Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 32

Thread: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

  1. #11
    Join Date
    November 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    839
    Rep Power
    1029

    Re: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    What is meant with false doctrine? Even Hinduism has the discrimination to consider certain doctrines to be false, either philosophically or morally.

    I don't think that the abrahamitic religions are crossing the line by saying that other religions are false. Atheism says that religions are false, by definition of atheism. Religion says that atheism is false, by definition of religion. If I believe that the flying spaghetti monster is a false God, that should not be a problem for a Pastafarian. The Pastafarian believes that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a real God, but he should respect my belief that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a false God. So far, I don't see any problem. The problem starts when the Church of Pastafarianism starts to be violent, intollerant and demeaning to members of other faiths and other people who do not believe in the flying spaghetti monster. These charasteristics of violence and intolerance are inherent to the abrahamitic faiths and that's where the line is being crossed.

    Yes, universalism is not an adequate cure for intolerance and violence. The inherent flaws of Islam, Christianity and Judaism need to be recognised. Universalism actually was not invented in India. It's often thought that Hinduism is syncretic of nature and that this syncretic nature led to the concept of universalism when India came in contact with the western world. This is nonsense of course. The concept of universalism started in the west. The mathematician Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz for example worked on a theory to unify all religions. He lived a century before the universalist reformers of India. Universalism is not something that originated in India, it's a western concept that has been imposed on Hinduism the last 150 years.

    Along with marxism and christianity, universalism has led people to believe that Hinduism is a religion of superstition, blind faith and caste corruption. The irony is that the universalist Hindus are repeating the same demeaning words to describe authentic aspects of Hinduism like faith in murti puja, the puranas, the Hindu avataras and varnashrama dharma. All while the same universalists are equating Jesus to the Supreme Being and consider the koran to be a form of shruti. All while their gurus perform magic tricks to increase superstition, while universalist believe their guru is an avatara, increasing blind faith and while these gurus give priviliges to people with high financial status, increasing "caste" corruption.

    So by covering up things with a universalist attitude, foreign concepts can easily infiltrate and corrupt Hinduism. Not nice, indeed. The absurd concept of Radical Universalism, I will openly say, is a false doctrine. But I wouldn't cross the line like the Abrahamitics, Hinduism doesn't teach physical violence against people who disagree with your religion or philosophy, but the abrahamitic scriptures do. Long story short, I have no problem with the use of the word false combined with the word God or religion, or even with words like blasphemy or heresey. In my opinion the abrahamitic faiths have thaught false, even dangerous and ignorant doctrines. The use of the word false is not where the line is being crossed from my point of view. The use of the word false is sometimes necessary to define your own faith philosophically.
    Yes, I think this is a good point. The problem isn't necessarily the "false religion" language. Even in India centuries ago, gurus worked to virtually eradicate Buddhism from the land of its own birth. But the key is that they did it by debate, not by violence. The problem isn't belief in objective truth (which necessitates the existence of falsehood). The problem, I think, is the Christians' belief in an eternal hell reserved for non-Christians. When you believe that people who disagree with you will suffer the eternal wrath of God, you start to believe that the hell-bound are deserving of their faith. And it becomes that much easier to demonize and mistreat them. We Hindus don't believe that Buddhists are going to hell for not being Hindus, and so we don't go out on Buddhist witch hunts. Jews likewise don't have any hell doctrine, and maybe that's why their religion was never terribly oppressive in spite of their vehement belief that non-Jewish religions are false.

    The doctrine of eternal condemnation for non-Christians is, I believe, responsible for Christian intolerance, as well as intolerance's cousin: missionary work. Christians send missionaries because they believe that we are all going to hell unless they convert. I have noticed how missionaries and domestic evangelists will usually have a sincere desire for the well-being and salvation of Hindus and other non-Christians. They'll play Indian dress up, watch Bollywood, and even practice vegetarianism in the company of Christians (just look up that guide to converting Hindus which was floating around HDF a few months ago). And then, when they realize that we're not going to convert, they become violent and disdainful of Hindus. All of this, because of a misguided belief that God has prepared some hell for people who don't convert to Christianity.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    mrityuloka
    Age
    52
    Posts
    3,729
    Rep Power
    337

    Re: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

    namaste sanjaya,

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjaya View Post
    They'll play Indian dress up, watch Bollywood, and even practice vegetarianism in the company of Christians (just look up that guide to converting Hindus which was floating around HDF a few months ago).
    Did I miss something? A guide to convert hindus was floating around on HDF? Can you point me to it?
    satay

  3. #13
    Join Date
    November 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    839
    Rep Power
    1029

    Re: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaste sanjaya,



    Did I miss something? A guide to convert hindus was floating around on HDF? Can you point me to it?
    Sorry Satay, I meant to say that they practice vegetarianism in the company of Hindus.

    Do you remember the guide that was talked about on HDF about steps Christians can take to try and convert us? I'll try to dig it up tomorrow.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    It's not really believing that other religions are false, it's the intollerance for other people to believe in religions that are false from your own point of view. From a vedic point of view even Buddhism and Jainism are false religions, but the vedic people respect others free choice of religion.
    I don't think those two are mutually exclusive. If one starts to believe "their" path is the only (true) one, and that other paths are "false", we are no different from the abrahamic vermin (jews/christians/muslims).

    In fact, as Hindus, when we say other paths are "valid", what we mean is that the path that one chooses (born into for example), is the "true" path for that person in this lifetime. We believe that through many lifetimes, hopefully of progress, one would be born into Hinduism.

    Of course, this doesn't mean that if one were to follow another "religion", one would not be able to attain moksha. That is dependent on the level of the person. It is of course quite obvious that once the soul is evolved, one is born a Hindu.

    By saying others are following a "false" path, we become exclusivist, much like the stupid abrahamics, and thus drag ourselves down to their level (very low).

  5. #15
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMe View Post
    I had an interesting exchange on this last night. In it, this Pew survey came up. I didn't see it coming.

    U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
    http://www.pewforum.org/U-S-Religiou...-Religion.aspx

    In it, it was found that atheists and agnostics scored the highest on religious knowledge (for their questions). 3rd and 4th go to Jews and Mormoms.

    Putting the four groups together, it occurs to me that, after looking at a religious breakdown of the US, that these are very small groups.
    http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

    And putting that together, that perhaps the most generally shared beliefe are the least questioned.

    In my (limited) experience with (karma) Hindus, such as the ones I have worked with, proud of India but very few were at all versed in Indian philosophy. In the case of Americans, proud of the forefathers and the constitution, but have never read it. This survey shows 28%.
    http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2...ion-ar-510096/
    You should point out that the quiz was taken mostly by Americans. Americans are woefully ignorant in all matters that concern other traditions, countries, and cultures. I suppose their reasoning for why christians are so stupid (that they don't bother reading about other traditions or even reading their own for that matter) is somewhat accurate.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    June 2010
    Location
    Kolkata
    Posts
    834
    Rep Power
    491

    Re: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

    I am bit confused.

    Are there many paths to Moksha ?

    As per SD - NO. It is a single path. But people are at different time, space and material. That is why they are unique.

    The path is difficult uphill in the begining till the niskama karma /bhakti is reached. Thereafter it is a fast / accelerating downhill of gyana phase.

    This uphill part is the non-bhakti, bhakti and sakama karma/bhakti part.

    How that is packaged - it varies from religion to religion with a mix of the culture, compulsion, time, space, society, understanding of TRUTH, philosophy, etc.

    Thus the religions out of Middle East has similar flavour and the religions out of India has similar flavour. All of them have same ingrediants but in different proportions.

    It is these proportions that differentiates the religions from each other.

    Path is same - but teachers, perception, understanding, teaching methods, etc varies. Again at the religion level, the vision is mostly the bhakti development part. So the knowledge of SD or the TRUTH remains invisible (the other side of the hill). Though smell out of it might be available to the devotees to keep them motivated.

    Love and best wishes

  7. #17

    Re: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjaya View Post
    Yes, Even in India centuries ago, gurus worked to virtually eradicate Buddhism from the land of its own birth.
    This is a wrong fact, India had wide spread buddhist culture till 11th-13th centuries and gradually disappeared with the Islamic invasions. Hindu "gurus" had no role in "eradication" of buddhism and this is a fact every buddhist also knows. The ruins of the islamic destruction of buddhist institutions are still places of tourist attraction in India.

    In debates buddhism was merely debunked in "academic" circles...it may have put some sort of check on the further buddhist evangelicism, but that too will be just a speculation. It could have hardly effect the normal day to day life of ordinary citizens.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  8. #18

    Re: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    In fact, as Hindus, when we say other paths are "valid", what we mean is that the path that one chooses (born into for example), is the "true" path for that person in this lifetime. We believe that through many lifetimes, hopefully of progress, one would be born into Hinduism.
    This is specifically a smarta viewpoint and other hindu sects particularly saiva have historically been evangelical, but in a sober manner. The lost saiva civilizations in far east (only surviving as tourist attraction in bali) are the point in case.

    The orthodox smartas who believe one must be born in the dharma to be a valid practioners are the least universalist of all. This belief is not driven, by a belief in religious oneness but rather on an almost fanatical belief in purity, which is driven by birth and samaskaras.

    That all religions are the same is just a terrible hoax and has nothing to do with traditional hinduism in any sense, how much one want's to believe and propagate the same.

    It is completely wrong to think that tolerance have to do with believing that everything must be equally true and valid. Indian history is a point in case as is the history of the ancient world.

    Tolerance itself is an inborn human quality which is to be further cultivated and cherised. It is an instinct to most people, and need not be the causal result of an (pseduo) intellectual process of univesalism. Simple villagers, or the red indians who greeted the 1st while men in america, were simply tolerant by nature. See a new thing, a few white people in a ship, didn't result in the instinct to finish it or destroy it. Hence it also didn't need this pseduo intellectual and completely false justification, that for something to be valid it must be same as mine.

    If you think deeply this universalism springs from that same bigoted mind set which thinks that one religion must rule the earth...and indeed is product of that part of the world, as sahasranama has pointed.

    For true tolerance to develop one must go beyond this great evil of universalism, and develop the basic intellectual honesty in our own beliefs and still being able to accept the existence which does not fit our worldview gracefully.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    January 2010
    Location
    tadvishno paramam padam
    Age
    38
    Posts
    2,168
    Rep Power
    2547

    Re: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    I don't think those two are mutually exclusive. If one starts to believe "their" path is the only (true) one, and that other paths are "false", we are no different from the abrahamic vermin (jews/christians/muslims).

    In fact, as Hindus, when we say other paths are "valid", what we mean is that the path that one chooses (born into for example), is the "true" path for that person in this lifetime. We believe that through many lifetimes, hopefully of progress, one would be born into Hinduism.

    Of course, this doesn't mean that if one were to follow another "religion", one would not be able to attain moksha. That is dependent on the level of the person. It is of course quite obvious that once the soul is evolved, one is born a Hindu.

    By saying others are following a "false" path, we become exclusivist, much like the stupid abrahamics, and thus drag ourselves down to their level (very low).
    I didn't say they are mutually exclusive. In the grand scheme of things, you are right. A Christian may eventually reach the highest goal of human life. Christianity may be the right path for a person, if Christianity helps someone to be a better person in this world by making better karmic choices. But the mere acceptence of Jesus Christ or his worship will not lead to anything. It will not save a person from taking chaurasi lakha births, before being born as a human being again. Mere devotion for mother Mary is not any better than devotion for Jessica Alba or Aishwarya Rai, from a shastric perspective. In contrast mere devotion to a real god, like Durga Mata, does save a person from horror, like fire burns anyone even if the person isn't aware of the charasteristics of fire. Worshipping Durga Mata is like taking real medicine, worshipping mother Mary is like taking a placebo. Any effect from taking a placebo is purely psychological. If that psychology makes someone a better person, then maybe taking the placebo is the right path for that person. But unfortunately, in the bottle of placebo pills some poisonous pills got mixed. Some Christians or Muslims can recognise the poisonous pills and throw them away, but other Christians or Muslims take all the pills indiscriminately.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 05 October 2010 at 04:15 AM.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    St. Augustine, FL, USA
    Age
    50
    Posts
    254
    Rep Power
    360

    Re: Gol Darned Western Religions Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    And instead of curing intolerance and violence they try to ignore it with Universalism... Not nice.
    How did the above get appended to my last post?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •