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Thread: bhaya or fear ...

  1. #1
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    bhaya or fear ...

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté



    I have been thinking of fear as of late, trying to understand this.

    It is called bhaya भय , fear. It is rooted (√) bhī fear , alarm, dread, apprehension. bhayaṃ is 'to have fear of'.


    Do you understand this emotion? What is it grounded in? If you follow this emotion back to its source, what is the fear of? Some may say harm - some form of harm , no?

    Fear is as far as I can tell is part of the human condition. I do not think it is a learned response. Could be physical harm, mental harm (serious stress), financial harm, emotional harm ( loss of a loved one, or the inability or ~possess~ a loved one).
    In the cases I have offered it is rooted in loss ( loss of heath, well being, friends, family emotions ( loss of love, etc)).


    So, at the root of fear is loss perhaps? If there is loss, it suggests or infers , my inference here, that one is fearing not being whole or complete in some way shape or form. With this loss, I will be less then i was before.


    The bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad¹ tells us the following: Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati - Fear is born of duality.
    So our fear, bewilderment, is structured in moha¹ perhaps?


    Do you have any thoughts on this? Has anyone NOT experienced fear? I have found that overcoming a ~fear~ has given me great strength. Why so? As I see it , it gave me a new sense of control I did not possess before-hand. This control turned into comfort, yet it was there all the time ( again moha at work).

    praām

    words and references
    • bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad - puruṣavidha-brāhmaṇa, 2nd śloka:
        • dvitiyad or dvitia द्वित- 2nd or two
        • bhayam or bhaya भय - fear , alarm dread apprehension
          ( rooted in bhī to fear for , be anxious about )
        • vai an emphasis and affirmation , generally placed after a word and laying stress on it (it is usually translatable by 'indeed' , 'truly' , 'certainly'
        • bhavati or bhava भव arising or produced from , being in

    • moha मोह - loss of consciousness, bewilderment , delusion of mind preventing the discernment of truth and leading men to believe in the reality of worldly objects.
    Last edited by yajvan; 20 November 2010 at 06:54 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: bhaya or fear ...

    Interesting post yajvan ji,

    When I think of the word bhaya, I have to remember this from the Srimad Bhagavatam: yadvibheti svayam bhayam. That of which even fear is afraid.

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    Re: bhaya or fear ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    Interesting post yajvan ji,

    When I think of the word bhaya, I have to remember this from the Srimad Bhagavatam: yadvibheti svayam bhayam. That of which even fear is afraid.
    These paradigmatic concepts of Bhagavan are very interesting.

    Like he can bend material concepts because he transcends them (and is the base of them in the first place).

    Also concepts as being bigger than the biggest and smaller than the smallest. So as I try to get a mental picture of this concept I see the supreme expanding infinitely (Brahman) and permeating even the tiniest space (Paramatma).

  4. #4

    Re: bhaya or fear ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    So as I try to get a mental picture of this concept I see the supreme expanding infinitely (Brahman) and permeating even the tiniest space (Paramatma).
    Excuse me, what?

  5. #5

    Re: bhaya or fear ...

    I think this is an excellent thread.

    As for now, my thoughts on this subject is.

    Abrahamic religions use "fear" to create and emphasize the distinction between the worshipper and their "God" and for their dumb masses to follow and stay within their cult.

    When you remove the element of fear in their religion. Nothing much is left. Quite a weak cowardly thing for a Supreme Being to do imo. There is even a passage within the Quran where "Allah" asks people to leave those who reject its message so that it can punish them. -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1gGvDK9nCs

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    Re: bhaya or fear ...

    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté kumar_das (et.al)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumar_Das View Post
    Quite a weak cowardly thing for a Supreme Being to do imo.
    Yet we know better, correct? It is not the supreme that imposes this constraint, but done at the human level.

    That said, I encourge the HDF reader to take a look at the taittirīya upaniṣad, brāhmaṇa vallī ( 7th and 8th section , some call prapāṭhaka or khaṇḍa for section). It specifically talks of fear and fearlessness.

    The 8th prapāṭhaka says,
    Through fear of Him the wind blows; through fear of Him rises the sun; Through fear of Him fire and indra function and the 5th, death functions ( or proceeds).

    Where is the wisdom here, what is the true meaning of this?

    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 05 December 2010 at 05:10 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: bhaya or fear ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumar_Das View Post
    Excuse me, what?
    Kumar... When I read things, be them concrete or subtle I always try to picture them. I happen to have an extremely image oriented mind.

    So when I read this saying about God being smaller than the smallest and bigger than the biggest, I see the images I described. I'm not sure if the understanding of the concepts of Brahman and Paramatma based on this view is wrong, so I'm open to stand corrected, but I was merely sharing what happens in my mind.


  8. #8

    Re: bhaya or fear ...

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~

    namast kumar_das (et.al)



    Yet we know better, correct?
    Sorry I do not get you here.

    It is not the supreme that imposes this constraint, but done at the human level.


    Definitely. Which is why it such a weak type of thing to have one's spirituality based upon. This is done by humans and works only on the human level if you are weak enough to be affected by it of course.

    The human level of "fear" is done through harshness/severity along with enforcement. Its an attempt to create a restriction of some sort. To prevent you from going against what the inducer of fear wants you to not do.

    The fear of the Supreme is different. It comes naturally. The Supreme doesn't "go its way out". It(fear of Supreme) isn't a Tyrannical fear. Its something that is logical and accepted willingly.

    The element of this is generally within Shaivism. And Lord Shiva's vahana, the bull, Nandi, represents the reckless, wild, untameable beast that is completely surrendered/submitted.

    Ishvara is different from a "Tyrant" because Ishvara is always in an Exalted state of Being. Everything is under His control. He doesn't require anything from anyone.

    Every other creature struggles to retain control, to have power and authority and to make others submit to itself.

    Take the "laws" enacted by some so-called governments. They do this to have some type of order and stability and they do all they can to maintain it.

    If Ishvara so-willed, He can strip them off anytime.

    The Abrahamic deities expand this attempt to domesticate people to the extreme extent they possibly can.

    Many people talk about how Abrahamic religions are egalitarian etc. Really? Yes only amongst members of their cult. But you see the division between believers vs non-believers of their deity being greater. And the insulting and chastisement of non-believers as well.

    You don't want to have the same type of human weaknesses exhibited in a deity that you worship.

    Instead you want to be your weakest towards Ishvara.

    Ishvara is well-aware of us humans, our natures. He reaches out to us. And He most certainly does not have to resort to the means we see humans trying so hard in accomplishing what they want. There is a difference. That's how you know when God is speaking and not petty humans.

    This is the main thing that puts many educated Christians, Muslims off and draws them towards Atheism. That excessive obnoxious weakness of humans in struggling to possess control over others and the measures they take to ensure to this. That's why ex-Christians and ex-Muslims have so much relief when they fully deconvert.


    That said, I encourge the HDF reader to take a look at the taittirīya upaniṣad, brāhmaṇa vallī ( 7th and 8th section , some call prapāṭhaka or khaṇḍa for section). It specifically talks of fear and fearlessness.

    The 8th prapāṭhaka says,
    Through fear of Him the wind blows; through dear of Him rises the sun; Through fear of Him fire and indra function and the 5th, death functions ( or proceeds).

    Where is the wisdom here, what is the true meaning of this?

    praṇām
    Loss brings pain. And pain induces fear.

    Fear is an emotional-psychological biological phenomena that repels. We may express this metaphorically as well when describing otherwise.

    Irrational fear also cripples the mind. It stuns all rational process and inhibits intellectual growth.

    All things meet their end in what they fear.

    Whatever causes fear itself meets its end in Ishvara. Namely Agni, Indra and Death.

  9. #9
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    Re: bhaya or fear ...

    With some of my life experiments and experiences I have been pondering about the difference between the words fear and afraid even though these are mostly synonymous. I think fear is a natural, useful, automatic reaction to certain stimuli and often necessary to our sense of self preservation. It is an emotional response to the dangers.

    I am no expert in BG. This is my limited understanding. In BG ch 1 verses 28-30 fear is well explained by Vyasa. Quivering of limbs of body, drying of mouth, trembling of the body, standing of the hair, slipping of weapon from the hand, burning of skin are the very descriptive physical signs of panic or getting scared or frightened. His body is really shaking, He mentions this twice! Hyperventilation in response to fear can make one's mouth dry. In fear our autonomic helpful system will be in full swing, as we read Arjuna's palms sweaty and slippery and his bow is dropping as he no longer can hold it. His skin is burning as it gets flushed. I do not know why Vyasa gives such a vivid description of fear here. Fear is something that happens when we actually encounter to an unpleasant situation.
    Being afraid is something that happens before the encounter and that may not even happen.
    Arjuna despite being a great warrior, at first he seems to react with full fear when he looks at the powerful enemy that consisted of Bhishma, Drona and Karna assembled to fight. I guess this is natural and it reveals his basic human response regardless of one's strength and courage. One writer puts it not having fear means "Brain damaged".

    Now I do not think Krishna criticizes Arjunas fear.
    Fear is a basic survival mechanism, but Krishna criticizes about his "grieving" which is nothing about the fear he expressed earlier. Arjuna first naturally fears, then he grieves, and he grieves even before his enemies get killed! Grieving usually follows after some one has died. Please help my understanding here. Is the word grieve is more to do with the word, "being afraid."? As we read further Arjuna tells Krishna that he is afraid of the Karmic effect of sin of killing or violence, (cause and effect) he would rather become a Sanyasi! Krishna tells Arjuna not to grieve for one can only kill body not to the soul. Does that mean not to be afraid? Fear is a manifestation of our basic instinct for preservation. It is a reaction to a threat to our life, the response to a real or perceived danger. If I am about to be hit by a car or I begin to feel the earth under my feet, this is the current fear quake. These "scares" arise suddenly and without warning and cease when the danger has passed, leaving, if anything, just a bad memory.

    To be afraid or to be anxious or apprehensive of some thing or some event is different from the actual fear and here I see the connection with the Upanishad quote, Yaj mentioned in his post. Are there two separate words in Sanskrit to describe fear and afraid?
    If you permit me, more in my future post about the duality and being afraid.

    Love VC

  10. #10
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    Re: bhaya or fear ...

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    The bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad tells us the following: Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati - Fear is born of duality.
    [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=3]
    That really hits the nail in the head; the moment there is separation, fear arises. Some also say that fear arises due to avidya or ignorance. Yet, ignorance of what? That ultimately there is separation between the Creator and the Creation!

    Namaskar.

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