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Thread: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

  1. #31
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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Namaste Atanu
    In a sense we have progressed much form the original topic and I am not sure if others are interested, so I would be happy to take this off-line to focus better if you feel that would be more comfortable.

    Permit me to approach the answer in a new angle with the question based on the last line of your quote: “who is it that knows (the Self)?”

    I understand the “Fourth” to mean turiya, which is equal to chit or divine consciousness and is in Satchitandanda, which is Brahman. In other words they are the same from an Advaitin perspective. Please correct me if you do not agree or we will be talking about different things.

    Above in your quotation, we are presented with a list which pretty much implies that turiya (or divine consciousness from now on) is nothing which can be thought of. It is “unthinkable, un-inferable, action-less”. So the divine consciousness cannot be a thought. Consciousness however can still be known as the quote confirms: “this is to be known”, This “knowing” is a vital point. We should not confuse thinking with knowing here. What we know may arise as thoughts, but for the sake of finding consciousness let’s say that the knowing itself is “behind” the thoughts. Consciousness is the silent witness which knows the mind, thoughts, senses and the body (name and form). Similar to the hierarchy given by Makundaji in post number 2:

    "So the hierarchy in descending order is as follows.
    Atma
    |
    Buddhi (Intellect)
    |
    Manas(Mind)
    |
    Indriya(Senses)
    |
    Deha(Body)"

    Atman is that divine consciousness which “knows”. I don’t imply knowing facts, like the population of Dehli, but knowing all mind and sense data. Mind has thoughts. When you sit in silence, who is it that witnessing (knows) the thoughts of the mind?

    When the mind rests (in deep sleep) that which witnesses the mind rests in itself: in bliss, in pure consciousness. That which knows is always there and it knows itself through the reflection of prarkiti through the mind. Conscious being is confirmed to be in deep sleep as when one awakes one says “I slept blissfully although I remember nothing!”. That is why I say “prakriti is in me (consciousness)” Because when I am in deep sleep, prakriti no longer exists to be known by consciousness. (This part needs further explanation but please lets consider the above if you wish).


    However it not incorrect to say that Brahman or consciousness is in everything and surrounds everything. The only difference is the point of view. Here is a creative illustration for enjoyment: Shakti says "I see you lord in everything, in all forms and yet beyond them too". Shiva says "I see you Shakti in me, permeated by me as the sustaining force, experier and enjoyer without separation" Together they say "I am Brahman: satchitananda".

  2. #32
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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Indulging one more time.

    1. There are two (apparent) consciousness levels - one is the absolute and another reflected. The reflected one is because of the mind which is the only entity which can enshrine the consciousness in the body. With that reflected consciousness the body starts functioning.

    2. We all agree that the absolute consciousness is beyond our perception and can be inferred indirectly.

    3. However at the next level the reflected consciousness is connected with the mind. This is perceivable. But to reach that place we need to clean the mind to have a clear understanding of that. To clean the mind the intellect needs to be equipped with right knowledge as it is the only way to clean the mind.

    4. This reflected consciousness (in conjunction with mind) creates the sense "I". And this is the "I" we are encouraged to seek through "who am I", "self realisation" "self knowledge" etc.

    5. This is the maximum one can go in seeking the knowledge of God. It can come mostly through deep meditation on the subject "who am I" or similar metaphysical questions. Maharishi Ramana meditated on status after death.
    This enquiry when seeked with deep intensity bores through the clogs of the mind and reaches the light of consciousness and the seeker is blessed with a flash of enlightenment. That bore reaches the ocean of knowledge which pours out like spring. This knowledge helps to clean the mind further (increasing the bore diameter). This knowledge guides the seeker in his lifestyle and he is blessed with higher knowledge (knowledge of scripture). That is the lamp at the goal which I mentioned in my earlier post.

    Love and best wishes

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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Thanks for your input Kallol
    That is a spot on explanation.

  4. #34
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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snip View Post
    Namaste Atanu
    In a sense we have progressed much form the original topic and I am not sure if others are interested, so I would be happy to take this off-line to focus better if you feel that would be more comfortable.

    Permit me to approach the answer in a new angle with the question based on the last line of your quote: “who is it that knows (the Self)?”

    I understand the “Fourth” to mean turiya, which is equal to chit or divine consciousness and is in Satchitandanda, which is Brahman. In other words they are the same from an Advaitin perspective. Please correct me if you do not agree or we will be talking about different things.

    Above in your quotation, we are presented with a list which pretty much implies that turiya (or divine consciousness from now on) is nothing which can be thought of. It is “unthinkable, un-inferable, action-less”. So the divine consciousness cannot be a thought. Consciousness however can still be known as the quote confirms: “this is to be known”, This “knowing” is a vital point. We should not confuse thinking with knowing here. What we know may arise as thoughts, but for the sake of finding consciousness let’s say that the knowing itself is “behind” the thoughts. Consciousness is the silent witness which knows the mind, thoughts, senses and the body (name and form). Similar to the hierarchy given by Makundaji in post number 2:

    "So the hierarchy in descending order is as follows.
    Atma
    |
    Buddhi (Intellect)
    |
    Manas(Mind)
    |
    Indriya(Senses)
    |
    Deha(Body)"

    Atman is that divine consciousness which “knows”. I don’t imply knowing facts, like the population of Dehli, but knowing all mind and sense data. Mind has thoughts. When you sit in silence, who is it that witnessing (knows) the thoughts of the mind?

    When the mind rests (in deep sleep) that which witnesses the mind rests in itself: in bliss, in pure consciousness. That which knows is always there and it knows itself through the reflection of prarkiti through the mind. Conscious being is confirmed to be in deep sleep as when one awakes one says “I slept blissfully although I remember nothing!”. That is why I say “prakriti is in me (consciousness)” Because when I am in deep sleep, prakriti no longer exists to be known by consciousness. (This part needs further explanation but please lets consider the above if you wish).


    However it not incorrect to say that Brahman or consciousness is in everything and surrounds everything. The only difference is the point of view. Here is a creative illustration for enjoyment: Shakti says "I see you lord in everything, in all forms and yet beyond them too". Shiva says "I see you Shakti in me, permeated by me as the sustaining force, experier and enjoyer without separation" Together they say "I am Brahman: satchitananda".
    Namste Snip

    Thank you for the detailed post. My only observation and difference is in respect of terms. You had written:
    "----And the scriptures confirm that the Atman is strung on Brahman likes pearls on a necklace: aham brahamsi. ---=-",

    (and provided proof from Gita 7.7, implying that Shri Krishna was talking of Atma-s hung like beads on a same thread).


    I am not able to agree to this. I do not know whether there is any Atma, which is different from Turiya and which is also perceivable and graspable?

    Thanks a lot.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namste Snip

    Thank you for the detailed post. My only observation and difference is in respect of terms. You had written:
    "----And the scriptures confirm that the Atman is strung on Brahman likes pearls on a necklace: aham brahamsi. ---=-",

    (and provided proof from Gita 7.7, implying that Shri Krishna was talking of Atma-s hung like beads on a same thread).


    I am not able to agree to this. I do not know whether there is any Atma, which is different from Turiya and which is also perceivable and graspable?


    Thanks a lot.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Namaste Atanu
    Yes it was an error in my haste with terms, as I wanted to imply that although there appears to be a multiplicity of apparent people (or the impression that there are multiple souls) to the ignorant mind, they are all in fact the nondual Brahman as they are one with him, like pearls on a thread. As Atman is Brahman, there is no way that there is division of Atman except through the apparent form of prarkriti.


    I feel this is has been cleared up now so hope we can move on to other topics.

  6. #36
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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    Indulging one more time.

    4. This reflected consciousness (in conjunction with mind) creates the sense "I". And this is the "I" we are encouraged to seek through "who am I", "self realisation" "self knowledge" etc.
    Namaste Kallol

    Kindly permit me this observation. Just as there is one Sun and its many reflections on water bodies, the one aham -- called OM, is seen variously as many 'i' -s.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #37

    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Namaste everybody
    Atma controls .Gita..atmana .

    Therefore every atma is in the search of truth . Scriptures lead to gyan karm and bhakti .Gita cancels karm …Sarvam karmaakhilam paartha jnaane parisamaapyate.

    If you believe in karm , why not to perform the karm which overcomes the death , so gyan nulls the karm .
    Now what is gyan ? to know the truth and the Brahman at last , call it bhakti . But what after bhakti or after attaining Brahman , nobody knows . Goswamiji writes…
    jhµutheu satya jahi binu jane, jimi bhujanga binu raju pahichane.
    jehi janejaga jai herai, jage jatha sapana bhrama jai .
    .Due to lack of knowledge even the unreal passes for real, just
    as ignorance about a rope leads us to mistake it for a snake. Even so the moment we
    know Him the world of matter vanishes, just as the delusion of a dream disappears as
    soon as we wake up.

    Therefore the conclusion is Tanme manah shivsankalmastu and that mind is prayed to be controlled by atma [ the Brahman] .

  8. #38
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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Kallol

    Kindly permit me this observation. Just as there is one Sun and its many reflections on water bodies, the one aham -- called OM, is seen variously as many 'i' -s.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Absolutely spot on Atanu. It is like so many minds thus many mirrors or reflections

    Love and best wishes

  9. #39
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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Scripture does teach us about the eventual controller of all knowledge and all beings.

    mahanarayana U.

    ekavi.nsho.anuvaakaH .
    iishaanaH sarvavidyaanaamiishvaraH sarvabhuutaanaaM
    brahmaadhipatirbrahmaNo.adhipatirbrahmaa shivo me astu sadaashivom.h
    .. 1..

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Scripture does teach us about the eventual controller of all knowledge and all beings.

    mahanarayana U.

    ekavi.nsho.anuvaakaH .
    iishaanaH sarvavidyaanaamiishvaraH sarvabhuutaanaaM
    brahmaadhipatirbrahmaNo.adhipatirbrahmaa shivo me astu sadaashivom.h
    .. 1..

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Namaste Atanu
    Thanks for sharing this.
    Can we define how it controls all knoweldge and all beings? That the Lord controls I do not deny, but how or what "part" of the Lord controls the mind, I am curious to confirm

    I thank kd guptaji for your input also. You conclude it is the Atman that controls the mind through prayer. The statement that it is the Atman who is controller is in line with the great Archayas, I understand. However I feel inclined to say it is the Atman which is the silent witness and in context of the Bhagavad Gita (explored in earlier posts), I am yet to feel convinced that Atman actively controls the mind.

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