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Thread: Newbie Questions

  1. #1

    Newbie Questions

    Hi, I'm new to reading the Bhagavad Gita but not completely new to these ideas. Also, I'm not Hindu...

    Anyway, I have some questions and thoughts I'd love to hear what people think of. Some may be naive or silly, but they seem real to me.

    1. Why does Krishna (or the universe or whatever) care if we practice the things that bring Moksha? Why is there an affirmative push by a deity towards these qualities?

    2. Conversely, why does Krishna (or the univese or whatever) actively punish those who do not achieve Moksha in this life with a worse incarnation? "Life after life I cast those who are malicious, hateful, cruel and degraded into the wombs of those with similar demonic natures...". Why would Krishna make it harder for such people to achieve Moksha?

    3. If it is an illusion to see ourselves as separate from other people and other things, then are we not part of the lust, hate, greed (as well as love, creativity, generosity) that makes up humanity? If I see someone gratifying his or her ego with outlandish clothes and I feel happy that they're expressing themselves, am I celebrating indulgence of a false sense of self?

    4. What if the entire set of beliefs exists solely to keep people from questioning why some people are incredibly wealthy? In other words, what if this is false consciousness and mystification which serves the elites?

    5. What if Moksha itself is impossible? What if becoming one with the entire universe is in essence "exhausting" - requiring continuous effort to remain in that state? What if in turn such beings eventually ask to be returned to a body in order to rest (paradoxically)?

    Forgive me if any of these questions is silly or offensive. I found the Gita to be incredibly useful and I am now reading Gandhi's commentaries on them.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Re: Newbie Questions

    Vannakkam NormalName: Welcome to these forums. There are no silly questions. We all had such questions, born Hindu or not, and many of us still do. How they were answered varies. Because of the wide variety of belief systems within the umbrella termed Hinduism, you will always get varying answers to your questions.

    I'll give you my answers, from my personal take, which is based on a smaller sect of monistic Saiva Siddhanta within Saivism within Hinduism.

    1) It is Siva's very nature to call you back. That is the 'push' although I wouldn't call it a push. It is more a calling to destiny.

    2) I don't believe Siva punishes, although it may seem that way. Younger souls with less knowledge, not having reincarnated so many times, may seem to have arduous lives. Because of karmas created, 'rougher' lives may have to be taken, although indeed 'rougher' lives may actually be of greater benefit than easy lives. We are not here for comfort and joy, the opposite side of the coin to pain. We are here to realise the Self and continue on to moksha absolute merger with Siva.

    3) In the ultimate sense it is illusion, but in the more mundane sometimes termed relative reality sense, all is fine. The keen detached observation of others is a boon to oneself and your own progress, and not separate from that.

    4) It isn't. But I say that based on strong faith alone. Doubts dissipate with knowledge gleaned from experience.

    5) It isn't. My faith is based on the contented looks of those who have realised, all doubts having disappeared.

    Looking forward to more questions and other responses.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Newbie Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalName View Post
    Hi, I'm new to reading the Bhagavad Gita but not completely new to these ideas. Also, I'm not Hindu...

    Anyway, I have some questions and thoughts I'd love to hear what people think of. Some may be naive or silly, but they seem real to me.

    1. Why does Krishna (or the universe or whatever) care if we practice the things that bring Moksha? Why is there an affirmative push by a deity towards these qualities?

    2. Conversely, why does Krishna (or the univese or whatever) actively punish those who do not achieve Moksha in this life with a worse incarnation? "Life after life I cast those who are malicious, hateful, cruel and degraded into the wombs of those with similar demonic natures...". Why would Krishna make it harder for such people to achieve Moksha?

    3. If it is an illusion to see ourselves as separate from other people and other things, then are we not part of the lust, hate, greed (as well as love, creativity, generosity) that makes up humanity? If I see someone gratifying his or her ego with outlandish clothes and I feel happy that they're expressing themselves, am I celebrating indulgence of a false sense of self?

    4. What if the entire set of beliefs exists solely to keep people from questioning why some people are incredibly wealthy? In other words, what if this is false consciousness and mystification which serves the elites?

    5. What if Moksha itself is impossible? What if becoming one with the entire universe is in essence "exhausting" - requiring continuous effort to remain in that state? What if in turn such beings eventually ask to be returned to a body in order to rest (paradoxically)?

    Forgive me if any of these questions is silly or offensive. I found the Gita to be incredibly useful and I am now reading Gandhi's commentaries on them.

    Thanks!
    1. He cares simply becuase we have an eternal relationship with Him and He loves us and wants to reconnect that relationship.

    2. He does not punnish those who do not acheive moksha, He punnishes the evil or demonic people who are agaisnt Dharma. You dont have to work one bit for Moksha in this life and you can still git a great rebirth.

    3. This is strictly from the Advaita point of view and not all followers of Krishna are Advaitins. I am not, I follow the philosophy of simultaneous oneness and difference. This means that I am one with God qualitatively and different from God in quantity.

    4. I dont know how to answer that, as I dont even ask such a question

    5. Again, this is from the advaita point of view. Moksha is not impossible, or else Krishna would not say it is. Completely Moksha to many Vaisnavas is to serve God eternally. There is no becomming one with the universe in most Vaisnava groups, especially not mine.
    sarva-dharman parityajya
    mam ekam saranam vraja
    aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
    moksayisyami ma sucah

    Hare Krsna!

  4. #4

    Re: Newbie Questions

    Hi everyone,

    Thank you so far for your wonderful responses. I truly appreciate them.

    I have another question that I am struggling with:

    In Gandhi's commentaries on the Gita, he stresses that PHYSICAL labor is essential to the message of the Gita. Gandhi says over and over that 8 hours a day of physical labor is the only work that God wants.

    Is this a necessary conclusion? Is "intellectual work" entered into in the same spirit of "detachment from the fruits" good enough? Can yoga be considered physical labor? Merely working out in a gym?

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    Re: Newbie Questions

    Hello Normal Name... I'm not the most knowledgable person, but I'll try to answer the questions 2 and 4.

    2. What the vedic teachings made me understand (I think the Gita speaks clearly about this as well) is that our birth is determined by our state of consciousness. Imagine the following situation: a young guy is seriously mad because his girlfriend left him. Is his suffering real? Is the mental hell that he's living a palatable situation? If he didn't have any attachments to that soul incarnated as a woman, he wouldn't be suffering. So as we entangle ourselves in this material existence we create our own mental hells.

    4. What kind of wealth is greater than spiritual knowledge? How many billionaires will die without ever considering the path of self-realization? Wealth comes through good karma and getting good karma should not be the ultimate goal in life. Good karma is washed away quickly like foam on a beach shore by the unstoppable force of time.

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    Re: Newbie Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalName View Post

    4. What if the entire set of beliefs exists solely to keep people from questioning why some people are incredibly wealthy? In other words, what if this is false consciousness and mystification which serves the elites?

    5. What if Moksha itself is impossible? What if becoming one with the entire universe is in essence "exhausting" - requiring continuous effort to remain in that state? What if in turn such beings eventually ask to be returned to a body in order to rest (paradoxically)?
    Welcome to the forum NN.
    These are good questions! I personally enjoyed the answers above so will limit my reply to 4 and 5.

    Both these questions are doubts. Doubts, according to Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita are born of ignorance [BG 18.10 ]. "Ignorance" in this case means not knowing the answer (not that you choose not to know or that you are an ignorant person). Kirshna advises us to dispel these doubts [BG 5.25].

    How do we dispel doubts and remove ignorance? With answers. Krishna supplies answers to all of Arjuna's doubt and this is why the BG is a guide.

    Practically too, we need to find answers to all of our questions until a time comes when we already know the answer and we are no longer ignorant.

    4. Everything happens is the will of Krishna. The elite are elite because Krishna has willed that to be so. Those who are close to Krishna need not fear, for He removes fear [BG 10.4 - 5]. So do not waste energy considering others, instead whilst being compassionate for all, save your Self. Only when you, yourself, are saved can others be helped.


    5. Moksha whilst living is not impossible. There is no leaving of the body whilst living. Liberation from the body is mental liberation from the gunas - suffering (tamas) and desire (rajas). The body is life. Moksha is knowing that everything in life is divine and as it should be. Moksha is liberation from having to do, instead it is knowing that all that is done is being done by the Lord [BG 13.29], one becomes free forever [BG 5.28]

    ....................

    BG = Bhagavad Gita. Wording my very with translations.
    http://www.atmajyoti.org/gi_bhagavad_gita_intro.asp

  7. #7

    Re: Newbie Questions

    Thank you NormalName for posting these very important questions. I am not a Hindu, I am studying for an Advanced Diploma of Holistic Yoga Studies and I am also interrested in the answers your recieve

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    Re: Newbie Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalName View Post
    Anyway, I have some questions and thoughts I'd love to hear what people think of. Some may be naive or silly, but they seem real to me.
    Not at all silly...each day we should ask any question we have, clear out all doubt. Once this work upon doubt was finished, I had so much more time for the difficult growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalName View Post
    1. Why does Krishna (or the universe or whatever) care if we practice the things that bring Moksha? Why is there an affirmative push by a deity towards these qualities?

    Knowing that every portion of the manifested things we see around us, even you and I...are in fact a piece of the Divine. Eventually, we all will return...not because He is pushing us...but because We are. Sometimes we just need a lil nudge from our higher selves. Just as a mother will scoot you onto the school bus that first day of Kindergarten...all the while with tears in her eyes. She knows you have to grow...go out into the world to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalName View Post
    2. Conversely, why does Krishna (or the univese or whatever) actively punish those who do not achieve Moksha in this life with a worse incarnation? "Life after life I cast those who are malicious, hateful, cruel and degraded into the wombs of those with similar demonic natures...". Why would Krishna make it harder for such people to achieve Moksha?
    These beings mentioned above are still a part of us. If one fails the first grade, will you be sent back for an easier class? We will be sent back for the exact same lesson....perhaps even more intense.

    This life time I was born into a very dire situation, and yet here I am speaking with you. Never underestimate one of those beings mentioned above and their ability to transcend such things and move forward, to learn and to grow. All of us are capable of reaching the highest place and the lowest. Actions determine our location not our birth...thankfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalName View Post
    3. If it is an illusion to see ourselves as separate from other people and other things, then are we not part of the lust, hate, greed (as well as love, creativity, generosity) that makes up humanity? If I see someone gratifying his or her ego with outlandish clothes and I feel happy that they're expressing themselves, am I celebrating indulgence of a false sense of self?
    God broke us each off from His Divine Being to experience diversity, pain, joy, love, sorrow...everything this world has to offer.

    Celebrate this world...even as you move away from it. As teenagers...we change our hair color, get our nose pierced and dress in very beautiful bright colors, but as we age...we move on and mostly become more conservative. Should we admonish such shows of color and creativity which blossom from each individual piece of Shiva? I do not think so. I think we should allow those still fresh upon the path to go at their own speed and level. By feeling happy for them, you are being goodly.

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalName View Post
    4. What if the entire set of beliefs exists solely to keep people from questioning why some people are incredibly wealthy? In other words, what if this is false consciousness and mystification which serves the elites?
    To ask questions is to learn, and to me, this belief is about the quest for the ultimate knowledge. Ask and ask again, until you are wholy satisfied. This world is full of beings struggling along their path, even the richest being here, the most elite is not immune to such things. For wealth brings a host of other ills and problems one can not forsee until they have reached such a place.

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalName View Post
    5. What if Moksha itself is impossible? What if becoming one with the entire universe is in essence "exhausting" - requiring continuous effort to remain in that state? What if in turn such beings eventually ask to be returned to a body in order to rest (paradoxically)?
    This, is a question you will have to find the answer for on your own...as even if I would answer this for you....it would only be the answer I recieved and not one you would believe. Each of us come to a place of reckoning about our beliefs and it takes our own set of experiences to reach that place.

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalName View Post
    Forgive me if any of these questions is silly or offensive. I found the Gita to be incredibly useful and I am now reading Gandhi's commentaries on them.

    Thanks!
    They are not silly, they are goodly. Strive on.<3
    Last edited by NayaSurya; 14 February 2011 at 06:55 AM.

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    Re: Newbie Questions

    1- please note that BG is a conversation between krishna and arjuna and both of them were friends.
    2-people see the world in different ways.but krishna or god is same to everyone.the is the point here.
    Sarva DharmAAn Parityajya

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    Re: Newbie Questions

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast&#233; normalname,

    you ask,
    5. What if Moksha itself is impossible?
    I can see your point... yet what then do we tell all those that have lived this fullness in life already? What do we then tell the seers (ṛṣi-s) that have cognized the truth of existence and wrote it down for us to ponder ( in the upaniad-s)? This mokṣa is a real live experience ; Some may think it is a mental construct , kinda like an idea and you just need to 'get '.

    Both mental and physical functioning changes . The changes occur within the village of the senses ( the nervous system).
    That is why it takes some time for some, and a shorter time for others for this to occur. Its the re-functioning of the nervous system to be able to hold the deep silence of Infinity while at the same time of being active. This is how unique our system is, this 'machinery' can perform in that fashion.

    So for me, and I hope for others, we stand on the shoulders of the wise ( the svāmī-s, muni-s ) that point us in the right direction. Yet no matter what they 'say' we still have to 'do' to have this occurance happen. This is what is then called life - the unfoldment of this fullness.


    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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