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Thread: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

  1. #11
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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snip View Post
    Namasté Atanu and friends
    Thanks for your input.

    From the above it seems kartA is something to be considered in it's own right
    Namaste Snip

    I understand kartA as actor (such as Clarke Gable while enacting a movie role). I understand Deity as the director, such as Satyajit Ray, when directing the movie. I understand the body as light and shadow of Purusha. All these -- Clarke Gable and Satyajit Ray, the Purusha became through its interaction with Pradhana. And Purusha and Pradhana are the Self.

    Else, there is no way that the Self can be absolved.

    Om Namah Shivaya

    Note: The above is for illustration only and not meant for demeaning any faith.
    Last edited by atanu; 14 September 2010 at 12:34 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Namasté Kallol and Atanu

    Your analogy, Kallol, of the weighted balls is a wonderfully explanation of how we are all unique by time and place (on the slope of karma) and yet all destined by the same forces (gravity or gunas for example). Each way I look at this analogy it is clear that it is the overall picture which is required in order to answer the question: who is it that Sri Krishna addresses when He says “control the mind”.

    Likewise, Atanu’s insight into the actor, director and the play itself summarises that the parts can be better understood when we consider the whole picture. All the parts are moving together and there is no one part which controls the mind nor can be said to be the “controller of mind”.

    So, who is it that Sri Krishna addresses with the advice to control the mind? There appears to be no single word which concludes an answer in the Bhagavad Gita. Isn’t that interesting! The point it seems is that we must first try to understand the whole teaching of Sri Krishna in order to know the answer, which you both provide above in your words.

    Thanks for your input!

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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snip View Post
    Namasté Kallol and Atanu

    Likewise, Atanu’s insight into the actor, director and the play itself summarises that the parts can be better understood when we consider the whole picture. All the parts are moving together and there is no one part which controls the mind nor can be said to be the “controller of mind”.

    So, who is it that Sri Krishna addresses with the advice to control the mind? ---
    Thanks for your input!
    Namaste Snip

    Let me rewrite the whole thing again. The Self becomes two - Purusha and Prakriti. The two inteact and the Purusha becomes many, say Clark Gable (kartA), as an actor and Satyajit Ray (Deity) as a director and so on. Now, in the particular movie, Clarke Gable is a thief and the character starts acquiring karma.

    In such cases, the actor may get so engrossed that he (say Clark Gable) may forget that he is Clarke Gable and not the thief. So, then the Director (Deity) issues a rebuke to the Actor (kartA): "Hey You. You are forgetful of the reality that you are Clark Gable and not the thief. Control your mind. "
    .......

    Else why should jnana be able to burn up sin? And otherwise, how can the teaching that the Self is taintless be true?

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  4. #14
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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Atanu has given the answer in the correct perspective.

    I will try out in a different way.

    As we advance in the knowledge level, the I part moves from body to mind to intellect ...... to brahman.

    Body part is the lower part of the pyramid where you have maximum people. The best people can move is upto the intellect level. Only a few has the capability and perseverence and grace of moving beyond.

    But till the intellect level it is difficult to judge oneself objectively as I is attached to the body-mind complex which also houses the intellect. And in difficult situation this becomes a problem - a problem of clarity.

    But again when the I moves to intellect level it starts regulating the mind.

    There are two ways to look at it. One is that we are born with a definite handicap (accumulated gunas). Let us represent that by a line of a particular length. Till the intellect line crosses that length, the mind dominates. But as the intellect line length crosses the guna line, it starts regulating the mind. This phenomenon we see as we move from childhood to adulthood.

    Another way is the behaviour of the society. When the ruling power is weak, there is chaos and disruption. But when the ruling power gets stronger and stronger, though the society may not like it, still they fall in line.

    So it is the sword of knowledge which controls mind. The seat of knowledge is the intellect. That is what Krishna was addressing to.

    Love and best wishes

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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Namasté Antau and Kallol

    Just to be clear, I was not implying that either explanation was inaccurate or needed further elaboration, but rather I was pointing out that an explanation such as yours above is required to explain the teaching of Sri Krishna because the answer to “who controls the mind?” cannot be captured completely in a single word. It is a pleasure to receive feedback.

    The intellect is not “me” (as I am atman/Brahman according to the Gurus). The intellect arises with prakriti and is also subjected to gunas as it is explained in 18.30-32. So intellect is transient in nature and not the highest truth nor the one who controls the mind. Sri Krishna asserts:

    There is no entity on earth,
    Or in heaven among the gods,
    Found devoid of these three gunas,
    Born of Prakriti, Arjuna. (18.40)


    So who is it who control the mind, as it is not the intellect, nor the kartA, nor anything on earth.

    If I am correct in how I read the analogy by Atanuji, there is an actor-kartA called “Clark Cable” who mistaking himself in the role of a thief, is reminded by the director (Deity-Brahman) that he is not a theif but the actor.

    This needs some tweaking in my humble opinion, as the kartA is prakriti and so transient and not the final truth. This is so because Atman is not the kartA.

    Knowledge too is not sentient, it alone cannot do anything, it does have the quality to change or influence prakriti. Knowledge alone is impotent, like a book of spells, it requires the other parts: mind-intellect-kartA etc to be of use.

    What is happening (in my version of the film) is as follows:

    The directory (Brahman/Krishna) tells the actor (Clark Cable) to control the mind (this is the sword knowledge which cuts away avidya). However the mind-intellect cannot be controlled as everything is under the powers of the gunas. When the realisation dawns that it is not under control, one sees that one cannot be the mind-intellect or actor(kartA) alone, as they are all moved by the gunas. All that remains is to realise that one is the silent and inactive witness – the Atman. And the scriptures confirm that all this (incl. the apparent individual) is strung on Brahman likes pearls on a necklace: aham brahamsi.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Onkara; 23 September 2010 at 04:05 AM. Reason: Corrected last paragraph in order to reference this post correctly elsewhere.

  6. #16

    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Namaste everyone,
    Snip wrote
    "So, who is it that Sri Krishna addresses with the advice to control the mind? There appears to be no single word which concludes an answer in the Bhagavad Gita"
    if we go back to the hierarchy again.
    Atma-Buddhi-Manas-Indriya-Deha.
    these are basically 2 shariras
    Deha = stoola sharira(physical)
    Indriya+Manas+Buddhi are all part of sookshma sharira for which Atma\Eshwara is the head (all these are meta physical)
    if one notices carefully, the Deha is just a tool for the sookshma sharira to interact with Prakruti.
    example: if you hit a nail with a hammer, after completion, people will say that "you hit the nail" and not "the hammer hit the nail".
    now if we replace the hammer with deha, hitting of nail as karma and you as the sookshma sharira(the whole package and not any single sub entity) getting the job done; then we can relate that Sri Krishna is referencing to the Sookshma sharira on the whole when He tells Arjuna to control the mind.
    If He is referring to the sookshma sharira, then how are we to comprehend that the lower layers(Indriyas) can be of any help in controlling the mind, what part does buddhi play in controlling the mind and how can Atma take a part in this controlling of mind?
    basically we will take only the buddhi and indriyas into consideration(As Atma is Eshwara)
    Buddhi: if buddhi of a person travelling the path of realisation is to be considered then, by default,this buddhi moulds the mind in the right direction(thus doing its part in controlling the mind from wavering).
    NOTE: Buddhi is doing its part in the top down approach.
    Indriya: if indriyas external input signals are sent to the mind and the mind uses its existant buddhi to process and the buddhi directs the mind towards the path(as stated above), then the indriyas are passed down the result of what the buddhi concluded to the manas(thus triggering the manas to proceed further in increasing that respective guna(satvika in this case)).
    this can be viewed as similiar to nuclear fission reaction where one spark(from the buddhi) can trigger the manas to increase a particular guna and thus the whole package of sookshma sharira moves in the right direction. thus the indriyas do their part of reacting accordingly and do their part of using the stoola sharira(deha) for doing karma. Hence the mind is controlled.
    hope this is not too much confusing or please correct me if wrong
    regards,
    mukunda

  7. #17

    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Namaste everyone,
    Snip wrote
    "So, who is it that Sri Krishna addresses with the advice to control the mind? There appears to be no single word which concludes an answer in the Bhagavad Gita"
    if we go back to the hierarchy again.
    Atma-Buddhi-Manas-Indriya-Deha.
    these are basically 2 shariras
    Deha = stoola sharira(physical)
    Indriya+Manas+Buddhi are all part of sookshma sharira for which Atma\Eshwara is the head (all these are meta physical)
    if one notices carefully, the Deha is just a tool for the sookshma sharira to interact with Prakruti.
    example: if you hit a nail with a hammer, after completion, people will say that "you hit the nail" and not "the hammer hit the nail".
    now if we replace the hammer with deha, hitting of nail as karma and you as the sookshma sharira(the whole package and not any single sub entity) getting the job done; then we can relate that Sri Krishna is referencing to the Sookshma sharira on the whole when He tells Arjuna to control the mind.
    If He is referring to the sookshma sharira, then how are we to comprehend that the lower layers(Indriyas) can be of any help in controlling the mind, what part does buddhi play in controlling the mind and how can Atma take a part in this controlling of mind?
    basically we will take only the buddhi and indriyas into consideration(As Atma is Eshwara)
    Buddhi: buddhi of a person travelling the path of realisation is to be considered** then, by default,this buddhi moulds the mind in the right direction(thus doing its part in controlling the mind from wavering).
    NOTE: Buddhi is doing its part in the top down approach.
    Indriya: if indriyas external input signals are sent to the mind and the mind uses its existant buddhi to process and the buddhi directs the mind towards the path(as stated above), then the indriyas are passed down the result of what the buddhi concluded to the manas(thus triggering the manas to proceed further in increasing that respective guna(satvika in this case)).
    this can be viewed as similiar to nuclear fission reaction where one spark(from the buddhi) can trigger the manas to increase a particular guna and thus the whole package of sookshma sharira moves in the right direction. thus the indriyas do their part of reacting accordingly and do their part of using the stoola sharira(deha) for doing karma. Hence the mind is controlled.
    hope this is not too much confusing or please correct me if wrong
    regards,
    mukunda

    buddhi of a person travelling the path of realisation is to be considered**
    This is the obvious thing to be considered as irrespective of the extent of the deviation from the path, every Atma's journey will be in some minimal quantity be oriented towards the path of realisation as Atma is an amsha of the Paramatma (Bhagavad Gita 15.7)
    mamaivamso jiva-loke
    jiva-bhutah sanatanah
    manah-sasthanindriyani
    prakriti-sthani karshati

    rough translation
    The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.

  8. #18
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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Little more addition to what Mukunda said.

    Heirarchy wise intellect is above mind but again mind is the gatekeeper for inputs and outputs. It acts like I/O port with filters.

    So the cycle (sensory organ to) mind to intellect to mind (to action organ) can become an obstruction in case we clog (through karma) the mind more and more and can become an enabler if cleared (through karma) more and more.

    It is like driving up the mountain and driving down the mountain. Initial part of unclogging is tough - needs bhakti, (sakama to niskama), karma (sakama to niskama) and enter the gyana part. Once the gyana part is reached the flow of TRUE knowledge accelerates the cleaning part.

    The mirror (mind) becomes cleaner and the light of brahman starts enlightening (reflected consciousness) the intellect more and more. This in turn cleans the mirror faster.

    Though the knowledge is dumb but the enabled intellect uses the knowledge to clean the mind.

    All (body, intellect and mind) act under the light of consciousness. All are enlivened and are seperate entities.

    Love and best wishes

  9. #19
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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snip View Post
    Namasté Antau and Kallol

    If I am correct in how I read the analogy by Atanuji, there is an actor-kartA called “Clark Cable” who mistaking himself in the role of a thief, is reminded by the director (Deity-Brahman) that he is not a theif but the actor.

    This needs some tweaking in my humble opinion, as the kartA is prakriti and so transient and not the final truth. This is so because Atman is not the kartA.

    Thanks!
    Namaste Snip

    That's not what was meant exactly, although, as a step towards revelation, the above is also not wrong. Next step would be "You are Clarke gable, who has the nature of an actor". Then, "You are the Purusha playing in Prakriti". Then "You are That".

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Who or what controls the mind and intellect, according to the Bhagavad Gita?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Snip

    That's not what was meant exactly, although, as a step towards revelation, the above is also not wrong. Next step would be "You are Clarke gable, who has the nature of an actor". Then, "You are the Purusha playing in Prakriti". Then "You are That".

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Namasté Atanu
    My perception is the reverse “Prakriti is playing in me – I am purusha – I am consciousness.” This is why I can say that from the perspective of purusha there are “no steps towards revelation” nor away from it, as I am beyond the play yet witnessing it as an apparent part or jIva. As the jIva I can say “I make steps or I don’t know”.

    These two perspectives, (purusha and jIva) are something which you and I need to ensure we match equally when speaking or we will become muddled by syntax. Speaking from the state of purusha brings greatest clarity on these spiritual topics imho.

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