective more easy to follow.

Namaste Snip

Ya, this is OK and clear, except for a couple points, which i think is not important, if we can accept that Turya must be known.

One point is that Brahman is defined as one whose all desires are fulfilled. This can be seen from two sides.

The second point relates to the creator brahMa, who is said to be controlled by sadashiva (om) in scripture (which I posted before). Sadashiva (Krishna) is the Self residing in Shushupti. It leaves Turya (shivam advaita atman) as desireless and partless.

Being in Prakriti, your knowledge is not wrong for either of us. Yet, mahesvara is beyond prakriti (as per scripture and as shown through citation of Uttara Gita). So, scriptures do ask us to know the Self, where there is no Sun etc.

Hope the above is acceptable.
...............

And regarding the main question of what and who controls -- i reiterate what Guptaji has already said -- eventually the Self is Prabhu.

Om Namah Shivaya

[kallol]

Dear Atanu,

Thanks for continuing the discussion. Yes it needs quite a few iterations to come to an broad level understanding.

A few thing I would like to clarify.

1. As I understand consciousness, purusha, Brahman, chit, chetana, paraprakriti are all different names of the same "entity" used at different points.

2. I termed it as an "entity" just to put a pointer towards it. The definition of it being "beyond our comprehension and will remain unknown as knower cannot be known or the source cannot be enlightened. It is not subtler or subtlest - it is not an entity which can be percieved or defined" remains the same.

3. At all levels of existence from human to the God, the systems are made of two parts / entities (however you want to term it) - Purusha (it can be also termed differently as in point 1) and Prakriti (it can be also termed differently). The purusha part is know as higher nature and the prakriti part is known as the lower nature.

4. Right from God level to human level (which is the highest form of the evolution), it is part of the same system (God). We are the subsets of the superset God but seamlessly connected by purusha and prakriti.

5. Beacuse the prakriti can change forms - we have this universe which includes us also. But it is only a change in form which is apparent from the POV of us human. From the POV of kaal it is mithya.

6. The mind (reflector) by itself cannot know anything as it is a part of prakriti. As it is also a reflector of the consciousness into the body, it acts like a local source for the body. But again it is the carrier of the gunas and karmaphalas from the earlier births which enables the present body system. That brings in the processing power of the intellect (the intelligence) - which again belongs to the prakriti but enabled by reflected consciouness (which in turn is a part of the original consciousness) - your example of multi reflection points on the waves.
Consciousness is pure - NO ATTRIBUTES.

7. Consciousness does not manifest anywhere - by definition it cannot. It is an enabler. The clarity is important. At the most we can say that the presence of consciousness is inferred through the life, thoughts, intelligence, eco system, universe, etc

8. Electricity, light, radio wave, etc are analogies and not the consciousness itself so we have to take the essence of the context. Form the POV of the machine it does not percieve the electricity. It is we who is outside the system at the level of enabler of electricity who percieves. Let us percieve the electricity from the machine POV.

9. I have not considered Maheswara as I do not know the theory of Maheswara. My knowledge does not have any Shaivism, or Vashnavism, or anything else. So without knowledge I cannot comment.

10. Purusha is independent but prakriti is dependent on purusha. As I have mentioned one is higher nature and other lower nature. But two together is the system. One (prakriti) is changing continuosly and any state is temporary like our body, like the earth, the solarsystem, galaxy and the universe. And the other (purusha) is permanent and unchanging.

Till the mind goes out of the body the continuum of the "I" remains through sleep, samadhi, unconciousness and waking condition.

Because the purusha is permanent, and the "I" sense is out of purusha, that is why again and again the scripture guides us to align the "I" to the purusha - which is permanent.

11. My main question is what is that irreducible entity/non entity which is Self and which is self sustained? Is it dependent on Prakriti for its sustenance or its existence?This clarification alone is required (both from Snip and from you) to be able to understand. Then we may clear the inconsistencies

I have already answered this in point 10. But one point we need to be clear about how far I can know. The question "who am I" can take you to the original clear reflection from the mind and nothing beyond that because beyond that the "I" discontinues to exist and there is no vehicle which can take there. I have discussed this on another thread with Snip.

Reaching that point is enough for us to get the understanding of the source and the knowledge associated out of that experience. That knowledge is the TRUTH which has been described in different ways by the great spiritual scientists.

This is Advaita as I understand but as you all are more knowledgeable in scripture than me, so you should be able to judge better.

As I understand spiritual knowledge is pure science (present and future) and totally logical.

To grasp the totality one needs God's grace. From the Advaita POV, it is easier to understand the arupam, biswarupam, bahurupam and ekarupam.

Love and best wishes

[Onkara]

Namaste Snip

Ya, this is OK and clear, except for a couple points, which i think is not important, if we can accept that Turya must be known.

One point is that Brahman is defined as one whose all desires are fulfilled. This can be seen from two sides.

The second point relates to the creator brahMa, who is said to be controlled by sadashiva (om) in scripture (which I posted before). Sadashiva (Krishna) is the Self residing in Shushupti. It leaves Turya (shivam advaita atman) as desireless and partless.

Being in Prakriti, your knowledge is not wrong for either of us. Yet, mahesvara is beyond prakriti (as per scripture and as shown through citation of Uttara Gita). So, scriptures do ask us to know the Self, where there is no Sun etc.

Hope the above is acceptable.
...............

And regarding the main question of what and who controls -- i reiterate what Guptaji has already said -- eventually the Self is Prabhu.

Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste Atanu
I agree, turiya is that which must be known. Would you be so kind to point me towards an explanation of "sadashiva", if you know of one please, I am not 100% clear on the term in its full philosophical sense?

I am not sure if you are asking a question or proposing your perspective above. If the latter then I would like to add that I agree: mahesvara is beyond prakriti and I feel that the bonds of prakriti loosen on knowing that and knowing mahesvara as our core self (as consciousness or turiya). This knowing is what fulfills all desires.

I think the original question has been explored sufficiently and I am happy to take on tangents or let this topic rest. To be honest, I enjoy exploring "what is" with you all more than feel that any one of us needs a concerte answer to any question