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Thread: Hint of Eternal Damnation?

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    Hint of Eternal Damnation?

    asurim yonim apanna
    mudha janmani janmani
    mam aprapyaiva kaunteya
    tato yanty adhamam gatim

    Attaining Repested birth amongst the species of demonic life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abomidable type of existence.

    According to many followers of Madhva, this verse (16:20) from the Bhagavad-Gita gives hints to Eternal Damnation. I would say that this verse just means that Demonic persons cant come to God because you must first stop sinful activity before you can approach God.

    Are there other Hindu's who believe that this Krsna is really refering to an Eternal Damnation? To me, Krsna is perfectly and infinitly mercyfull and that any Eternal Damnation is not possible. Krsna also says in the Gita:
    nehabhikrama-naso 'sti
    pratyavayo na vidyate
    svalpam apy asya dharmasya
    trayate mahato bhayat

    In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.
    I believe that all of us have some type of spiritual advancement, no matter how low, and because of that, eternal damnation is not possible.

    May I have other opinions?
    sarva-dharman parityajya
    mam ekam saranam vraja
    aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
    moksayisyami ma sucah

    Hare Krsna!

  2. #2

    Re: Hint of Eternal Damnation?

    Namaste Gopal Dasa

    The vers 16:20 speaks about deluded people who fall lower and lower.
    Because they are deluded they: verily (eva) not attain (aprāpya) Me (mām).
    It is as eternal as the jiva is deluded


    2.40 is a nice vers. I read it like this :

    It peaks about buddhi-yoga
    Before doing any actions we should consult our discrimination (buddhi) to find out if it is right or wrong. If we do this and act accordingly our actions will not be harmful and the effort will not be wasted, i.e. it will give good result. It protects from fear since we adhere to righteousness (dharmasya). This can be easily checked since we have a conscience! This is a great path for kali-yuga, since we are tempted all the time. I would go so far as to say its the very foundation! Loving Krishna and acting according to dharma is the same thing.
    There is a Guru in each of us. It is the Atma principle. It is the Eternal Witness functioning as Conscience in everyone. With this Conscience as guide, let all actions be done. (sss20-15)

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    Re: Hint of Eternal Damnation?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    One cannot read śloka 16:20 without considering 16:19. Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us what happens to those that are narādhamān.
    Narādhamān = nara+ adha +mān ; nara = man or humans + adha = not possessing virtue + mān = honor and respect .
    Hence narādhamān are those humans devoid/not possessing virtue, honor or repect. It is they who are cast into material existence again and again based upon their repeated choices.
    It is they who have the greatest difficulty of approaching the Supreme, as they are mindless to this level of Being and think the 'world' as they see it is all that there is.

    This is the greatest level of moha ( delusion). Not knowing what you don't know. This is a burden for some humans.
    Svāmī lakṣman-ju says it this way: Its not so much what you don't know, but what you do know that is just not right.

    So, now what to do? All hope is lost for the human that took a wrong turn? We must go back to chapter 4 and the 36th śloka.
    Kṛṣṇa-ji tells us, even if you were the most sinful of all sinners, you would cross over all evil by the raft of knowledge alone.

    Nothing is so purifying as knowledge ... bhāgavad gītā chapter 4 , 38th śloka.

    I found, and continue to find this to be true.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4

    Re: Hint of Eternal Damnation?

    A Yajvan... what would we do without you?
    Im just greatful you are here!
    There is a Guru in each of us. It is the Atma principle. It is the Eternal Witness functioning as Conscience in everyone. With this Conscience as guide, let all actions be done. (sss20-15)

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    Re: Hint of Eternal Damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    One cannot read śloka 16:20 without considering 16:19. Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us what happens to those that are narādhamān.
    Narādhamān = nara+ adha +mān ; nara = man or humans + adha = not possessing virtue + mān = honor and respect .
    Namaste yajvan, isn't the assigned meaning to the syllable mān a little subjective? Most commentators translate naradhaman as lowest of man, nara + adhama in plurar and accusative, right? Madhvacharya was the only one who interpretated this as a class of beings who are eternally doomed.

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    Re: Hint of Eternal Damnation?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté Sahasranama

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    Namaste yajvan, isn't the assigned meaning to the syllable mān a little subjective? Most commentators translate naradhaman as lowest of man, nara + adhama in plurar and accusative, right? Madhvacharya was the only one who interpretated this as a class of beings who are eternally doomed.
    A valid & reasonable point.

    narādhama नराधम (masculine gender) is defined as a low or vile man , a wretch.
    Where does man come from? The word nara. This adhama = lowest , vilest , worst , very low or vile or bad , and with this we can
    see the definition.

    Yet when the word is offered as narādhamān = nara+ adha +mān ; nara = man or humans + adha = not possessing virtue
    + mān = honor and respect , it pushed me to to review the word a bit differently.

    At the end of the day it seems possible that one 'not possessing virtue, honor or respect' can easily co-mingle in the definition of
    a 'low or vile man'. Yet no matter... if one took a look at mān - to honour , respect ,
    then clicked to ( 4th derivative) you find a definition of poison.

    So, pending one's frame of mind and the desire to dig into the words at hand we can come to vile ( through ),
    Yet for me and my orientation I prefer nara+ adha +mān coming from the Lord's mouth.

    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 24 December 2010 at 04:29 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Hint of Eternal Damnation?

    I've thought about this verse before. God seems to leave evil people to their own devices by continuously leaving them to be born as asuras. However, I'm also aware of a teaching (I'm not sure what Scripture it comes from) which states that anyone who dies directly at the hands of God achieves moksha instantly. I suppose that one such example would be Ravana, who was killed by Sri Rama.

    Does anyone else know of this teaching, and where it comes from?

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    Re: Hint of Eternal Damnation?

    I've thought about this verse before. God seems to leave evil people to their own devices by continuously leaving them to be born as asuras. However, I'm also aware of a teaching (I'm not sure what Scripture it comes from) which states that anyone who dies directly at the hands of God achieves moksha instantly. I suppose that one such example would be Ravana, who was killed by Sri Rama.

    Does anyone else know of this teaching, and where it comes from?
    This is correct, it's mentioned in various sources that one who dies from the hands of god will attain mukti. Ravana did not attain mukti directly, because he was cursed by the kumaras to take birth on earth three times. In his previous life he was Hiranyaksha and in his next life he was Shishupala. Even asuras can have bhakti for Bhagavan, like Kansa, he never thought of anyone else than Krishna, although it was in a state of fear and anger. This is the ISCKON translation:


    anta-kale ca mam eva
    smaran muktva kalevaram
    yah prayati sa mad-bhavam
    yati nasty atra samsayah



    SYNONYMS
    anta-kale--at the end of life; ca--also; mam--unto Me; eva--certainly; smaran--remembering; muktva--quitting; kalevaram--the body; yah--he who; prayati--goes; sah--he; mat-bhavam--My nature; yati--achieves; na--not; asti--there is; atra--here; samsayah--doubt.

    TRANSLATION
    And whoever, at the time of death, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 25 December 2010 at 12:51 AM.

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    Re: Hint of Eternal Damnation?

    Thanks Sahasranama. For awhile there I thought I was imagining this. Obviously I have more Scripture to read.

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    Re: Hint of Eternal Damnation?

    Pranam all

    There isnt much for me to add except how can anyone or a religion can have this notion that god would abandon part of his creation to rot in hell. How can he be called Karuna ke sagar (ocean of mercy) if he were to cast someone permanently in such a position ? It is not possible thankfully Lord Krishna does not say so.

    This is what he says unambiguously.

    ye yatha mam prapadyante
    tams tathaiva bhajamy aham
    mama vartmanuvartante
    manusyah partha sarvasah

    All of them--as they surrender unto Me--I reward accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Prtha. 4.11

    What is more, even if we are destined to tato yanty adhamam gatim through our own karma we are never alone as he says

    isvarah sarva-bhutanam
    hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
    The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna,

    Lets face it our destination is carved up by our own desires and karma what we remember is what we desire the most all through out our existence it not as if I will remember god at the time of death and bingo I will be liberated

    yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
    tyajaty ante kalevaram
    tam tam evaiti kaunteya
    sada tad-bhava-bhavitah

    Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. 8.6

    And finally here what he says

    nadatte kasyacit papam
    na caiva sukrtam vibhuh
    ajnanenavrtam jnanam
    tena muhyanti cantata

    Nor does the Supreme Lord assume anyone's sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge. 5.15

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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