Is Brahman God ? or Brahman + Maya combined is God ?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté kallol,

thank you for your post. IMHO i think my question to viprava is quite germane to the conversation at hand. If you ask if we should understand both ( alluding to māyā ) or just brahman?
That begs the question of discussing both and hence my question to viprava seems quite reasonable.

That is, if māyā cannot be seen by us, then it cannot be entertained as an idea and hence your question, 'understanding both or just brahman' cannot be addressed or answered properly.

In my earlier posts I have offered my position - really not my position ( as the originator ) but that of kaśmir śaivism. I mentioned,

Within śiva 36 tattva ( That-ness) is recognized. This explains sṛṣṭi - letting go, manifestation (~creation~) in its Fullness. This māyā is there also. In ignorance this māyā is a constraint. In clarity of mind and being possessed of the Self, this māyā is then the play and display of śakti.

This is why this is germane to the conversation: by understanding śiva , sṛṣṭi and the 36 tattva , māyā too is understood. It is not an accessory . This then addresses the question you have posed.

To advance the conversation just a bit more, as we are in uttara folder (and that is the nature of this folder to advance, expand) this māyā tends to be a big deal.
Many look to ādi śaṅkara's (some spell śaṃkara) and spend more time on this one area then on others. The enchantment with ~illusion~ as māyā for some reason seems attractive.
This is not the case in kaśmir śaivism.

Ādi śaṅkara-ji's knowledge and brillance regarding advatia ( not-two) is supurb and brings the Supreme to a level that it deserves. Yet the same wholeness, fullness of advitia
found in kaśmir śaivism looks at the same brilliance but with different facets . That is , māyiyamala as a limiting condition is both limiting and cosmic at the same time.

From within kaśmir śaivism, some could even call it īśvarādvaya darśana , no other principle other then śiva is needed as He is the whole of Reality, there is no second (adavya).
This is a key point as I see it to the overall conversation. To answer your question in a meaningful manner depends on which school (darśana) one chooses to respond from.

praṇām

[Ekanta]

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

Since God is understood to be personal and human in almost all religions, I think the right equation would be: God + mAyA = Brahman. Shankara's Advaita also says that Brahman first becomes Ishvara (SaguNa Brahman) and then merges with the mAyA-shakti born of himself and creates the world.

• There is a beautiful word for God in Tamizh, which is also the most popular one: kaDavuL; that is, kaDa--transcend + uL--be immanent inside, so kaDavuL is that which is transcendentally immanent; transcend also suggests infinite expansion.

• I think Viprava has a point to derive the term brahman from brah + man, where brah is to expand and man is mind. Let us also note that the Sanskrit term for a human being is manuShya, that is, man + uShya; man here means mind and uShya is from the root uSh, to burn, thus manuShya is an exact reference to the human who always has a mind 'burning' with thoughts and emotions. The wise use this capacity of the mind to burn in tapas--asterity/meditation, and enter the path of Atma-jnAnam.

• Thus, Brahman first acquired a man--mind, when he decided to brah--multiply/expand, with a view to know itself better. A human mind is a complex antaHkaraNa--inner organ, comprising the lower manas--mind, ahaMkAra--the I-sense, buddhi--intellect/wisdom part, prakRti/chitta--subtle matter colored with vAsanas, and puruSha--the transcendentally immanent Self. The Cosmic antaHkaraNa of Brahman, in the same way, comprises cosmic aggregations of these faculties.

• In the Shakti and mAyA thread, we discussed how scriptures view mAyA as an inherent part of parAshakti who is immanent in Brahman/Shiva. Since the shakti--power, of mind is to think without cessation, the mAyA-shakti (of Brahman's mind) creates the virtual reality of this world which entices the mind--and the man--into the advidyA--nescience, of associating his inner puruSha--Self, with its emanations.

• No wonder then that this universe is described, even by some scientists, to be a great cosmic thought or dream of God. The difference is that Brahman knows it as such, whereas we are yet to attain that knowledge.

• We are taught, right from our early life, to differentiate between the 'I' from the 'my/mine'. Thus, using the Self-inquiry of 'who am I' given by RamaNa MaharShi, one can intellectually know with ease, that the 'I' in us is really the Self that is Brahman.

• If we apply this teaching, then we can say that anything that Brahman emanates from himself, such as the world and mAyA-shakti, is not actually Brahman, but Brahman's. At length, however, since Brahman is prajnAnam--Cosmic Consciousness, it knows about and rejects its emanations (as neti-neti) at every point of its presence, which makes the samsAra--world process, go on. Brahman's individual selves--jIvas, however, only gradually and progressively become aware of this knowledge of I and mine--or rather Brahman and Brahman's,--which entails the guNa-karma existence of our individual selves and this world.

We align with our Self, every night, in suShupti--deep sleep. BrahmA, the creator has his own suShupti when the world gets merged in him. Brahman, in turn, has his own suShupti after the mahApraLaya, when all worlds and gods lie dormant and merged in him. Unlike Brahman and the Gods, however, only a minuscule number of jIvas have attained the state of turIya where the Self is known in conscious awareness.

[Onkara]

To advance the conversation just a bit more, as we are in uttara folder (and that is the nature of this folder to advance, expand) this māyā tends to be a big deal.
Many look to ādi śaṅkara's (some spell śaṃkara) and spend more time on this one area then on others. The enchantment with ~illusion~ as māyā for some reason seems attractive.
This is not the case in kaśmir śaivism.

Ādi śaṅkara-ji's knowledge and brillance regarding advatia ( not-two) is supurb and brings the Supreme to a level that it deserves. Yet the same wholeness, fullness of advitia
found in kaśmir śaivism looks at the same brilliance but with different facets . That is , māyiyamala as a limiting condition is both limiting and cosmic at the same time.

From within kaśmir śaivism, some could even call it īśvarādvaya darśana , no other principle other then śiva is needed as He is the whole of Reality, there is no second (adavya).
This is a key point as I see it to the overall conversation. To answer your question in a meaningful manner depends on which school (darśana) one chooses to respond from.

praṇām

Namasté Yajvan
This is good to read. mAyA can be overcome. That overcoming is marked by the knowing that "śiva... is the whole of Reality, there is no second (adavya)." Your good words

The reason that mAyA continues to arise and to be a big deal is its place in scriptures, which cannot be played down (not suggesting anyone here does). For this reason I feel Adi Sankara's position is founded, but does not limit further progress, as you point out. This is why I look to kaśmir śaivism for stimulation.

In my observation, Adi Shankara leads us up to that point of Self-realisation, using the wedge of the maya-concept to crack the shell of body-mind ignorance and expose the Self in all its glory. Nothing else is then needed, for the Truth is revealed.

For example of maya in scritpure:

Brihadaranyaka Up. II-v-19: ... Perceiving this the Rishi said, ‘(He) transformed Himself in accordance with each form; that form of His was for the sake of making Him known. The Lord on account of Maya (notions superimposed by ignorance) is perceived as manifold, for to Him are yoked ten organs, nay, hundreds of them. He is the organs; He is ten and thousands – many and infinite. That Brahman is without prior or posterior, without interior or exterior. This self, the perceiver of everything, is Brahman. This is the teaching.


Bhagavad Gita 7.14
daivi hy esa guna-mayi
mama maya duratyaya
mam eva ye prapadyante
mayam etam taranti te

This divine illusion of Mine
Is difficult to go beyond.
Only those devoted to Me
Shall pass beyond this illusion. (7.14)

[kallol]

The TRUTH is so apparent but still eludes most. How can we bring it down to the maases and that to in present day context without going through the nitty gritty of the scriptures ?

The initial interest and knowledge might propel many towards knowing Him more through the scriptures.

Let me put it as like this.

The endless brahmand is filled up with energy and consciousness.

Consciousness pervades all and is permanent and attributeless. It is the life enabler and the enabler of knowing. Without it there will be no life and no knowing.

The energy is in constant motion, constant changing (why ?). The knowing of the energy is because of the consciousnes. No consciousness leads to not enabling the energy, not knowing the energy.

It is like a dead man. With no life the man does not sense or do anything. For him nothing is there.

The consciousness is the enabler and the energy is the doer. This combination get manifested at different levels. But for all manifestations there is a consciousness part and an energy part. Without the first part the second part becomes useless and is consumed.

So we understand that the consciousness is the independent part and the energy is the dependent part. The second part's existence is out of the first part.

Now these first part and the second part are also called the higher nature and the lower nature. Again a different places in the scripture the higher nature is also called the Paraprakriti, Purusha, Chit or Brahman. The second part is aparaprakriti, prakriti, achit or maya.

As all manifestations will constitute the initial ingredients consciousness and energy, we can say the manifested energy is enabled by consciouness to become human, animals, trees / plants, etc. Slowly we will know that even the so called non living entities have these two ingredients.

It is like clay / gold. With clay/ gold, we make so many types of articles/ ornaments. Now however different the articles / ornaments will have the same cosntituents as the clay or gold. If the gold is 95% pure, the ornaments will be same. Again if the clay contains silicon and oxygen the articles will also have the same.

This leads to the fact that the highest supreme being also has the higher and the lower nature. We all have a part of that higher nature and a part of the lower nature.

There will be some questions coming out of this. We will take up on later posts

Love and best wishes

[saidevo]

namaste Kallol and others.

The TRUTH is so apparent but still eludes most. How can we bring it down to the maases and that to in present day context without going through the nitty gritty of the scriptures?

KRShNa ParamAtman in his Bhagavad GItA, brings out the relationship and differences between prakRti--matter/material energy, puruSha--jIva/individual soul and paramAtmA--Supreme Self thus:

kArya-kAraNa-karRtve hetuH prakRtiruchyate |
puruShaH sukha-duHkhAnAM bhoktRtve heturchyate ||13.21||

"With regard to the source of body and organs, prakRti--Nature is said to be the cause.
The individual soul--puruSha, is the cause so far as enjoyership of happiness and sorrow is concerned."

puruShaH prakRtistho hi bhungkte prakRtijAn-guNAn |
kAraNaM guNa-sanggo-&sya sad-asad-yoni janmasu ||13.22||

"Since the soul is seated in Nature, therefore it experiences the qualities born of Nature.
Contact with the qualities is the cause of its births in good and evil wombs."

upa-dRShTa-anumantA cha bhartA bhoktA maheshvaraH |
paramAtmeti cha-api-ukto dehe-asmin-puruShaH paraH ||13.23||

"He who is the Witness, the Permitter, the Sustainer, the Experiencer, the great Lord,
and who is also spoken of as the transcendental Self is the supreme Person in this body."

ya evaM vetti puruShaM prakRtiM cha guNauH saha |
sarvathA vartamAno&pi na sa bhUyo-&bhijAyate ||13.24||

"He who knows thus the Person and Nature along with the qualities
will not be born again, in whatever way he may live."

The above translations are from the Shankara-bhAShya presented in English by SvAmi GambhIrAnanda. The subtleties of the Sanskrit terms and their meanings that shrI KRShNa uses in the text are beautifully explained by Shankara in his BhAShya, which can be downloaded from:
http://www.archive.org/details/bhaga...with00maharich

*****

shrI KRShNa springs a surprise in the last verse:

"He who knows thus the Person and Nature along with the qualities
will not be born again, in whatever way he may live."

• Just the knowledge of the truths expounded in the three foregoing verses promises liberation! From the word api in 'sarvathA vartamAno&pi', Shankara says, that it is understood that it goes without saying that one who is firm in his own duty is not reborn.

• "Being firm in one's duty" is nothing but being true to one's svadharma. This means conscious selection of such life and occupation as suits the svadharma.

• What about the karmic balance in the previous births? Shankara, quoting various UpaniShads, answers this question thus: The Knowledge of the Self, and its Realization will, like a blazing fire, destroy all actions and karmic seeds no matter where and when they were picked up.

Shankara also quotes a verse from the MahAbhArata:

"As seeds burnt by fire do not germinate, so also the Self does not acquire another body due to evils that have been burnt by Knowledge (cf. Mbh. Va.199.107)".

• shrI KRShNa prescribes the paths of meditation, SAmKhya yoga, Karma yoga, and Bhakti yoga, in the following two verses, as alternative means (which are long-winded) only to those who cannot stick to their svadharma and dedicate its actions to Him.

[viprava]

Dear All,

Can one see the mind. can one describe the thoughts of mind.However one cannot ignore or claim that mind or no thoughts are present in the Brain. This unknow part of know and one with out form and one which we can feel form is maya and this maya is what is termed as sakthi and it associate with soul.

To explain in little modern thoughts, please look at below points.

1. Magnetic Force is Vishnu- he is responsible for field, attractive force and direction.
2. Particles is Lakshmi - this is material aspect of god and the vishnu binds the particles which in takes forms.

The lakshm and narayana does represent attractive force of particle in getting to forms from formless.

now taking one more steps down

3. Light is Soul or Siva and Heat is Sakthi. Light and heat cannot be separated, if you have light,then it will also have heat. and this soul and heat is the cause of action of mind or when the light and heat with in body is in with contact with field and particle the maya is felt by us and maya is seen by us.

4. From Field comes the direction, because field is one which has the force to move, then from field came the direction which represent bramha and direction is need for sound which is caused due to particles. In the sense, the water flow as per the direction laid by the land(bhumi-laksmi -particles) which we know as sarswathi and partner of bharama.

Now, looking at above equation, can anyone tell who is god - well it is not possible to pinpoint, you need all the above to see and feel bhraman hence bhraman was identified as sutiable word to represent all the gods.

These have been represent in purans many times. Rama is vishnu and hanuman is siva. Rama prays siva, the soul and hanuman soul prays Rama. It simple states the formless thanks form and form thanks formless. It is this whole relation is what is called bhraman, the reason, they all are responsible for direction of mind which results in action if living and non living forms, hence it is important to understand this difference, once this is understood it will be easy to understand why we have so many gods in our society and culture and when combined to one we called it as purushya as termed by vedas, the ones which one cannot measure and from one which every thing came up.

Well, we can go further deep and start looking at things and relate to the Veda and gods as stated and why veda acts as fundmentals and authority to know and understand the devas and bhraman.

Hopefully, the above explination helps us to understand in layman words.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté snip,

herein lies the pickle. For ādi śaṅkara-ji to help us discern real from unreal , the notion of pāramārthika ( Absolute) and vyāvahārika (relative) fields of existence are brought into the conversation. That is the notion of mithyā ( meaning to turn out to be false, incorrect) began to play a bigger role in explaining what is not real.

Hence many of those with a critical eye towards the darśana of advatia (not two) came to call the followers¹ as māyā-vādins. This term is a critical/disparaging term. It suggests more time is given to how brahman appears as differentiated ( the multitude of things) then to its robustness of being full/whole.

No doubt this is important to ferret out, but for some reason over time this has seemed to become more to the forefront , then the overall unity of brahman.

So, as I see it we live in the distinctions, in vyāvahārika¹ and this must be explained - enter māyā to explain this experience. So we are taught accordingly.
In śāntabrahmavāda ( another name for advaita vedānta) māyā is neither real or unreal ( this can be explained on a future post). In kaśmir śaivism the universe is perfectly real and māyā is the play and display of śakti. In ignorance this māyā is limiting and a nuisance (IMHO) . In liberation it is cinmayī.

The teacher (guru) is the first letter (a) ; the student (śiṣya) is the last letter (ha) ; knowledge is the meeting place (ṁ) ahaṁ
- instruction is the link.

praṇām

words

• vyāvahārika व्यावहारिक - relating to common life or practice or action ; the relative field
• Followers can be called brahmavādin-s or advaitavādin-s

[Onkara]

Namasté Yajvan
This is a sound explanation. What attracts me is the potential that śakti offers. There appears to be no requirement to reject the world and retire to the forest or cave until the body dies, but rather one's actions and life continues to be the play of śakti. This for me offers much more expansion and value. I may derail, friend Kallol's topic and original post by investigating this tangent further here, but wanted to acknowledge your points.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté snip,

Namasté Yajvan
There appears to be no requirement to reject the world and retire to the forest or cave until the body dies, but rather one's actions and life continues to be the play of śakti. This for me offers much more expansion and value.

Perhaps starting a new post will be prudent. For me the following from the vijñāna bhairava¹ is most delightful to consider:

… śaivī-mukhaṃ ichocyate || 20
śakti ( which is śaivī) is the mouth (mukhaṃ) or entrance ichocyate (it is explained , ucyate or explained)

This sūtra informs us śakti is the entrance…. but to what?

The 21st sūtra informs us completely¹.
yathālokena dīpasya kiraṇair-bhāskarasya ca |
jñāyate dig-vibhāgāadi tadvac chatyā śivaḥ priye ||21

Just as parts of space are known by the light of a lamp
or the rays of the sun, in the same way O Dear One
Śiva is known through Śakti.

praṇām
words and references

• Vijñāna Bhairava - the conversation between śakti and śiva. This is from the Rudrayāmala Tantra.
• Vijñāna is vi+jñāna: vi is to discern, distinction + jñāna is wisdom, knowledge.
• Bhairava - more in-depth explaination of bhairava can be found at this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...2&postcount=52