3-yes you are. That's what geeta tries to establish through out.
4-that's a matter of opinion
5-i've asked these kind of questions to myself before. i'm sure you'll get your answers as well.
BHAVANI TVAM
3-yes you are. That's what geeta tries to establish through out.
4-that's a matter of opinion
5-i've asked these kind of questions to myself before. i'm sure you'll get your answers as well.
Sarva DharmAAn Parityajya
Devakāma
I'm only going to tackle questions 2 and 4, and asking the reader to keep in mind I've not yet read the Gita, so am only giving thoughts and impressions rather than a learned opinion.
Conversely, why does Krishna (or the universe or whatever) actively punish those who do not achieve Moksha in this life with a worse incarnation? "Life after life I cast those who are malicious, hateful, cruel and degraded into the wombs of those with similar demonic natures...". Why would Krishna make it harder for such people to achieve Moksha?
I think I see what you're saying: that being reborn to those with 'similar demonic natures' might make one's next time around even more difficult, by miring a person in degradation? But perhaps not...
I've been receiving lessons lately about my flaws by seeing them writ large in the stories of Sanatana Dharma, ranging from the Puranas to the religious TV serials, in which some of my worst habits are blatantly demonstrated. I'll catch myself shaking my head at a character, and then start laughing at myself, realising that I do the same things. Sometimes we condemn others' actions - as human beings we can be very quick to judge others - but how can we identify someone else's character flaw so quickly, unless it's a flaw we share and thus recognise? That realisation of I'm the same can be a lightning-flash into the heart.
Geometry was one of my worst subjects in school, and my greatest help came from a fellow student who wasn't much better than me. We muddled through the subject together; had a brilliant student tried to tutor me, the words likely would have sailed right over my head. Likewise, during my darkest times, truly good people have seemed irritatingly righteous, but I've learned valuable lessons from trying to understand folks I once considered 'degraded' or 'immoral.'
Perhaps, then, there's a wisdom in this type of rebirth that isn't immediately obvious.
What if the entire set of beliefs exists solely to keep people from questioning why some people are incredibly wealthy? In other words, what if this is false consciousness and mystification which serves the elites?
This is an excellent question, and one I encountered from a friend several years ago while I was reading and discussing the Tao Te Ching. He had the same perspective: "Don't resist, go with the flow, accept what is...well, I guess those leaders never had to worry about a revolution, eh?" It is very threatening to the ego, a truly scary feeling, to think about being taken advantage of by others. Nobody wants to be exploited by power-hungry maniacs, and certainly, concepts like karma could potentially serve an elite who desired to stay at the top. But...the top of what? The top of a pile of emptiness labeled 'money' and 'power' and consisting of nothing that the wise recognise as worthwhile. Of him whom the priests regard as Soma, no one drinks...
If you believe the sacred texts to be of God, then the question of their support for human authority dissolves.
If you believe that they might be of deliberate (or deluded) human construction with a less-than-noble goal, though, then consider: Would poets, priests, and government go through so much trouble to convince people that their true wealth lies elsewhere, and if so, would the idea endure for this long without any deeper truth to it?
In Sanatana Dharma, God is Supreme, and is the ultimate experience and goal; human wealth is meaningless against that Treasure. Some tenets of the religion could create a population of obedient people content to remain oppressed, but the vast spiritual ocean of this religion seems more likely to create strong, resilient people who don't give one wit for money or titles. In other words, the follower of Sanatana Dharma is freed from fear of wealth and power; s/he is likely to highly esteem, follow, and adore those who bestow spiritual wealth. Religion as a social blueprint could backfire in a big way by encouraging societal breakdown, i.e. "Forget these silly temporal rulers who have nothing worth aspiring to; let's follow this ash-covered guy into the forest! Who needs farms and armies when we have God?"
Regardless of a doctrine's original authorship or motivation, a religion endures if it has merit, if it teaches human beings a better way to live and helps connect them to the Supreme through profound and joyful personal experience. This I certainly see in Sanatana Dharma. Once I realised how scared I was to look ridiculous or nave before others, and how fearful I was of being taken advantage of, then admitted and faced those worries, it was easier to see religion as an ally instead of a threat. Questioning is vital in seeking the truth, so I think the best answer I can give to your question is, "Ask your heart as well as your sociology books," if that makes sense?
Indraneela
===
"I wait the power of one like thee, O Indra, gifts of a Helper such as thou art, Hero.
Strong, Mighty God, dwell with me now and ever."
Om Indrāya Namaḥ.
Om Namaḥ Śivāya.
What a wonderful response (as have been all the responses to my questions).Originally Posted by Indraneela
Thank you for that!
Fellow human
1. Why does Krishna (or the universe or whatever) care if we practice the things that bring Moksha? Why is there an affirmative push by a deity towards these qualities?
The deties, temples, churches, rituals, miracles, etc are the initial means to develop the devotion, faith, belief, calmness of mind, focussing the mind, etc to enable the mind to receive the right knowledge, analyse and assimilate.
The path to moksha is to develop Bhakti (devotion & faith), do karma (selfish karma - then graduate to selfless karma) to cleanse your mind, get knowledge under proper Guru, question & analyse, assimilate.
It is same for all reasearchers, PhD students. The theory of life and creation is more abstract than the material world researchers and PhD subjects.
2. Conversely, why does Krishna (or the univese or whatever) actively punish those who do not achieve Moksha in this life with a worse incarnation? "Life after life I cast those who are malicious, hateful, cruel and degraded into the wombs of those with similar demonic natures...". Why would Krishna make it harder for such people to achieve Moksha?
There is no intervention from God. God has only provided the life to the body. What the body- mind complex does, it faces the consequences of that. This is the rule of karma. What you are today is the decision taken by you in past, what you will be in future depends on what decision you take at present.
It is like power is the same but fan rotates, bulb glows, radio speaks, etc. But power has nothing to do with what each does.
The rule of rebirths takes into account our accumulated karma.
The rule being presented by Krishna is the rule of karma. A deeper understanding of the subject will help.
Again as I said, we should study scriptures under a Guru. Gita is compiled from Upanishads. To understand Gita, we need to study upanishads, the epics, srimad bhagavatam also.
3. If it is an illusion to see ourselves as separate from other people and other things, then are we not part of the lust, hate, greed (as well as love, creativity, generosity) that makes up humanity? If I see someone gratifying his or her ego with outlandish clothes and I feel happy that they're expressing themselves, am I celebrating indulgence of a false sense of self?
The minds with body or without body are all uniquely positioned in the journey towards moksha. The status of the mind state can only be altered through karma. This karma again is attached to the authority to take decision. Human lives are endowed with this power so they have choices which enables them to take decisions to alter their path. Other forms of life do not have this opportunity (even if it is there - that is very limited).
Having this choice, I can alter my destiny and the state of my mind. More and more I clean up my mind of the ego, desire, lust, anger, envy, etc, the mind prepares itself to receive the TRUE knowledge. The scriptures become more understandable and meaningful. Many a times it results in enlightenment.
The material world is to be used as slave and not allowed to enslave us.
4. What if the entire set of beliefs exists solely to keep people from questioning why some people are incredibly wealthy? In other words, what if this is false consciousness and mystification which serves the elites?
Say you studied hard or did hard work or have taken right decisions to succeed in your life. You become rich. That is your karma. Now some hard work is seen in this life and some remain hidden in past lives.
Another guy never exterted himself and remained in same status or have spent away the fortune he received. Then again it is karma.
Just like material world (where we have logic for every action), there is logic for all life and creation. Actually material world is a subset of the other one.
Again wealth does not mean happiness, peace, etc. Saints or wise people are more happy than rich people.
5. What if Moksha itself is impossible? What if becoming one with the entire universe is in essence "exhausting" - requiring continuous effort to remain in that state? What if in turn such beings eventually ask to be returned to a body in order to rest (paradoxically)?
The mind is like an ionised particle. Whereas an ion has 2 types of charge +ve or -ve. Mind has quite a few. Now for the particle if the charge intensity is high the chances are more that it will get attached to another complimentary charged particle faster. The lesser the intensity more is the time in free state. If it become neutral, it remains free.
Same is the case with mind. The karmaphals (the results out of karma which is measured out of the index of a few parameters like ego, desire, envy, anger, lust, etc) have their intensities. Higher they are, the chances of getting attached to a complimentary body is faster. At moksha the mind becomes neutral and remains free.
If you observe all over the world the religions have pointed towards this in different ways. This has been validated over and over again by the great spiritual scientists. But in other religions it has been stated by one person. The theory os so vast that it might not be possible for one person to provide the whole knowledge.
The TRUTH is one. People have explained to achieve it differently.
Hinduism, that way, is a knowledge databank of enumerous saints who have tread the path of knowledge and contributed in different ways and different aspects of the whole TRUTH.
Love and best wishes
Hi all, I have another question: In his commentaries on the Gita, Gandhi stresses the concept of work very heavily.
In fact, he essentially says that manual labor is what is meant by work - that we should put in 8 hours a day of actual physical labor to be doing work as is meant by the Gita.
Should we take this literally? Do you consider "mind" work - say, professional labor that is undertaken assiduously, without major attachment to the results - a worthy form of labor?
Fellow human
The three phases of attitude Tamas, Rajas and Satvik are the way one evolves.
As tamas is at the bottom of the pyramid, it has the biggest mass. But tamas cannot go to the final destination of satvik without going thorugh the rajas.
Tamas is the part where the mind is lazy, selfish, etc.
Rajas is the active mind (starts with selfishly active and then moves to selflessly active).
As you can see the faceless humanity with a few spots of sparks. A few spots of wisdom.
We need to move more people to the rajas state - so that we have lots and lots of mental changes from tamas to selfishly active to selflessly active.
Only then they will be ready to move to stavik state.
So the message is same from Gandhi to Vivekananda and also Jesus. All have stressed on the rajas part. That is the Karma part. Do work. Do for yourself and then move on to do for others.
Only through this the mind will be cleansed and be ready for the next level.
Love and best wishes
udumvss138
1.)Hey, There is no such thing as naive in spiritual thoughts. So 'Hurrah!'.... Why does God care if you get Moksha or not?
hmmm.... I have a question, 'Why does a mother want her child to be happy and grow very well, with nutrition to become a good adult, why does she care for her child's safety? Why does she strive for the best possible education for her child Or in other words, why does she love her child soo much?' Its simply because she is the child's mother, she loves her child, the child is an integral part of her and she'd even give her life for the child's benefit, its the crazy love of hers! Ask a mother, ask NayaSurya. God is the mother/father of the soul.
2.) Punishment? I remember an instant when I was 3. There was an oil lamp in front of god's photos. I was playing near it and was playing with paper and fire too. My mother told me, 'Don't touch the fire. Its bad, it'll hurt.' I was 3 (i think), I never experienced a burn before. I was playing near the fire and by mistake, my hand got burnt! and got a scar, its here, even now. Oooch!
I am a bad learner, I never used to listen to her.
There was this another instant, Whenever (I was 4 probably), I'd play on the edge of a curled up mattress or charpai with bed on its one end and cupboard on the other end as its support, I used to climb on it and dance! (lol!) My mother once came across this, She was so scared, her face turned red, she quickly took me on her arms and kept me on the ground. She then spoke... 'If you climb it again and dance on it, you'll have had it on me, I will beat u and give u bruises on ur bottom. Don't climb it, you fall down and get hurt and start bleeding, please don't do that. She went inside. The monkey climbed up again. 'Nane superman Tatadaa tatadaa! (I'm superman tatada tatadaa).' I was so happy and immediately, the charpai began to rock under my weight, and ..........
**** Bham!!!!!!!!!!**** I fell down..... 'Uuuuuaaaaaaah! uuuuaaaah! The next thing I know, I was in the hospital, with stitches on my forehead, the scar is still here.
My point is, god doesn't punish, he just tries to help us, we think its punishment, but its not so. If he punishes, would it not hurt him more in the first place? He never punishes, he tries to help us.
Ice creams are tasty, when we eat them, we catch cold, we suffer, what does 'mother' do? Get medicines and feed it to her child, why does the child feel, that the medicine is punishment? Its the child's fault in the first place.
3.)No, the lust, hate, greed (as well as love, creativity, generosity) that makes up humanity is a part of us, not the reverse. It is we who choose, we have the choice to love or to hate. Love is by you, for you, from you and ultimate you, yourself! Love, be on a righteous path, the fog (illusion) will clear itself by the effect of sun's warmth (love or devotion, with knowledge and goood deeds). As NayaSurya said, you're happiness indicates ur good will, nurture it, grow it and it will nurture you and your growth. Self expression is a good thing as far as I know, and I could be wrong. I'm saying that its a good thing, because, their loves ones can see these expressions and rectify them, we all learn to fall before we walk.
4&5) Doubts are born, just to die!
Solving doubts such as these is good.
If you don't believe them, experiment yourself and see whether the results match or not, you'll find they do. Well, I did.
You ask, whether 'Moksha' is impossible and whether its 'exhausting'
Dude... woaw! stop! Haven't you heard the saying, 'The word impossible is found in the dictionary of fools.' Its not exhausting, it seems so, once you are there, you are in bliss and peace. Trust me, its sooooo 'AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!' Observe the reply given by NayaSurya on the 5th question. Nice *thumbs up*....
6.) About Gandhi's view. He is right. Karma(In this context, doing ones duty) is the only way to get knowledge, inturn to get lucky and get Moksha. It is everyone's duty to do their professional work. How can a pyre burn with fire, if there is no fuel and oxygen to burn on? You need to do physical exercise seperately for about some time in a day (playing soccer or a sport and the time depends on one's food and environment), if it is not a part of your professional work, just to keep a good health, again to do Karma, to attain Moksha.
Wow! I'd wonder who'd win in a competition of geniuses, Gandhi or Einstein?
It would not be wrong to call Gandhi, a prophet, or rishi, or kavi, or a great hero, its not exaggeration. His impact was not just on India, but on the whole wide world and we can feel it even today, he was a main influence on King Martin Luther of America, the black freedom fighter.
AUM NAMAH SHIVAYA
SARVAM SHIVAMAYAM
Last edited by upsydownyupsy mv ss; 30 October 2010 at 02:48 AM.
I don't know who I am, nor what I am.
I don't know what I need to know.
I don't know who you are, nor what you are.
All I know is that you love me, Oh Sarvathma.
Lead me on the righteous path, so that I may reach you.
I have another question (I'm better at questions than answers) tangentially related to the Gita (I figured it's better to keep my comments in this thread).
Essentially, my question is this: does it "count" if we are better able to detach ourselves from the "fruits" of our actions as we age?
Meaning, age bestows at least some inherent wisdom, it lessens the passions of the body, the "novelty" of life is reduced. Thus, does aging confer some "unearned" steps towards enlightenment, along the path that the Gita outlines?
In my own situation, I find it easier to have less strong attachments to ego, emotion, others, and so on. But this doesn't feel "earned" so much as simply "given" by the biomedical process of aging.
Any thoughts on this?
bhaktar
Vannakkam NormalName:
I think what you say is true only if you are on the path consciously. I've also been pondering on this topic. I read very recently a quote from my Guru that stuck with me. it was something about learning your progression by looking back at what you used to be.
I recall meeting a classmate from my middle school years about 5 years after we moved to different schools. After a few minutes of conversation he stared at me and said, "You've changed!" I can't remember my reply, but I do remember thinking, "Yes, and you haven't."
So I think there is some projecting of your own ideas going on here out into the general populace. I know some men my age who are perhaps more attached to money and lust now than they were when they were eighteen. Dirty old men, grumpy old men, horny old women, for lack of a more polite way.
From this observation, I would definitely say, "Yes, it counts!" It's not just chronological age that helps with detachment, but the conscious effort as well. At least this is my personal take.
Aum Namasivaya
I have two more questions... but you're spiritual people so you can't get sick of me... yet!
A. Is the desire for Moksha still a kind of desire and attachment? The desire for peace, to not experience the sorrows of life again?
B. My personal characteristics are in line with how Gandhi and the Gita describe "Brahmin" (certainly I am not actually a Brahmin nor am I trying to sound noble. But I am sort of intellectual, spiritual, of the mind, etc). Yet my own personal career is in business (highly ethical, a business which does not harm anyone and actually does a little good, but it IS commerce). Am I on a wrong path, as the Gita so heavily emphasizes the right work for one's life?
I'll probably have more questions. Thanks for the answers!
There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks