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Thread: Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

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    Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

    Is Jesus a confirmed “Advitin”?

    Upon reading the Bible one cannot help but notice that Jesus constantly spoke about “My Father”, “I and My Father”, which exemplify the fact that He was not Advaitin at all. In the manifest creation of the pure Advaita, Pure Dvaita Jesus Christ did not advocate or represent either of these as a whole truth. Therefore, statement that Jesus Christ represents Adviata is falsity.

    Technically speaking He showed oneness in Father, upon which Advaitins seem to always hang their hat on by using statement like “I and my Father are one”, which does not truly represent the essential nature of Jesus Christ. As can be seen from the statement “I and My Father are one” the plurality “are” is used to represent more than one being. Such distinctness was always maintained by Jesus while addressing the Father.

    Advita is only a perspective and cannot represent the whole truth. For example, it negates the idea of God out of us, when in fact; God is the infinite spirit who is both in us and out of us. If God were not in us there would be no sense of need; if God were not out of us, there would be no sense of worship. Their denial of “God out of us” has forced them to interpret worship to be inferior to meditation. The fact is, no where in the scripture will you find God favoring one over the other as a form of sacrifice. God does not prohibit from either form of sacrifice – worship or meditation.

    In the manifest creation of the matter, Jesus was, therefore, purest form of higher-self state. In that He came pure, He lived pure and He returned pure. Only in Jesus Christ will you see Him embody Advita and Dvaita. In His teaching you will see the entire spectrum of spiritual practices needed by man to complete his spiritual journey in the cycle of creation. Jesus, with all His knowledge of divinity showed us prayer as a mode of worship. He Himself worshipped the Father in communing with the Father, with Him as the subject and the Father as the object of prayer. Advaitins have a very stark view on this and they have, as a result, a stark path to follow.

    Blessings,


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    Re: Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

    alright, you convinced me. Where do i sign to become a 'christian'?

    </end of sarcasm>
    Last edited by satay; 10 November 2006 at 06:22 PM.
    satay

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    Light Re: Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

    When Jesus says ‘I am’ ...


    ego eimi ho on (I am that Being I am) = ahaM brahma asmi (I am [that] Brahman I am)

    ahaM brahmAsmi = I am ‘I am Brahman’ = I am ‘I am Being’ = I am ‘I be’ = I am ‘I exist’ = I am ‘I am’ = I truly AM!

    I am the every essence of ‘I am’ = I am Existence, itself = I am (I am) Brahman.

  4. #4

    Re: Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    When Jesus says ‘I am’ ...




    ego eimi ho on (I am that Being I am) = ahaM brahma asmi (I am [that] Brahman I am)

    ahaM brahmAsmi = I am ‘I am Brahman’ = I am ‘I am Being’ = I am ‘I be’ = I am ‘I exist’ = I am ‘I am’ = I truly AM!


    I am the every essence of ‘I am’ = I am Existence, itself = I am (I am) Brahman.
    Dear Sarabhanga:

    Your points are well taken. Why does Jesus repeatedly refer to “I am”? I would like to think that He was qualified enough to make such self-declaration because the consciousness in Him was truly “Christ consciousness” which is one with the “Cosmic Consciousness” of the Father. I do believe that Jesus is the prime example of the one who has not even an iota of “Prarabhda karma” because of His all-pervading “Christ Consciousness”, which always shines as “I am”.

    Therefore, when Jesus refers to “I am the healer”, “I am the bread of life”, “I am the door”, “I am. . . “ etc, I believe, He spoke not of the “I” of the ego-consciousness (for an ordinary person it is identified with body-ego consciousness) but divine consciousness. Moreover, the “I am“ proclaimed by Jesus is not confined by the physical or temporal scale and, more importantly, is not bound by any fate after death as in humans.

    While it can be said that many sages have attained divine consciousness, such a transformation has occurred in them only at their “Samadhi”. But in Jesus, the Christ was indwelling in His nature right from the beginning. Therefore, Jesus could proclaim, because of His ever transcendence state, “I say unto thee, arise and be healed” and not “Be healed by God’s power.”

    Coming back to our original discussion..

    While Jesus knew Himself to be of the same nature as Brahman (Advaita), yet, He was aware of the Father (Brahman), and therefore, aware of Himself as the Son (atman). This is an outstanding example to mankind that in the manifest creation, the singular awareness of both the unity (Advaita) and the duality (Dvaita) co-exist and is needed. Because, Advaita has become Dvaita in the manifest creation and, therefore, it is implicit that now Dvaita needs recognition of the Adviata to complete the journey. Therefore, Advaita and Dvaita co-exist which is what Jesus portrayed and also demonstrated the significance by praying so much. It is only in “Jesus the Christ” will you find a potent combination of the two existing as one awareness in Christ consciousness. Because of that nature He is the outstanding role model for human journey.

    Blessings,

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    Re: Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Their denial of “God out of us” has forced them to interpret worship to be inferior to meditation. The fact is, no where in the scripture will you find God favoring one over the other as a form of sacrifice. God does not prohibit from either form of sacrifice – worship or meditation.[/FONT]
    I guess your idea on meditation is incorrect. Meditation is fixing one's mind unceasingly on God with immense love.(snehapUrvam anudhyAnam) Worship is certainly inferior because mind cannot focus on God as much it does during meditation. External worship involves senses, which have to be finally overcome. Since God is beyond the senses, worship must ultimately give way to meditation to reveal things beyond senses. Deep Meditation is a form of worship where body is not involved, but only the mind/intellect complex operates.

    Worship purifies the mind and body, making it more fit for meditation. Both are very essential for all serious God seekers.They go hand in hand. Worship cannot still the mind - only in the depth of meditation with senses fully withdrawn can you attain the focussed concentration which reveals God. Meditation is not unique to Advaita or Jnana Yoga - they are essential to Karma yoga, bhakti yoga and prapannas. There is no vedanta without samAdhi - it is just bookish otherwise. samAdhi is the highest worship possible.

    Worship is be holy, see holy, hear holy, smell holy, read holy, think holy and feel holy
    Meditation is to think holy and be holy. Worship restricted only to the mind is called meditation. Mind(Atman strictly) is the only organ capable of seeing God, and senses have no final role. And all worship must end in meditation - true meditation is moksha.

    Lower Bhakti Yoga involves mainly external worship with some or no meditation.
    Lower Karma Yoga is 75%-25%
    Higher Karma Yoga is 50%-50% ( or 25-75)
    Jnana Yoga is 0-100
    Higher Bhakti Yoga is 0-100

    Hinduism spans all these. Christianity does not.
    Last edited by Sudarshan; 17 November 2006 at 04:22 AM.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Dear Sarabhanga:

    I do believe that Jesus is the prime example of the one who has not even an iota of “Prarabhda karma” because of His all-pervading “Christ Consciousness”, which always shines as “I am”.
    We can 'believe' a lot of things but without any facts any belief is an emotional addiction.

    Hindus fail to see what jesus has to offer that the sages of the east don't.
    satay

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    Re: Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    While it can be said that many sages have attained divine consciousness, such a transformation has occurred in them only at their “Samadhi”. But in Jesus, the Christ was indwelling in His nature right from the beginning.
    You are incorrect. There is atleast one Hindu saint I know who was "karuvile thiru" (enlightened in the womb). He is the Alvar saint Nammazhvar. He is called Satakopan because he defeated the Satam. Satam is the "air" that traps you in bhagavAn's mAyA during birth but it did not touch him. (Satakopan means one who was angry with Satam). Nammazhvar was in Samadhi since birth, even in waking state. There are bound to be many other Satakopan's....Jesus is nothing unique.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Upon reading the Bible one cannot help but notice that Jesus constantly spoke about “My Father”, “I and My Father”, which exemplify the fact that He was not Advaitin at all. In the manifest creation of the pure Advaita, Pure Dvaita Jesus Christ did not advocate or represent either of these as a whole truth. Therefore, statement that Jesus Christ represents Adviata is falsity.
    Indeed, "I" and "father" are different. Jesus cant be advaitin because he differentiated between himself and his father. Jesus cant be God because he did not say that - he said that he was the way to God. If he is not God, then he is a soul. That means, one among many infinite souls. ( and liberated)

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Technically speaking He showed oneness in Father, upon which Advaitins seem to always hang their hat on by using statement like “I and my Father are one”, which does not truly represent the essential nature of Jesus Christ. As can be seen from the statement “I and My Father are one” the plurality “are” is used to represent more than one being. Such distinctness was always maintained by Jesus while addressing the Father.
    Jesus appears to be a Vishistadvaitin because he said "I and my Father are one", where "I" is one with father, but still a difference persists to recognize the father.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Advita is only a perspective and cannot represent the whole truth. For example, it negates the idea of God out of us, when in fact; God is the infinite spirit who is both in us and out of us. If God were not in us there would be no sense of need; if God were not out of us, there would be no sense of worship. Their denial of “God out of us” has forced them to interpret worship to be inferior to meditation. The fact is, no where in the scripture will you find God favoring one over the other as a form of sacrifice. God does not prohibit from either form of sacrifice – worship or meditation.

    In the manifest creation of the matter, Jesus was, therefore, purest form of higher-self state. In that He came pure, He lived pure and He returned pure. Only in Jesus Christ will you see Him embody Advita and Dvaita. In His teaching you will see the entire spectrum of spiritual practices needed by man to complete his spiritual journey in the cycle of creation. Jesus, with all His knowledge of divinity showed us prayer as a mode of worship. He Himself worshipped the Father in communing with the Father, with Him as the subject and the Father as the object of prayer. Advaitins have a very stark view on this and they have, as a result, a stark path to follow.

    Blessings,

    [/SIZE][/FONT]
    Agree with you. Jesus was a blessed soul who incarnated to teach the message of his father Krishna. But let me repeat - Jesus was only one of the many blessed saints to have graced the world. And his teachings represent one face of the truth. No teacher ever taught the full truth ( otherwise all of us would not be fighting ) - because truth cannot be taught, but must be known by experience.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    Meditation is fixing one's mind unceasingly on God with immense love.(snehapUrvam anudhyAnam) Worship is certainly inferior because mind cannot focus on God as much it does during meditation. External worship involves senses, which have to be finally overcome. Since God is beyond the senses, worship must ultimately give way to meditation to reveal things beyond senses. Deep Meditation is a form of worship where body is not involved, but only the mind/intellect complex operates.
    My idea is that there are no such clear distinctions of quality between meditation and worship.

    Meditation is essentially the dying of the mind and the intellect (ahamkara). Only the buddhi remains as the ultimate tool of Self Realization and then merges with the Self in samadhi. To kill/still the mind, it should be given only a single thread of action (usually it is multi-threaded), which is why the recommendation of a form (rupa) or a name (nama) or a sound (mantra) in the initial stages of meditation. Once the concentration on singular thinking is achieved, the next stage automatically sets in, where the mind gives up even this singular thought and dies, as bliss (ananda) sets in. The status of bliss might just be monentary or a little longer (savikalpa samadhi). In a jnani, the status is eternal even when he is leading a normal life (nirvikalpa samadhi). The point is that it takes a very long time and constant, rigorous practice even to get into a moment of bliss with meditation.

    Now consider bhakti that is the prevalent mental activity in worship. Here also the mind is fixed on a form or name or sound initially. But the most wonderful thing about bhakti is that it is far easier to practice (which is why it is specially recommended for this Kali Yuga) and brings in bliss almost instantly once the bhakti gets intense! The sudden ringing of the priest's hand-bell in a temple, the pitch in his voice as he recites a mantra, the form of the murti, the jyoti of the lamp burning steadily beside it, the divine smell of incence and camphor -- anything can jolt the mind of a bhakta and kill/still it, albeit momentarily, resulting in a flood of bliss that externally manifests as tears in the bhakta's eyes welling up and flowing, the voice becoming choked and husky, every tiny hair in the body stirred and errect (romAnjanam) and a feeling of peace and love.

    The same sensations of bliss and peace are received in a bhajan, while reading a spiritual book or listening to an upanyAsam (a spiritual talk).

    Bhakti is in no way inferior to meditation, which is the reason Sri Adi Sankara sang several songs on our Gods and Goddesses, Ramana Maharshi used to accept vibuti and kunkuma prasadams from temples with utmost reverence and Sri Ramakrishna is revered as one of the most influential of the Hindu saints. And his disciple Sri Vivekananda combined all the three paths into a Raja Yoga.

    The Supreme Personality of Godhead advocated vehemently by the ISKCON and other bhakti movements as the Ultimate Truth or goal of liberation is not contradictory to advaita. Here we seek a saguna brahman instead of a nirguna brahman. They might talk about paramAtma and jivAtma but since Sri Krishna is essentially the be-all and end-all of the universe, these two atmic forms are essentially the same.

    Therefore, it seems to me that the three paths or the different philosophies are there to suit the different temperaments of souls in differing levels of spiritual progress towards the Ultimate Reality. There is no point in worrying about one being superior or inferior to the other. The only point is to choose one or more of them as may best suit a seeker.

    When you have a spiritual cocktail, why restrict yourself to a single rasa (juice)?
    Last edited by saidevo; 18 November 2006 at 12:02 AM.

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    Re: Is Jesus a confirmed Advaitin?

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    My idea is that there are no such clear distinctions of quality between meditation and worship.
    Yes, medtation is a form of worship where there is direct communion with the divine. But we cannot bring in emotional sentiments and say that the joy experienced in bhajan is the same as the one experienced in yogic samAdhi - in such case one might equate samsAra and moksha. Thus, there is distinction of quality between meditation and external worship of any kind. Ones spiritual journey begins with more religeous fervor than the inner meditation, but gradually progresses into one of identification of inner self with God in deep meditation. There will be tears of joy and ecstacy in the early stages due to outporing love, but these are gradually replaced with inner bliss and love. Deep meditation is the climax of such bliss and love, and qualitatively supercedes all other forms of worship. Of course, one should tread many small steps before reaching this point.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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