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Thread: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

  1. #21
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    Re: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

    Harjas Kaur, thanks for making it more explicit why Hinduism is incongruent with Islam.

    There's also the problem that anyone can come up with a religion. Hinduism has boundaries, we can't indiscriminately accept the teachings of other religions. Someone could turn Walt Disney in a religion and claim that you can reach moksha by reading the kathamrita of Donald Duck, chanting the names of Mickey Mouse and going to pilgrimage in Disney Land. Seems silly, doesn't it?
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 23 September 2010 at 06:59 PM.

  2. #22

    Re: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

    Eastern Mind writes:
    "The current ethnic cleansing that has been going on and continues in Sri Lanka pits 'Buddhists' versus Hindus. Ethnic cleansing has to be one of the gravest problems for mankind."
    Dear, are you insinuating that Buddhism and Hinduism teach ethnic cleansing the way in which Islam does? If you believe so, kindly don't spout outrageous opinions but validate your assumptions with fact. Put up or shut up! SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE!~

    Mind you, Hindu Dharma legitimizes military force in SELF-DEFENSE. And unfortunately there are political people in every community who agitate on basis of communal politics. ISLAM is unique in all the world for politicizing RELIGION and making COMMUNAL POLTICS an article of FAITH.

    HENCE MY OBJECTION THAT ISLAM CANNOT BE A TEACHING OF BHAGAVAN KRISHNA NOR CAN MOHAMMED BE HIS PROPHET!~

  3. #23
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    Re: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

    Vannakkam: I humbly bow out of this conversation then. I do not wish to anger anyone.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

    Krishna does say in the Bhagavad-Gita (7:21-22) that whatever form a devotee worships, Krishna makes the devotee's faith steady and he receives what he desires, which is actually being ordained by Krishna.

    So if one decided to worship God as Elvis or Michael Jackson, would Krishna's promise still apply?

  5. #25

    Re: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

    And for this reason, for example, Shri Guru Granth Sahib says the conception of God, Allah of the Muslims is the same as the conception of God, Rama for the Hindus. GOD IS GOD, and even as understanding of Him varies dramatically Sanatana Dharma NOWHERE deprives Islam of a legitimate belief in God. But NOWHERE do the Sikh Guru Sahibaan ELEVATE AL-ISLAM as a religious PATH as equal to the Dharma, and point out in a number of places where it has been cruel. NOR ANYWHERE CLAIM that MOHAMMED is His PROPHET or even that Quran is a holy book!~

    Moreover Bhagavan Krishna says who worships SINCERELY in whatever form is coming closer to BHAGAVAN. And in no way should this be misconstrued to effect that murderous doctrines and intolerant teachings which justify rape and genocide and forced conversions are ANY EQUIVALENT of Sanatana Dharma!

    So it cannot be correct, moreover IN THIS VERY THREAD has already been shown Shruti of Sanatana Dharma WARNS AGAINST following certain paths as those lead to HORROR. And I can think of no other path but that one which justified Adharma which would create that end result.

    And EVEN IN THIS, while I believe legitimately in hell realms created by our karmas, THEY ARE NOT PERMANENT. Nor are they punishment for unbelievers, rather a description of the just punishment for evil-doing. AND EVEN AFTER SOJOURN IN HELL REALMS, the bhoots and prets can obtain liberation. SO Bhagavan Krishna's words are beyond question the literal truth of it and in no way JUSTIFICATION OR EQUIVALENCE that evil-doing/ADHARMA is a road which leads to the same end as the practice of Dharma!

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    Re: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

    Vannakam EM:

    Yes, I believed in my rashness and ego, I set off a rather large can of worms. At this point, having reduced my ego day by day, I feel posting my beliefs would go against humility and kindness to others (Ironic, very much). However I do feel a need to say this about my original post: When I say every path leads to the same end, I do not mean to intend that that path is illuminated, that the path is agreeable to all. I'm just saying that if you follow any path it all leads to Brahman and dissolution of the consciousness into the universe.

    Take for example, Suicide bombers. For most of the world, this is an atrocity of great gravity and evil. I believe that it is wrong as well. But take a look from the perspective of those doing it. They have not necessarily been brainwashed by al-qaeda, or Hamas or other extremist groups. In Israel (learning this from my sociology textbook) the palestinians do not simply become suicide bombers for the sole purpose of attaining paradise, there are other factors that come into play. there is the concept of revenge, and of course there is the celebrity among those who believe that the bombers are doing the right thing. It is as Durkheim put it "altruistic suicide" whether it be good or bad is all a matter of perspective.

    Now of course there are exceptions, for example, Hitler, he was by all accounts a very amoral, sociopathic man, who had too much ambition and intolerance, and not enough understanding. Because of this, the Shoah (more commonly known as the Holocaust) occurred. Genocide is unforgivable. And if Stanley Milgrams experiment is any indication, then sometimes people will leave their comfort zone in the face of high authority. So the people who lived in germany, the Nazis. Were they all evil? Some maybe, but not all, some were forced into this work.

    And then there is the stanford prison experiment, which proved that role taking can cause some serious changes in personality (the guards became brutal and the prisoners, apathetic).

    But I am digressing. the point I am trying to make is that the moral high road, or the true path is different for everybody, even if only minutely. The differences of belief will inevitably lead to conflict (which this thread has proven) I believe that Sanatana Dharma is one of the most fully realized and complete religions that exists as it is not just terra-centric. It has all encompassing beliefs and is truly a religion which is diverse, yet accepting.

    I apologize if people misinterpreted my words to mean that all paths are prosperous and good. I simply stated that they are right for the person on it, which should be distinguished from good. I hope that isn't too contradictory and/or long winded and/or completely off topic. I haven't checked this post in days mainly because I am afraid of what I'll find. So please, let us just stop arguing about this.

    Namaste

  7. #27

    Re: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

    If people stop arguing about things, then nobody would ever learn or hammer out a better understanding of things. Thanks for your clarification. In my experience confronting the errors of strict pacifism and radical universalism and Muslim appeasement are critical for the well-being and continued existence of Hindu society.

  8. #28
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    Re: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

    namaste everyone.

    I am surprised so much water has flown into this thread in just one day when my broadband connection was down!

    This thread is similar to the thread 'Hindu Universalism' that saw copious arguments:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4982

    Many of us quote KAnchi ParamAchArya out of context, trying to read our own thoughts of Hindu Universalism in his teachings. Here is a summary of some main points of his teachings in chapter 6 and 7, which could help us grasp the message of the seer's teachings:

    All religions have one common ideal, worship of the Lord, and all of them proclaim that there is but one God. This one God accepts your devotion irrespective of the manner of your worship, whether it is according to this or that religion. So there is no need to abandon the religion of your birth and embrace another. ... the Paramatman who wants to grace the worshipper, whatever be his faith, is the same.

    The key words here are 'worship' and 'grace', and this teaching is as much to non-Hindus as it is to Hindus.

    Why do people embrace a new faith? Is it not because that the continuance in the religion of their birth would mean a denial of the blessings of the God of the new faith to which they are attracted? This means that they place limitations on their new religion as well as on its God. When they convert (from Hindu Dharma) to a new religion, apparently out of respect for it, they indeed dishonour it.

    This is more a teaching for Hindus who are influenced by the conversion efforts of the Western religions than to a non-Hindu becoming a Hindu. The key word is the religion of their birth, whose implication IMO is more for Hindus than for non-Hindus.

    Why should it be so? Because the AchArya in the succeeding paragraphs speaks of how Hinduism is the only faith that "does not proclaim that it alone shows the path to liberation", and that

    Our Vedic religion alone has not practiced conversion and the reason for it is that our forefathers were well aware that all religions are nothing but different paths to realise the one and only Paramatman.

    In that very paragraph, the AchArya says emphatically:

    This is the reason why the Hindus have not practiced--like adherents of other religions- proselytisation and religious persecution. Nor have they waged anything like the crusades or jehads.

    This could only mean that the AchArya does NOT approve of the doctrines and methods of the Western religions, which in turn means that since their motive and methods are wrong, their path cannot be right, because although Paramatman is one, these religions do not have faith that the One God they perceive can have other names and forms (like our Vedic seers had).

    In the next paragraph, the AchArya says:

    All historians accept the fact of our religious tolerance. They observe that, an empire like Srivijaya was established in the East, people there accepted our culture and our way of life willingly, not because they were imposed on them by force. They further remark that Hinduism spread through trade and not through force.

    This means that he accepts non-Hindus of their own volition seeking Hinduism as their faith today, so his earlier talk about a man forsaking the religion of his birth is meant for the Hindus who seek to convert.

    It would be a serious mistake IMO to quote selectively from other paragraphs of this article, with no reference to the last paragraph wherein he says (emphasis added):

    That the beliefs and customs of the various religions are different cannot be a cause for complaint. Nor is there any need to make all of them similar. The important thing is for the followers of the various faiths to live in harmony with one another. The goal must be unity, not uniformity.

    In this concluding paragraph, the AchArya sums up all his earlier points:

    • that there is only One God who is worshipped in all religions
    • that the names and forms of God are widely different across religions
    • that the practices of worship are different, but God accepts them all
    • whatever the religion, liberation is purely by God's grace
    • that the aggression of Western religions towards enforcing uniformity are wrong and adharmic.
    • that the real goal must be unity because the ultimate goal of religions is the One God.

    Later on, under other topics, the AchArya teaches:

    The decay of a religion in any country could be attributed to the lack of character of its leaders and of the people constituting the establishment responsible for its growth.

    We must not censure those who convert people to their faith. They believe that their religion represents the highest truth. That is why they practice conversion by compulsion or by placing various temptations before people belonging to other faiths. Let us take it that they try to bring others into their fold because they believe that that is the only means of a man's salvation.

    This only shows that the AchArya does not doubt the belief behind the doctrines and efforts of conversion, although it may be wrong. This does not imply that we must blindly succumb to such efforts, only that we need to counter the situation spiritually rather than by physical aggression.

    If religions that resort neither to force nor to money power have grown, it is solely because of the noble qualities of their teachers.

    If a militant proselytizer appears on the scene, I shall not be able to gather a force to combat him. Nor can I spend crores and crores like those religious propagandists who build schools and hospitals to entice people into their faith. Even if I were able to do so, conversions carried out in such a manner would be neither true nor enduring. We should not, therefore, depend on such outward forces to promote our religion but instead rely on our Atmic strength to raise ourselves. In this manner our religion will flourish without any need for aggressive propaganda or the offer of inducements.

    This is the solution the AchArya offers, which he reiterates in the concluding paragraphs:

    But the common people need the example of a great soul, a great life [not abstract principles].
    A man of peace and compassion, a man of wisdom and self-sacrifice, must arise from our midst.

    Thus, IMHO, KAnchi ParamAchArya does not advocate 'Radical Universalism', since he obviously disapproves of proselytisation and religious persecution, and says that we must encounter them spiritually by raising ourselves rather than physically fighting them.

    **********
    Last edited by saidevo; 24 September 2010 at 06:40 AM.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  9. #29
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    Re: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post
    Krishna does say in the Bhagavad-Gita (7:21-22) that whatever form a devotee worships, Krishna makes the devotee's faith steady and he receives what he desires, which is actually being ordained by Krishna.

    So if one decided to worship God as Elvis or Michael Jackson, would Krishna's promise still apply?
    Namaste Scott

    Thank you for bringing some real questions.

    Not all worship are equal and neither all yield same result. . Shri Krishna says: 7.21. Whatsoever form any devotee desires to worship with faith—that (same) faith of his I make firm and unflinching. It is obvious that the result is as per faith. If the vision and wants are limited the fruit also will be same. Thus it is not actually good to get stuck on a limited aim. The same is said in Veda, when it teaches that one contemplating on Indra with scattered mind intensifies the same scattering. Below is a collection on the subject from Gita.


    Sarvabhootasthitam yo maam bhajatyekatwamaasthitah;
    Sarvathaa vartamaano’pi sa yogee mayi vartate.
    6.31. He who, being established in unity, worships Me who dwells in all beings,—that Yogi abides in Me, whatever may be his mode of living.

    Yoginaamapi sarveshaam madgatenaantaraatmanaa;
    Shraddhaavaan bhajate yo maam sa me yuktatamo matah.
    6. 47. And among all the Yogis, he who, full of faith and with his inner self merged in Me, worships Me, he is deemed by Me to be the most devout.

    Yo yo yaam yaam tanum bhaktah shraddhayaarchitum icchati;
    Tasya tasyaachalaam shraddhaam taameva vidadhaamyaham.
    7. 21. Whatsoever form any devotee desires to worship with faith—that (same) faith of his I make firm and unflinching.

    Antavattu phalam teshaam tadbhavatyalpamedhasaam;
    Devaan devayajo yaanti madbhaktaa yaanti maamapi.
    7. 23. Verily the reward (fruit) that accrues to those men of small intelligence is finite. The worshippers of the gods go to them, but My devotees come to Me.

    Mahaatmaanastu maam paartha daiveem prakritimaashritaah;
    Bhajantyananyamanaso jnaatwaa bhootaadimavyayam.
    9.13. But the great souls, O Arjuna, partaking of My divine nature, worship Me with a single mind (with the mind devoted to nothing else), knowing Me as the imperishable source of beings!

    Ye’pyanyadevataa bhaktaa yajante shraddhayaa’nvitaah;
    Te’pi maameva kaunteya yajantyavidhipoorvakam.
    9. 23. Even those devotees who, endowed with faith, worship other gods, worship Me only, O Arjuna, but by the wrong method!

    Samo’ham sarvabhooteshu na me dweshyo’sti na priyah;
    Ye bhajanti tu maam bhaktyaa mayi te teshu chaapyaham.
    9.29. The same am I to all beings; to Me there is none hateful or dear; but those who worship Me with devotion are in Me and I am also in them.

    Api chet suduraachaaro bhajate maamananyabhaak;
    Saadhureva sa mantavyah samyagvyavasito hi sah.
    9.30. Even if the most sinful worships Me, with devotion to none else, he too should indeed be regarded as righteous, for he has rightly resolved.

    Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate;
    Iti matwaa bhajante maam budhaa bhaavasamanvitaah.
    10. 8. I am the source of all; from Me everything evolves; understanding thus, the wise, endowed with meditation, worship Me.

    Yajante saattwikaa devaan yaksharakshaamsi raajasaah;
    Pretaan bhootaganaamshchaanye yajante taamasaa janaah.
    17. 4. The Sattwic or pure men worship the gods; the Rajasic or the passionate worship the Yakshas and the Rakshasas; the others (the Tamasic or the deluded) worship the ghosts and the hosts of nature-spirits.

    Yatah pravrittirbhootaanaam yena sarvamidam tatam;
    Swakarmanaa tamabhyarchya siddhim vindati maanavah.
    18.46. He from whom all the beings have evolved and by whom all this is pervaded, worshipping Him with his own duty, man attains perfection.

    Adhyeshyate cha ya imam dharmyam samvaadamaavayoh;
    Jnaanayajnena tenaaham ishtah syaamiti me matih.
    18. 70. And he who will study this sacred dialogue of ours, by him I shall have been worshipped by the sacrifice of wisdom; such is My conviction.
    But conviction of Unity - Sarvabhootasthitam (6.31), faith that Lord is omnipresent and impartial (9.29), from whom all beings have evolved (10. 8 and 18.46); and a undivided worshipful mind of yogi (9.13) are taught as highest mode of worship.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 24 September 2010 at 10:07 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  10. #30
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    Re: All roads lead to the same end. (my conception of god)

    Admin Note

    Thread review completed. All irrelevant posts and their replies have been removed. Please save everyone some time and do not engage in personal attacks.
    Last edited by satay; 28 September 2010 at 12:50 PM.
    satay

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