Hallelujah Hindus!

[Sahasranama]

Who'll be singing carols and reading the Nativity story on Christmas Eve this year? Many American Hindus.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hind...For-Jesus.aspx

[Eastern Mind]

Who'll be singing carols and reading the Nativity story on Christmas Eve this year? Many American Hindus.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hind...For-Jesus.aspx

Vannakkam Sahasranama: It would be interesting to me to see the statistics involving the % of Hindus here in America (and Canada somewhat) who are directly involved with Vedanta Societies that do this. The word 'many' could me misleading as I think it suggests 'a significant percentage'. Here in my town the local Vedanta Society consists of about 4 families. I'm not sure about elsewhere. Certainly many Hindus don't celebrate Christmas at all. It's not done in any way at the temple I go to.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

Vannakkam Sahasranama: It would be interesting to me to see the statistics involving the % of Hindus here in America (and Canada somewhat) who are directly involved with Vedanta Societies that do this. The word 'many' could me misleading as I think it suggests 'a significant percentage'. Here in my town the local Vedanta Society consists of about 4 families. I'm not sure about elsewhere. Certainly many Hindus don't celebrate Christmas at all. It's not done in any way at the temple I go to.

Aum Namasivaya

Probably the percentage of Hindus isn't that large, but there will still be many. This article is describing a new trend among Hindus, yogis and vedantins.

I have no problem if people want to pray to Jesus, but they should refrain from redefining existing religions according to there own standards. There are two problems here.

1) Universalists take the right to redefine Christianity. In their words, the Christian religious rituals are called Churchianity, while the Universalist practice is real Christianity. This is the objection a Christian could make.

2) Universalists also take the right to redifine yoga and vedanta. This is not described in the article, but universalist will often say that Hinduism is full of dogma and that yoga and vedanta belong to people from all religions, even claim that these are pre-Hindu, pre-Vedic or pre-Brahmanic practices which were spread all over the globe in ancient times. They will also bring Christian morals, like suffering to Hinduism. This are the objections a Hindu could make.

I thought it was interesting to read about the problems of Universalism from the perspective of Christianity and see that their problems with the universalist mentality are similar to ours.

[NetiNeti]

Probably the percentage of Hindus isn't that large, but there will still be many. This article is describing a new trend among Hindus, yogis and vedantins.

I have no problem if people want to pray to Jesus, but they should refrain from redefining existing religions according to there own standards. There are two problems here.

1) Universalists take the right to redefine Christianity. In their words, the Christian religious rituals are called Churchianity, while the Universalist practice is real Christianity. This is the objection a Christian could make.

2) Universalists also take the right to redifine yoga and vedanta. This is not described in the article, but universalist will often say that Hinduism is full of dogma and that yoga and vedanta belong to people from all religions, even claim that these are pre-Hindu, pre-Vedic or pre-Brahmanic practices which were spread all over the globe in ancient times. They will also bring Christian morals, like suffering to Hinduism. This are the objections a Hindu could make.

I thought it was interesting to read about the problems of Universalism from the perspective of Christianity and see that there problems with the universalist mentality are similar to ours.

I do not attempt to redefine Christianity, I simply look at the good contained within the faith and make sure to give it credit and reverence.

Universalism seems to get a lot of flack here on the forum. As a student of Vedanta I simply see Universalism as an aspect of non-dualism. Since all is Brahma then all is within Brahma and all is created by Brahma. No aspect of the universe is with out his authorship. Who am I to Judge other faiths that may be as valid as mine? My master dabbled in all faiths and saw not that they were equal but that they lead to the same place. Do I believe our Dharma to be the best and most fulfilling path? Yes. Is it the only path? I believe not.

This thread also seems to issue a distaste for the Ramakrishna order. It seems like there is some equation that combines universalism with western Hindus. My master, who teaches of universalism, was fully Indian and trained by Totipuri, who was a initiate of Dashanami Sampradaya, the direct lineage of Adi Shankara.

Universalism is truly just the acknowledgment that all is equally an illusion and the only truth is Brahma.

[NayaSurya]

Though perhaps others here would be issuing such a call, I would like to say, for at least my part this:

I know all is Shiva...there is no doubt about this. But, some beings, be they Christian, Hindu, Jew, Atheist are undoubtably sleeping.

They muck around this world making money, raising a family and maybe going to their secular church. They look to their left and watch what the man sitting next to him puts into the donation tray and adds that plus 5$.

They get a new car every single year, despite the previous one being perfectly fine...and they come to my door with a musty basket filled with Chick Flicks and try to get me to their church. A family with 8 kids is like gold to them. In one act of "kindness" they could draw in a family which would fill the church in just a few years time. They hunt large animals and gut them open upon the hood of their car displaying them proudly. Then park that car in front of my car filled with my little children.

They are sleeping. Not aware at all. Just as those children I spoke of yesterday. I know them, I live with them...I greet them every afternoon as I wait for my children to come off the handicapped bus.

There's nothing to judge here, how can you judge one who has just begun? The problem is there are certain factors within the christian church that see India and Hinduism as a very ripe place for conversion. They begin with adding Jesus to the list of dieties and then pretty soon...he's the only one left.

If you go to the christian sites online they have whole segments of tutorials on how to convert certain religions. When I was researching cultures I found a site dedicated to converting Aboriginal people of Australia with christian hymns translated into their native tongues.

So folks are nervous when you begin adding jesus to a list of Beings which hold the truth nestled in their loving Beloved Arms.

All is Shiva, but one would have to admit that some things are very much blindfolded to this fact, as we once were. Things that can harm us due to this confusion.

Let me put this in the only way I know how...in terms of my own experience.

It's fall time here right now and the bees...they are very confused. They swarm and get angry very quickly. See, they are ready to die...or hybernate depending on their type and age...and they are dangerous.

One time my children were playing train on a large aluminum ladder and an entire nest of bees swarmed them.

The bees are not lesser beings, not evil, nor stupid...or bad. But, they are confused and they can hurt you, if not given a wide berth.

I think mostly this is why folks want to give other religions a wide berth. Especially those known to cause harm.

I truly wish no ill feelings towards any guru and beliefs. Ultimately I do very much agree with you and I try very hard to be compasionate to every living being.

Lastnight I had a dream. There were snakes everywhere...all over everything. One put it's head on my foot. It was a rainbow serpent that shimmered beautifully with a aqua blue shimmer. It had hundreds of razor sharp fangs in its mouth and I went to pick it up and it moved it's head towards me. I became scared so I yanked at it and it bit me very gently.

So I angriliy grabbed its head and moved its own body into its field of striking. It bit itself. But, this bite hurt me horribly, worse than even the first bite...it hurt me so bad it caused my heart to have an episode and I woke up screaming.

For to hurt myself is one thing...but to hurt another hurts me a thousand times worse.

I believe this is a lesson of a lifetime. Even the most dangerous of creatures should be given compassion and a very wide berth.

[NayaSurya]

I suppose it's probably very evident that I spent a portion of this lifetime sleeping.

[Eastern Mind]

Universalism seems to get a lot of flack here on the forum.

Vannakkam NetiNeti: This may be true, but what are the reasons? For me personally, it is because of the confusion it causes. Not so much for adults who can see from some sort of higher advaitic level, and practice at the same time, but for the learners, the children.

Example: Family is on the way to temple.

Son: Appa, if all religions are the same, as you say, why do we have to drive 20 miles across town to be at the temple? Why can't we just go to the church across the street from home? I noticed a nice looking building closer too. I think its called a mosque. Why can't we go there? It's closer. I won't get so tired.

What would you say to him?

Which is it, heaven/hell, or reincarnation? Were animals put on the planet for us to eat like the Christians say, or is it ahimsa?

What do we say? Son, its up to you to decide?

I just think it is far less confusing to follow a path, a sampradaya. Kids are too smart and are able to figure things out so quickly. They cognize unclear thinking much faster than anyone might think. Then what happens? They go off into wanderland and begin to think religion of all sorts is just stupid.

Aum Namasivaya

[NetiNeti]

Vannakkam NetiNeti: This may be true, but what are the reasons? For me personally, it is because of the confusion it causes. Not so much for adults who can see from some sort of higher advaitic level, and practice at the same time, but for the learners, the children.

Example: Family is on the way to temple.

Son: Appa, if all religions are the same, as you say, why do we have to drive 20 miles across town to be at the temple. Why can't we just go to the church across the street from home. I noticed a nice looking building closer too. I think its called a mosque. Why can't we go there? It's closer. I won't get so tired.

What would you say to him?

Which is it, heaven/hell, or reincarnation? Were animals put on the planet for us to eat like the Christians say, or is it ahimsa?

What do we say? Son, its up to you to decide?

I just think it is far less confusing to follow a path, a sampradaya. Kids are too smart and are able to figure things out so quickly. They cognize unclear thinking much faster than anyone might think. Then what happens? They go off into wanderland and begin to think religion of all sorts is just stupid.

Aum Namasivaya

You are right in that it is a confusing concept, but when it is finally understood it becomes a beautiful concept. Approaching the universal aspect of Vedanta is a more advanced theory but is key to the philosophy. Hinduism is, in my opinion, the greatest form of spiritual practice on the planet. But, as the Rig Veda says "Reality is one; Sages call it by different names". This illustrates that their are different paths. They may not be equal but they are valid. Vivekananda says that one is led from truth to truth, more specifically lower truth to higher truth. Our Dharma is the higher truth but not the only one. Ramakrishna says that those who practice other faiths with sincerity and love will enter the Mansion of Brahma-but it may be through the backdoor.

A child or newcomer should stick to the worship of their Ishta-Deva and study of the scriptures. Vedatin Philosophy comes later. One must be steadfast in the Dharma to begin to study advanced concepts, it is like a high school science class delving into cosmological metaphysics. How can one study a black hole when they do not know of space?

I'm not saying Hindus should worship Jesus or revere the Koran. I'm not even saying one should spend a second upon them if they do not want to. All I am saying is that one should not hate Christians or Muslims because they are filled with the same Atman as us. Some of them are very good people, good enough to please Brahma and therefore should not be judged.

Christians are made by the same God as me. They eat meat and I do not. Once again, I follow a higher truth, I am not Christian, I am Hindu. There are vegetarian Christians and they follow a higher truth than the carnivorous ones. There are flesh eating Hindus. They believe in the same things I do and therefore are not "wrong", but they are not as advanced as a vegetarian.

Some people say that by accepting universalism, one becomes less Hindu. I do not believe this to be true.

[Sahasranama]

Yes, confusion is the problem.

*The vedas say, ekam sad, truth is one.

*The bible says, there is one god and one way to reach him.

Universalist will interpret both sayings as having the same meaning. But this neglects the fact that the Christian who wrote down his statement in the bible and all the subsequent Christians who followed those words, had a completely different idea in mind then what is meant in the vedas.

Through the study of the bible and Christianity it's easy to conclude that it doesn't teach the same concepts and principles as the vedas. We do not have the right to tell the Christians what you are teaching is not really Christianity, you are misinterpretating the bible. The same thing holds true for Christians or Universalist who try to impose Christian values on the words of the vedas and upanishads. It is possible that Christianity, with all its flaws, inspires someone to become a better person. We should not deny that. Atheism, humanism, socialism, feminism are all philosophies that can inspire someone to become a better person, to perform better karmas. That doesn't make those philosophies part of Hinduism.

What the Hindu scriptures teach is that yes, we are all worshipping the same truth, but the other religions are doing it by the wrong method. They will not reach the ultimate, but they will reach whatever they are worshipping. This means that they might reach the world of ghosts or be born again as a Christian, because Christianity was on their mind. Whatever is on your mind at the moment of your last breath will determine your next birth. These are the teachings off the Bhagavad Gita. Some might say, they will be born again as Hindus. No, not if they do not have the merits to be born as Hindu nor if they remembered Jesus before they died. Eventually, they will be born as Hindus, but don't be suprised if a devout and pious Christian has to go through 640.000 lifeforms, before being born as a human being again. Hindu swamis who chant church songs in temples are also at risk to for being born again as a Christian. Because of their prarabhda karma, they may become Hindu again very soon, svalpamapyasya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayaat, but you can see that accepting Christ is only a hinderance in the path of a Hindu.

Someone might say, what is the harm in letting Christian doctrines and Christian saints and mesiah enter Hinduism? All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. There is one reason when worshipping Jesus as an avatara wouldn't cause any confliction, that is if you believe the Hindu gods are fictional characters. If that's what you believe, then adding more fictional characters to the pantheon is no big deal. Some people may interpret the gods in that way, but this is not what the Hindu scriptures teach. This is also not the vedanta of Shankara, Ramanuja or other acharyas. Universalist will say that Hinduism is a syncretic religion that has added god upon god, concept upon concept from culture upon culture to result in what is now known as Hinduism. This view is unacceptable for anyone who takes Hindu Dharma seriously. Hinduism has been revealed integrally by our rishis, not fragmentally. Confusion arises, because darshana shastras or philosophy zooms in and specialises in on one of the aspects of Hinduism, but what is forgotten is that this ascept that is studied in the darshanas was already an integral part of Hinduism. This is evident from our scriptures like the Vedas, puranas and the itihasas. Yes, if you already believe that the Hindu Gods are man made lullabies to put us to sleep at night, then you can add Jesus to the pantheon. Otherwise, there's an incongruency.

I'm not saying Hindus should worship Jesus or revere the Koran. I'm not even saying one should spend a second upon them if they do not want to. All I am saying is that one should not hate Christians or Muslims because they are filled with the same Atman as us. Some of them are very good people, good enough to please Brahma and therefore should not be judged.

Yes, absolutely. We should not hate on Christians, they are atmans indeed. The point though is that we also do not have to mingle Christianity with Hinduism to please the Christians. We do not hate them nor do we please them. They have the freedom to believe in their religion and we have no right to deny that, but we have to protect our veda dharma very carefully against Christian influences.

[sm78]

I do not attempt to redefine Christianity, I simply look at the good contained within the faith and make sure to give it credit and reverence.

To what end and purpose?

As a student of Vedanta I simply see Universalism as an aspect of non-dualism. Since all is Brahma then all is within Brahma and all is created by Brahma. No aspect of the universe is with out his authorship.

Non-dualism may be viewed as speculations into the ultimate nature of reality by agnostics or direct expereinces into the "absolute" nature consciousness by believers. In one case, it is just a theory and in the later, an experience to be sought in samadhi. But in neither case it is a radical generalization about the society or the problems of this world.

Universalism on the other hand is precisely a radical generalization of reality, more precisely its religions. It may be a desparate attempt to superimpose the theory non-duality into the harsh realities of the world, for the gap may seem to big to have a peaceful conscience.

These are usual problems with partial dogmas and radical ideologies. They fail to explain the many faced, irreducibly complex and beautiful world we live in, and in retaliation we make every endevour to reshape the world according to our dogmas. How egoistic of the puny human to dictate nature according to his whimses! It is exactly this, whether it is Islamic Jehad to establish the barbaric sharia accross the world, or universalist zeal to see equals or goods in every religion.

A true non-dualists will accept the evil when he sees good in the world, as one cannot exist without the other, and make efforts to go past either of these qualities into the direct non-dual experience in samadhi.

Acknowledging the good but ignoring to recognize the existence of evil is simply dumb. Evil will not go away, if you** like good too much, nature precisely throw evil in your face, to wake you up from this delusion of duality! But if in a tamasic state you just continue to hypnotise yourself with universalist dogma, deny the existence of evil and just want to see the good in everything because you feel vulnerable and unsure of your beliefs and dogmas and yourself in the face of harsh reality - then well you have precisely missed the boat of the famed non-duality and its direct experience.
**you refers to a generic universalist

Who am I to Judge other faiths that may be as valid as mine? My master dabbled in all faiths and saw not that they were equal but that they lead to the same place. Do I believe our Dharma to be the best and most fulfilling path? Yes. Is it the only path? I believe not.

And this type of meaningless blabber gets me worked up.

Are people here judging religions out of a vocation? Do you think its because we derive great pleasure and enlightenment out of judging other religions? Or could it is because we see a threat, not to our own bodies (which I know will be the only occation when an universalist might get up from his/her ass), but to our society, culture and right now to entire humanity? I think none who find it necessary to be critical of Islamofascism or the catholic horror shows, do it from an internal need to judge others. Followers of any true spirituality (not external decorum) possibly cannot share this trait of the desert god and his followers.

This thread also seems to issue a distaste for the Ramakrishna order. It seems like there is some equation that combines universalism with western Hindus. My master, who teaches of universalism, was fully Indian and trained by Totipuri, who was a initiate of Dashanami Sampradaya, the direct lineage of Adi Shankara.

No no, universalism has had both Indian and western promoters. Its far from completely western, though western idealism may have an impact. Some of us are not afraid to point out wrong doings of certain historical personalities who now become demi-gods or even gods to the masses. This forum has witnessed the amount of hate it sometimes draws from the non hating universalists.

Universalism is truly just the acknowledgment that all is equally an illusion and the only truth is Brahma.

No its just a radical generalization, a desparate superimposition of a theory which is not yet in the experience of these souls (and will never be, sorry), on to this beautiful world.

An attempt to reshape the world (aliebit more doctrinally) much like the Jehadi barbarians.