"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

[hanumansolo]

hanumansolo writes:
No. She was able to find peace with her situation and find happiness again by grace of a sincere and authentic Guru. Not perhaps the kind of miracle some people are looking for, but love and kindness can be a powerful medicine.

I just asked out of curiosity; the way you wrote the previous post, I really thought some sort of miracle had happened. So I asked merely to confirm it, that's all. I wasn't implying anything, much less attacking this particular saint or anyone else, for that matter. But to be fair, though, I wouldn't blame people if they had a skeptical view of 'saints' these days; there are way too many hard truths to be ignored.

[Maya3]

I've met her too and had a nice experience in my meditation afterwards.

She can't be a fake, no one who hugs people and gives to charity is a fake.
Really it's that simple.

Maya

[Harjas Kaur]

"So I asked merely to confirm it, that's all. I wasn't implying anything, much less attacking this particular saint or anyone else, for that matter. But to be fair, though, I wouldn't blame people if they had a skeptical view of 'saints' these days; there are way too many hard truths to be ignored."

Ahhh yes, "hard truths."

As a society we fail to become upset with hard facts of corruption in politics and business. Because people envy brutal corporate success and opulent wealth. But when it applies to "saints" we are skeptical even in the absence of evidence.

This is due to society's inherently atheistic nature and because this would require us to believe in tapas. And if we were to undergo even simplest austerities for spiritual purification purposes would have to give up our worldliness. So rather than that terrible consequence of SADHANA or spiritual self-discipline, the failure of every saint is just about assured according to popular opinion.

Amma makes no healing claims. So hard truths do not even apply to her.

Here's another perspective: Many read or hear something and then trash every Hindu leader. Some do fall down. And some are brought down by politically motivated rumor and no hard evidence at all. No one is trashing business and political leaders who exploit the poor and leave poisons in the ground water to cause cancers for generations. These companies reorganize and change their name and their stock prices soar as people rush to buy them to share in the immorally gained profits.

A young sannyasi has a fall down and is caught on video with a woman and for months it is a media sensation. Instead of being given a chance to be restored and recover, to mature and learn something, to grow and become wiser; or perhaps even for him to get married or retake vows, media and public would rather destroy him. And all the while claiming "hard truths" about ALL Hindu religious leaders. The sannyasi and sannyas itself becomes more condemnable to the public than the powerfully respected and murderous corporation.

THOSE are the real "hard truths."

[Sahasranama]

The word Hindu religious leader is deceptive. Hindus do not have a religious leader who is accepted commonly like the catholic pope. If people decide to follow a guru, that's a personal choice. It's not because the guru is the leader of the Hindus. When some sannyasi gets caught up in a sex tape, it has nothing to do with me as a Hindu. The media really likes to use this term "Hindu leader." Similarly when a guy like Rajan Zed has some problem with some silly thing, the media jumps on and says "Hindu leader is against sales of sacred idols." Hinduism is not like tibetan buddhism where a new leader is chosen whenever the old one dies. A guru is really a personal affair. The only jagadguru is paramatma, krishnam vande jagadgurum.

In reality though people do profile themselves as avatars and jagadgurus or their shishyas do so, but the gurus don't object. If their conduct will fall, it's warranted that these people do get more media attention. High winds blows on high hills. Yuddhisthira in the Mahabharata punished the vaishya more severely than the shudra, the kshatriya more severely than the vaishya and the brahmana more severely than the kshatriya, all for the same crime. With great power comes great responsibility. The attitude in India in modern times is to close your eyes when the guru falls and pretend it never happened. As long as they have not commited a crime, the gurus don't have to be punished, but disciples and followers have a right to know what kind of hypocritcal activities the people they think are God incarnate are involved in. Satyameva jayate nanritam.

[Eastern Mind]

Rajan Zed

Vannakkam: Have you noticed? His press releases now state 'Hindu scholar', not the former 'Hindu statesman'.... wondering why in a trivial way, not that I care.

I think this is a bit better because the public might see him as 'one of' rather than 'the spokesperson'. I don't know really.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

I hadn't noticed, a few weeks ago I read another article with Rajan Zed as a Hindu leader:

http://cplash.com/post/Hindu-leader-...layboy470.html

[hanumansolo]

[COLOR=DarkRed][COLOR=Black]Ahhh yes, "hard truths."

As a society we fail to become upset with hard facts of corruption in politics and business. Because people envy brutal corporate success and opulent wealth. But when it applies to "saints" we are skeptical even in the absence of evidence.

You're right. Maybe, that's because people do not expect anything better from politicians and businessmen; their field is corrupt, so it's not surprising that people in such fields are also corrupt. But in religion, saints make claims of purity and renunciation, so people set higher standards for them and expect too much. And when the saints fail to maintain such standards, people are disappointed. Can't say I blame them.

This is due to society's inherently atheistic nature and because this would require us to believe in tapas. And if we were to undergo even simplest austerities for spiritual purification purposes would have to give up our worldliness. So rather than that terrible consequence of SADHANA or spiritual self-discipline, the failure of every saint is just about assured according to popular opinion.

I think the problem is lack of Nehruvian secularism: there is too much religion in politics and too much politics in religion. That's why both fields have now become corrupt.

[satay]

namaste,

The attitude in India in modern times is to close your eyes when the guru falls and pretend it never happened.

To the contrary, the attitude in India media is to 'expose' any and every hindu leader for months on end even if there is no evidence. It gets higher ratings I suppose. Look even we are talking about it on HDF!

[Sahasranama]

I won't post too much about this, but as an example, look at this documentary and there are a enough instances of government people and devotees closing their eyes for the evil.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0320034777862#

[Harjas Kaur]

The attitude in India in modern times is to close your eyes when the guru falls and pretend it never happened. As long as they have not commited a crime, the gurus don't have to be punished, but disciples and followers have a right to know what kind of hypocritcal activities the people they think are God incarnate are involved in.

te ca hy arvāktanayā nija-loka-yātrayāndha-
paramparayāśvastās tamasy andhe svayam eva prapatiṣyanti

Low-class people, due to their gross ignorance, introduce a
system of religion that deviates from the Vedic principles.
Following their own mental concoctions, they automatically
fall down into the darkest regions of existence.

ayam avatāro rajasopapluta-kaivalyopaśikṣaṇārthah

In this age of Kali, people are overwhelmed by the modes of
passion and ignorance. Lord Ṛṣabhadeva incarnated Himself to
deliver them from the clutches of māyā.
~Srimad Bhagavatam 5.6.11,12

The nature of an avatar is just poorly understood. Even if a person actually might be "the God incarnate" it should be understood these would be only partial ansa avatars and therefore expected to have some degrees of limitation. Purna avatars are extremely rare and already described and predicted in the scriptures. Yet the common definition is so-and-so Perfected Master is God Himself. And this is just misunderstanding the nature of avtaray as well as nature of Guru.

tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ
kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye
ceta etair anāviddhaḿ
sthitaḿ sattve prasīdati

As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart,
the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as
lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the
devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely
happy. ~Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.19

What is the goal and end result of Guru-chela relationship? To develop "loving service." Even if the Guru proves to be a fraud, a rogue and a scoundrel, the loving service to the Divine Principle in him will still accrue merit for the sincere devotee. Although the resulting loss of shraddha will also cause problems for the devotee, he should never think that his service was for the scoundrel, rather should understand that all sincerity given is received as gift by Lord Krishna Himself.

apane acare keha, na kare pracara
pracara karena keha, na karena acara
'acara' 'pracara' namera karaha 'dui' karya
tumi sarva-guru, tumi jagatera arya

Some practice but do not preach, others preach but do not
practice, but one who is perfect in both preaching and practice
is the guru of the entire universe. You are a real jagad-guru, for
you practice what you preach.
~Cc. Antya 4.102,103

I think what is at fault here are our ideas about perfection. The spiritual life is all about the process of becoming purified and even the Guru is not exempt from living up to spiritual principles. When a Guru has a fall down he loses his position but he should have the opportunity to beg forgiveness of the sangat and be restored to spiritual association. this is not the same as being restored to position of Guru. He can still become a great servant of the acharya and the Lord, but obviously such a person will have proven to be without qualification for Guru tattva.

apani achari bhakti sikhamu sabare

I will teach bhakti to everybody by following all the
principles myself.

apani no kaile dharma sikhdna na jay

Unless one observes the principles of religion himself
it is not possible to teach others.
~Chaitanya Charitamkrita, Adi - 3.20,21

The ultimate Guru is Shri Krishna (not intending to sound sectarian, people can view this from different perspective as Absolute Lord, Shiva, Bhavani, etc as they best appreciate.) So if the ultimate Guru really IS God, then the dedhari (human form) Guru who falls down is not the ultimate. He may have been linked for a time with the ultimate or even complete fake. But the sincere chela always belongs to the Absolute Lord and not to any scoundrel. Any bad karma of a pretender is his own.

The scriptures say that the Guru is nondifferent from God not to deny humanity of the dedhari Guru, but to help our worship and submission of our own egotism. We approach God according to the degree of shraddha we have in the Guru's teachings. Even an imperfect Guru has some graces. If a chela unknowingly follows a fake guru he can still become perfected by the purity of his devotion to spiritual principles. Guru bhakti is always bhakti of Shri Krishna. (or whatever Name people understand as the Absolute Divine.)



You are right about "Hindu religious leaders." I used that term because it encompasses more than Guru's in the shastric sense and includes sannyasins, monks, sadhus, yoga masters, tantric adepts, pujaris, etc and many non-traditional unqualified persons who assume public role of "Guru."

The whole point is that a sinner can become a saint and someone who has a fall down can be restored to spiritual association. This is the grace of our Dharma. It is not that such evils should ever be denied or ignored.

Even if someone has a level of spiritual enlightenment, and there are varying degrees, that person can still have a fall down if he doesn't abide by the spiritual principles. Crimes of course should be handled by law and jail sentence is sometimes deserved.

"There is only one guru, the adi-guru, the original preceptor, Bhagavan Sri Krishna, who, as Sri Guru, is assuming different forms. One does not become guru because he wants to be one, because others push him to be one, or because of popular vote. Krishna decides who can represent Him, and not anyone else. The guru is ideally a svarupa-shakti pusta parikara, an eternal associate of the Lord. He is invested and imbued with the Lord’s delegation of guru-shakti. Svarupa means oneself. Krishna invests himself in the proper person. Srila Prabhupada says that the guru is not the body of the guru, but the guru is the principle embodied in the spiritual master." http://backtobhakti.com/2010/04/sri-guru-tattva-part-i/

*Acknowledgment, most of these quotes have been taken from brilliant article called Sri Guru Tattva by Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Goswami Maharaja. http://bvml.org/SBVPGM/sgt.html