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Thread: Self-realization in Vaishnavism

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    Self-realization in Vaishnavism

    Namaste,

    It is my understanding that Shaiva and Advaita Hinduism are very much based in self-realization of the soul as either part of the Supreme Being or one and the same with it, and a large part of Shaiva teaching and practice is focused on this. As far as I understand it, Vaishnava Hinduism does not focus on this much, if at all, and the focus is more on God as outside oneself rather than God within (if there is such a teaching in Vaishnavism).

    What is the reason for this? Many of the Upanishads and Vedic literature focus on the relationship between the soul and God and realisation of this relationship (whatever that might be), and even if this is acknowledged in Vaishnavism the focus seems to be on god as a Personality rather than the divine within. I am pretty sure, though not completely, that vaishnava does teach that there is a part of God within, I think it is what Prabhupada called the "supersoul". But the focus seems to be on Bhakti rather than realization of this "supersoul" as part of Vishnu/Krishna/Narayana. I could be wrong - does vaishnavism teach realization of the soul?

    I want to stress that my understanding of vaishnavism is extremely limited, and even then it is based on ISKCON and Gaudiya Vaishnava, and Srila Prabhupadas commentary on the Bhagavad Gita. Any misunderstandings are my fault, and this post is not meant to criticise or demean Vaishnavas in any way.

    Wilfred.

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    Re: Self-realization in Vaishnavism

    Hari bol!

    There is a concept of "Antrayami" in vaishnavaism and this is much required model to explain entire vedic texts and Advaita Darshna created a super layer for its Darshna ignoring this Antrayami as Vyavahartika and Paramartika. So coming from Advaitic background, it is hard to understand the concept of "Antrayami" then the BagavatRupa as the ultimate independent reality.

    The understanding of "Self" is different for an Advaitin and Vaishnava. A vaishnava believes in Self-Realization primarily in two steps viz. realization of him being not the body but the Soul and then the ultimate realization of him and his relationship, dependencies with the Bagavan. Atma-Paramatma-Bagavan is the realization process steps. Advaitin on the other hand stress on realization of Atman to Brahman realization which is (considered ) impersonal. Four authentic lineage of Vaishnavaism imparts the knowledge of relationship between this Atman and Bagavan, both being distinct and Bagavan being the only independent entity and atman being always dependent on that Bagavan for its very existence.

    So, such Bagavan is "With In" you as Paramatma (Antrayami) and outside you as well as "Bagavan" ( BG Statements are immediate proof for this. ) and have His energies undifferentiated from Him as Brahman.

    "Why" will be big question and might lead us in to lengthy debates of Advaita Vs Vaishnavaism which has happened for centuries already. A simple why is, Advaita teaches its own philosophy on its own Authority rather than 100% vedic Authority ( by considering few vaks as Upyoga Vaks and rest as not - useful statements for realization). Shaivaism does not follow Vedic texts 100% and later schools of thought added lot of "literature" to make it look authentic vedic but we are still left with lot of inconsistencies with such additions. Though, Shaivaism emphasize greatly on Bhakthi fused with karma and Gnana as the means to Salvation, Advaita has only one way of Gnana as the ultimate means and other means are secondary or steps towards Gnana. So, it is not always correct to view Shaivaism as Advaita and Advaita as Shaivaism as they are two great branches of Hinduism one being a religion and other being a Philosophical system.

    So, Vaishnavaism teaches and shows the way for Self Realization and "Divine with in" but categorically different from Advaita and different from Shaivaism in terms of who that Ultimate Bhagavan is, which is Lord Vishnu for Vaishnavas.

    Hare Krishna!

  3. #3

    Re: Self-realization in Vaishnavism

    Vaishnavism also contains several schools of thought, not only Vishishtadvaita and Dvaita but also the Achintya Bheda Abheda of Caitanya, the Shuddhadvaita of Vallabhacharya, the Dvaitadvaita of Nimbarkacharya, and others. Other than Dvaita, they all show both the the side of the coin that is God within and God without (and beyond). I think Bhagavad Ramanujacharya put it best when he said Vishnu is both immanent and transcendent.
    O Sriman Narayana, immanent like the white of milk and transcendent like a watch-maker independent of a watch, I worship thee. OM NAMO NARAYANAYA.

  4. #4

    Re: Self-realization in Vaishnavism

    I would first like to say I agree with grames.

    Also, in Vaishnavism we are not as restricted by only Advaita, Shiva Siddhanta, and Paradvaita as philosophical outlooks. We have not only Vishishtadvaita and Dvaita, but also the Achintya Bheda Abheda of Caitanya, the Shuddhadvaita of Vallabhacharya, and the Dvaitadvaita of Nimbarkacharya. All of these except for Madhvacharya's Dvaita acknowledge Vishnu as being both in His creation and independent of it. I think the overall Vaishnava view is summed up best by our Bhagavad Ramanuja who said Sriman Narayana is both immanent in His creation and transcendent of it.
    O Sriman Narayana, immanent like the white of milk and transcendent like a watch-maker independent of a watch, I worship thee. OM NAMO NARAYANAYA.

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    Re: Self-realization in Vaishnavism

    My thanks to Grames and Arjun!

    The understanding of "Self" is different for an Advaitin and Vaishnava. A vaishnava believes in Self-Realization primarily in two steps viz. realization of him being not the body but the Soul and then the ultimate realization of him and his relationship, dependencies with the Bagavan.
    Interesting. I wonder, if you have time, you could "prove" this position from vedic scripture, or point me towards where I can find out more. I have not heard of this position in the translations/commentary of upanishads (and so on) that I have read before.

    Wilfred Hather.

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    Re: Self-realization in Vaishnavism

    self realisation is the notion that your body is an evil spirit you are meant to tame and teach. you have to do this subconsciencely because the spirit will never believe someone who thinks in duality.
    realise it's your world and no one can break in or out without your desire. never care, be truly alone and mindful of god.

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    Re: Self-realization in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by charlebs View Post
    self realisation is the notion that your body is an evil spirit you are meant to tame and teach. you have to do this subconsciencely because the spirit will never believe someone who thinks in duality.
    realise it's your world and no one can break in or out without your desire. never care, be truly alone and mindful of god.
    Namastá Charlebs
    Permit me to add that it is not necessary (or prescribed by any scripture I have read) to see the body as an evil spirit. Rather the body is divine! In order to understand why it is divine the guru's and scriptures speak of discrimination (vivek) through negating everything that is subject to change or transformation, such as the body, thoughts/memories, flowers etc. Eventually through the practices of meditation, discrimination or "neti-neti" one may arrive at knowing that which is changeless and divine: atman. At this point one will recognise that everything has its correct place and purpose, including the changeful body.

    Best wishes!

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    Re: Self-realization in Vaishnavism

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by charlebs View Post
    self realisation is the notion that your body is an evil spirit you are meant to tame and teach. you have to do this subconsciencely because the spirit will never believe someone who thinks in duality.
    realise it's your world and no one can break in or out without your desire. never care, be truly alone and mindful of god.
    I see this a bit differently...
    Self realization or knowledge of the Self (ātmajñāna) comes from full-consciousness. I see no method of doing this with the sub-conscious , something I cannot manage or define.

    This body is the charriot - It takes its command from the driver. I do not view it as evil , yet as a wonderful piece of equiment that is no different then the universe. The wise say , as above so below. What we find in the universe is also found in us (the tattva's all 36 of them - from a kaśmir śaivism point of view).


    The pickle is we associate only with the body and have fogotten the core of our own Being, our Selves. This is the unfoldment that is to occur - re-membering who we are - some like to call pratyabhijñāhṛdayaṁ¹.


    praṇām

    words
    This word pratyabhijñāhṛdayaṁ means the re-recognition of ones Self
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Self-realization in Vaishnavism

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    I see this a bit differently...
    Self realization or knowledge of the Self (ātmajñāna) comes from full-consciousness. I see no method of doing this with the sub-conscious , something I cannot manage or define.

    This body is the charriot - It takes its command from the driver. I do not view it as evil , yet as a wonderful piece of equiment that is no different then the universe. The wise say , as above so below. What we find in the universe is also found in us (the tattva's all 36 of them - from a kaśmir śaivism point of view).


    The pickle is we associate only with the body and have fogotten the core of our own Being, our Selves. This is the unfoldment that is to occur - re-membering who we are - some like to call pratyabhijñāhṛdayaṁ¹.


    praṇām

    words
    This word pratyabhijñāhṛdayaṁ means the re-recognition of ones Self
    Perhaps an intellectual will say: I'm not attached to my body... I focus on my studies.

    What about the mental body? Is it also included in this bodily attachment?

    How should we view it?

    Om Tat Sat

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    Re: Self-realization in Vaishnavism

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    Perhaps an intellectual will say: I'm not attached to my body... I focus on my studies.

    What about the mental body? Is it also included in this bodily attachment?
    How should we view it?
    Om Tat Sat
    I would say, I am happy to hear you focus on your studies. Now let me ask a question. When you study, are you experiencing the silence of the Self while you read? There is you, the Self, and there is the book of words.
    Do only the words and ideas fill your mind and awareness? If the answer is yes, then one has not yet seperated Self from non-Self.

    When you read and emotions take you here-and-there in your readings? In your thoughts ? If the answer is yes, then the Self and non-Self have not become part of one's experience.

    If one wishes to add in the mind and the senses as part of the system, that is fine. Within the chariott there is the driver, and there is the horses ( the senses) , and there are the reins.

    praṇām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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